Sunwing President Mark Williams on Foreign pilots

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Foreign pilots enable growth, by Sunwing President Mark Williams

http://skiesmag.com/digital/2014/csv4i5/files/10.html

[BE20 Driver]

[Gino Under]

Bah, humbug!!

Gino Under

[BE20 Driver]

Apparently my picture doesn't show up properly. Let me describe it to you instead.

Picture a 4 year old girl sitting behind a lemon aid stand. The sign out front says fresh squeezed lemon aid $0.25 (in small fine print, from concentrate).
There's a cynical old man walking by the stand thinking "I'm not buying it."

[Big Pistons Forever]

I clicked on to the skies mag link that Gilles provided and I got a very blurry image and unreadable text.....and then a note "please wait as it will take a few moments to provide you with a high definition image".

Yup, for this magazine it is all about the pretty picture.

[B52]

What a terrible web site!

Here is the TEXT that is so hard to read...


The next to impossible to read TEXT is:

Column in the jumpseat

Editor’s Note:

Toronto-based Sunwing Airlines has long been criticized for employing seasonal foreign pilots though Canada’s Temporary Foreign Worker Program (TFWP), when it is alleged that Canadian pilots could fill those jobs.

Here, Sunwing president Mark Williams defends the practice and explains how it enables the airline’s continued growth.


Foreign pilots enable growth
By Mark Williams President,

Sunwing Airlines
8 www.skiesmag.com

Sunwing Airlines, a Sunwing Travel Group company, started operations in November 2005 with two B737-800s based in Toronto and a staff of around 70.

In less than 10 years, Sunwing has grown to operate 32 aircraft from 34 airports in Canada, with a peak staff of 2,000. We are a family-owned business and a Canadian success story.

Sunwing Airlines’ business involves flying customers to one of our 35 destinations in the south.

This business is highly seasonal, with over 80 per cent of our revenues earned in the six-month period between November and April. In order to manage this seasonality, Sunwing has always sent a number of our planes and pilots to Europe in the summer, to work for European leisure airlines that have a summer peak season.

And, we have always brought planes and pilots from Europe to supplement our program in the winter. Managing seasonality this way creates year round employment for Canadian pilots, which is important for our pilots and for Sunwing.


Initially, Sunwing sent more Canadian pilots to Europe in the summer than the number of foreign pilots we brought to Canada in the winter.

During the first five years of our existence, Sunwing sent 162 more Canadian pilots to Europe than the number of foreign pilots we brought to Canada in the winter.

After the Eurozone crisis in 2009, that changed. Sunwing’s operations in winter continued to grow rapidly.

At the same time, we were not able to find additional work in Europe in the summer. That caused net pilot movements between Canada and Europe to go the other way.

Sunwing’s goal has always been to have the movement of pilots between Canada and Europe be equal.

This allows Sunwing to hire more full-time Canadian pilots, while allowing our European partners the same opportunity. There is a common misconception that Sunwing contracts foreign pilots in the winter to save money.

This is not correct.

Contracting European pilots in the winter is more expensive than training and hiring seasonal Canadian pilots.

Not only do we have to pay foreign pilots at least as much as a Canadian pilot under TFWP regulations, we have to cover their living expenses as well.

The amount we pay to cover housing, transportation and daily living expenses for a foreign pilot is almost as much as their salary.

So, a foreign pilot costs double what we would pay a Canadian to do the same work. So why do we do it? Sunwing Airlines has been growing so rapidly that we have not been able to keep up with the training demands of our winter program.

Since 2011, Sunwing has grown the number of Canadian pilots we employ from 150 to around 280. It takes about seven weeks to complete an initial ground school and simulator training course.

After that, each pilot has to do a significant amount of line training with one of our training captains to complete our program. Only after successfully completing a line check is a pilot approved to fly.

The entire process takes about three months.

In addition, Sunwing does recurrent training on each pilot every six months and continues to conduct upgrade training on our first officers who have been promoted to captain.

Since 2011 we have offered 66 of our first officers the opportunity to upgrade to captain. We are currently offering upgrades within approximately two years from a pilot’s date of hire.

Sunwing is growing rapidly which creates a training bottleneck.

We contract foreign pilots on a seasonal basis as a last resort to fill the gap—not to save money, but to allow us to continue to grow. Without these foreign pilots, we would not be able to operate the number of aircraft that we do. Each foreign pilot that is contracted to us in the winter creates 10 additional Canadian jobs.

So, the foreign pilots we contract in the winter actually increase Canadian employment, and give Canadian consumers more choice when flying south in the winter.

That helps keep prices low.

Sunwing has been growing our business and increasing the number of Canadian pilots we employ. Using the TFWP to deal with a training bottleneck is appropriate.

In fact, this is exactly what the TFWP skilled worker guidelines were designed for. We are reducing our reliance on the program as we continue to train and hire Canadian pilots.

In the meantime, using foreign pilots is good for Sunwing’s business, good for Canadian employment and good for consumers.


http://skiesmag.com/digital/2014/csv4i5/files/10.html

(Canada's worst Aviation, next to unreadable website)

[Flying Low]

Really???? I have an small laptop (11.6" screen) and all I did was wait for the page to load and then click on the magazine page to zoom in. No problem reading it at all!

[timel]

On ipad it looks like *%^#

Thx B52!

[B52]

Really???? I have an small laptop (11.6" screen) and all I did was wait for the page to load and then click on the magazine page to zoom in. No problem reading it at all!

I first tried three different browsers, Moxilla, Explorer and eventually found Chrome was the best but next to unreadable.
It's disappointing when such an important message is so difficult to read.
Hopefully in future, Sunwing keep it simple in html and or pdf,
in some format where the message is readable with copy and paste text.

I grabbed all the text as three images. Then converted it to text, and then noticed that one browser
had all the text running together in another window. I copied it all and then broke it down into readable sentences.

In Sum, Mark Williams makes a credible one page explanation of Sunwing's use of TFW pilots.

If I had a 737 type rating I'd apply.

Anyone got any suggestions on getting an initial 737 Type Rating on a US or Canadian ATPL?

[Gino Under]

B52

I suspect you'd still have to do a type rating all over again if you were to join Sunwing after self-sponsoring your type rating. I'd check that if I were you before putting yourself into debt.


Gino Under

[ahramin]

In Sum, Mark Williams makes a credible one page explanation of Sunwing's use of TFW pilots.

Credible?

Contracting European pilots in the winter is more expensive than training and hiring seasonal Canadian pilots.

Air Canada, Westjet, and Air Transat are all somehow able to hire and train Canadian pilots no matter how fast they expand. Williams claims it would be cheaper to do it the way everyone else does but Sunwing takes the more expensive route out of necessity. Not in one year of exceptional growth mind you, but year after year after year. Not because it's cheaper but because it's the only way.

Absolute horseshit. If they were suddenly required to comply with the laws of this country and hire Canadians, would they stop expanding? Or would they suddenly find themselves capable of doing what all the other carriers in Canada have always and still currently do?

[Flying Low]

Hopefully in future, Sunwing keep it simple in html and or pdf,
in some format where the message is readable with copy and paste text.

Are you actually blaming Sunwing for the way a magazine does it's online version?

BTW...I'm using Firefox and have no issues reading the article.

[FL320]

B52,
No need to self-fund your B737 type rating to get a job at Sunwing. i would say 99,9% of the Canadians hired didn't have a type rating. The company pay your type rating and you get paid during the training, and there is no training bond if you have a seasonal contract.
Working at Sunwing is great; the schedule and the salary is better than at some other major airlines here (from my personal experience)

[B52]

Thats nice to know.
Most probably I'd be put on the Sunwing geriatric list
however, once I get some personal road blocks out of the way
I'll send in an application.

To fly past 60's I would prefer to be instructing where there is no age limit
however in my situation, it's easier to get a turbine job than instructing and
if I can, some regular aerobatics...

[ea306]

In the past we have hired some gents in their sixties. A couple of them stayed on as FO upon reaching 65.

Neither had type ratings.

[BE20 Driver]

Bored in a hotel room. Article annotated.

Column in the jumpseat

Editor’s Note:

Toronto-based Sunwing Airlines has long been criticized for employing seasonal foreign pilots [as they should] though Canada’s Temporary Foreign Worker Program (TFWP), when it is alleged that Canadian pilots could fill those jobs.

Here, Sunwing president Mark Williams defends the practice and explains how it enables the airline’s continued growth.


Foreign pilots enable growth [and executive bonuses]
By Mark Williams President,

Sunwing Airlines
8 www.skiesmag.com

Sunwing Airlines, a Sunwing Travel Group company, started operations in November 2005 with two B737-800s based in Toronto and a staff of around 70.

In less than 10 years, Sunwing has grown to operate 32 aircraft from 34 airports in Canada, with a peak staff of 2,000. We are a family-owned business and a Canadian success story.

Sunwing Airlines’ business involves flying customers to one of our 35 destinations in the south.

This business is highly seasonal, with over 80 per cent of our revenues earned in the six-month period between November and April [much like the many other seasonal operators in Canada that typically earn 80% of their revenue in the summer period]. In order to manage this seasonality, Sunwing has always sent a number of our planes and pilots to Europe in the summer, to work for European leisure airlines that have a summer peak season. [that number is 2]

And, we have always brought planes and pilots from Europe to supplement our program in the winter. [that number is a lot more than 2] Managing seasonality this way creates year round employment for Canadian pilots, which is important for our pilots and for Sunwing.


Initially, Sunwing sent more Canadian pilots to Europe in the summer than the number of foreign pilots we brought to Canada in the winter. [that was initially and not any longer]

During the first five years of our existence, Sunwing sent 162 more Canadian pilots to Europe than the number of foreign pilots we brought to Canada in the winter. [over a five year period. ie 32 per year]

After the Eurozone crisis in 2009, that changed. Sunwing’s operations in winter continued to grow rapidly.

At the same time, we were not able to find additional work in Europe in the summer. That caused net pilot movements between Canada and Europe to go the other way. [I'd like to see the statistics of how many more Europeans came here than we sent there over the five years since 2009]

Sunwing’s goal has always been to have the movement of pilots between Canada and Europe be equal.

This allows Sunwing to hire more full-time Canadian pilots, while allowing our European partners the same opportunity. There is a common misconception that Sunwing contracts foreign pilots in the winter to save money.

This is not correct.

Contracting European pilots in the winter is more expensive than training and hiring seasonal Canadian pilots. [on the surface]

Not only do we have to pay foreign pilots at least as much as a Canadian pilot under TFWP regulations, we have to cover their living expenses as well. [but we see this as cheaper than training a bunch of Canadians]

The amount we pay to cover housing, transportation and daily living expenses for a foreign pilot is almost as much as their salary.

So, a foreign pilot costs double what we would pay a Canadian to do the same work. So why do we do it? [we wonder the same thing since I have yet to find a business that when presented with two options, chooses the more expensive one]. Sunwing Airlines has been growing so rapidly that we have not been able to keep up with the training demands of our winter program. [Encore by comparison is hiring and training over 100 pilots this year and about the same next year. Maybe I should check on their TFW applications.]

Since 2011, Sunwing has grown the number of Canadian pilots we employ from 150 to around 280. It takes about seven weeks to complete an initial ground school and simulator training course.

After that, each pilot has to do a significant amount of line training with one of our training captains to complete our program. Only after successfully completing a line check is a pilot approved to fly. [correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what every airline does. No??]

The entire process takes about three months.

In addition, Sunwing does recurrent training on each pilot every six months and continues to conduct upgrade training on our first officers who have been promoted to captain. [so does air canada, westjet, transat, encore, jazz...]

Since 2011 we have offered 66 of our first officers the opportunity to upgrade to captain. We are currently offering upgrades within approximately two years from a pilot’s date of hire. [this is definitely a bright spot]

Sunwing is growing rapidly which creates a training bottleneck. [see above re: encore]

We contract foreign pilots on a seasonal basis as a last resort to fill the gap—not to save money, but to allow us to continue to grow. Without these foreign pilots, we would not be able to operate the number of aircraft that we do. Each foreign pilot that is contracted to us in the winter creates 10 additional Canadian jobs. [high paying ones like aircraft groomers, catering food prep workers etc. I wonder if those people were brought in under the TFW program by other companies.]

So, the foreign pilots we contract in the winter actually increase Canadian employment, and give Canadian consumers more choice when flying south in the winter. [is this inferring that hiring Canadians instead would not also increase Canadian employment?]

That helps keep prices low.

Sunwing has been growing our business and increasing the number of Canadian pilots we employ. Using the TFWP to deal with a training bottleneck is appropriate. [clearly, I'm going to disagree. If others can deal with a larger bottleneck, you should be able to deal with yours]

In fact, this is exactly what the TFWP skilled worker guidelines were designed for. [actually, wasn't it created for low wage earners like nannies?]We are reducing our reliance on the program as we continue to train and hire Canadian pilots. [specifically, how?]

In the meantime, using foreign pilots is good for Sunwing’s business, good for Canadian employment and good for consumers.[and exec bonuses]


http://skiesmag.com/digital/2014/csv4i5/files/10.html

(Canada's worst Aviation, next to unreadable website)

[ea306]

Only two aircraft sent to Europe?
Where are you getting your information from that you are broadcasting as fact? You are a little off base.

It is true....This year there were less aircraft sent to Europe than the previous year due to some internal issues that the pilot group went to task with the company over which resulted in a loss of work for 3 aircraft this summer...long story. But your number which you state as fact (2 aircraft) is completely wrong. So I don't know where you are getting your numbers from. Your numbers are not accurate.

Bottle neck: With the significantly reduced flying in the summer and shoulder seasons, there are just simply not enough line Indoc hours available with all the upgrades and seasonal pilots being hired and trained.

Reference to dependency of foreign pilots: "What is Sunwing doing about it" You ask? Hiring more Canadians. A lot more. And a lot more to come next year also. When this topic first hit this forum we had just over 120 pilots or so. Our list for this winter is 277 Canadian pilots. It is rumoured that (by a pretty reliable source) at least another 60 or more are expected to be hired for the following season. Most likely further Captain upgrades amongst our FOs also.

[FICU]

Mr. Williams fails to mention that the reason they bring in foreign pilots, and will as long as they can, is because TUI demands it as being a half owner. It would not surprise me that as the TFW program tightens the noose on foreign pilots being allowed in that TUI would look to get out and dump it's 49%.

[whipline]

Not even close to being true ficu.

[timel]

Only two aircraft sent to Europe?
Where are you getting your information from that you are broadcasting as fact? You are a little off base.

It is true....This year there were less aircraft sent to Europe than the previous year due to some internal issues that the pilot group went to task with the company over which resulted in a loss of work for 3 aircraft this summer...long story. But your number which you state as fact (2 aircraft) is completely wrong. So I don't know where you are getting your numbers from. Your numbers are not accurate.

Isn't it because European regulators are more and more restricting Canadian pilots flying in Europe without European licences? (Which take about one year to obtain)

[peakbagger]

It would not surprise me that as the TFW program tightens the noose on foreign pilots being allowed in that TUI would look to get out and dump it's 49%.

Makes total sense. Why would a tour group want to own half of one of the fastest growing and most successfull tour operators in Canada!?

[FICU]

Makes total sense. Why would a tour group want to own half of one of the fastest growing and most successfull tour operators in Canada!?

Sunwing's success is due to being in partnership with TUI and importing foreign pilots. Williams himself stated the use of foreign pilots has been pivotal in growing the company.

Once TUI can't dump their pilots in Canada...?

[ea306]

Only two aircraft sent to Europe?
Where are you getting your information from that you are broadcasting as fact? You are a little off base.

It is true....This year there were less aircraft sent to Europe than the previous year due to some internal issues that the pilot group went to task with the company over which resulted in a loss of work for 3 aircraft this summer...long story. But your number which you state as fact (2 aircraft) is completely wrong. So I don't know where you are getting your numbers from. Your numbers are not accurate.

Isn't it because European regulators are more and more restricting Canadian pilots flying in Europe without European licences? (Which take about one year to obtain)

Yes it is true that European Regulators are more restricting with regards to EASA Licences. However we have been granted an exemption this year. Will see what next year brings.

But the reason for loosing three aircraft worth of flying in the EU has nothing to do with the EU. It was due to our pilot group having a disagreement with the company on certain conditions being imposed due to EU Regulatory changes for which exemptions were granted from two separate EU countries.

Not everything is necessarily as it seems.

Btw... Nice to see Canjet Pilots based in Katowice Poland this summer. I'm guessing they are having a blast!

[ahramin]

Each foreign pilot that is contracted to us in the winter creates 10 additional Canadian jobs.

which means that each Canadian pilot contracted creates 11 Canadian jobs. And according to Mr Williams would be cheaper for Sunwing as well.

What a con artist.

[aerosexual]

Makes total sense. Why would a tour group want to own half of one of the fastest growing and most successfull tour operators in Canada!?

Sunwing's success is due to being in partnership with TUI and importing foreign pilots. Williams himself stated the use of foreign pilots has been pivotal in growing the company.

Once TUI can't dump their pilots in Canada...?

TUI doesn't not "dump" their pilots in Canada at Sunwing. In fact, TUI pilots have the option to bid for Canadian deployments, and they are handsomely compensated to do so. Although I have yet to see final numbers, I hear less and less TUI pilots are choosing this option. I suppose that means TUI will get rid of their stake in Sunwing soon if you are to be believed.

Also, for those that claim the use of the TFW program is illegal, that is not the case. The TFW program is not just for nanny's as claimed above, but also for highly paid professionals. Look it up, don't simply rely on your biases.

I too don't want to see the use of the TFW program continue at Sunwing, but not only is it a valid and legal use, it has enabled the seasonal growth of the tour operator whether we like it or not.