Definition of cross-country

[johnny@gino]

Anyone knows where I can find a definition for cross-country flight time? I have done all my night XC PIC time renting a Cessna but I did all of it with the departing airport being my arrival airport, and obviously navigating to airports around my area because it was cheaper for gas and not a lot of airports had service at night. Now, there are saying it's not cross-country and it's circuits. Anybody has any suggestion for me?

[B-rad]

I believe you must land at an aerodrome beyond 25NM from your departure aerodrome.

[johnny@gino]

Do you have a reference? I'd like to see it! My belief was that I only have to actually do navigation. I had flight plans filed for all my flights, that was going beyond 25nm, doing touch-and-go at other airports. I don't see why it couldn't be counted as XC time...

[CpnCrunch]

There is no definition. However I believe that as long as you're actually navigating "somewhere", it should be counted as cross-country. I just wrote in the comments of my logbook "ABC->DEF->ABC" or whatever. Most of my cross-country time involved flying over other airports but not landing at them, and TC seemed fine with it.

There is no "25nm" rule (although it's probably a good idea), and no "must land" rule either. From what you say your flights were definitely XC flights.

Who exactly is saying that it's not XC time? How did you log them?

[Pop n Fresh]

Might as well be me and risk being wrong to post my opinion. Then if I am wrong I can learn from being corrected.


A touch-and-go is landing.

[B-rad]

I'm looking for a reference as we speak, no luck so far.
Although in your first post you didn't mention touching down at another airport and now you mention doing touch and gos at another airport. If you had stopped and exited the runway and then returned for departure it would be pretty clear, a touch and go I still think should be entered in the log books so I personally would consider that appropriate and adequate as landing at another airport for the purposes of cross country.

[CpnCrunch]

A touch-and-go is landing.

True, but it's not even necessary for XC.

I think perhaps someone got it into their head that you need to have a different 'from' and 'to' airport in your logbook for it to be counted as XC.

[johnny@gino]

I logged them from ABC to ABC, writing the night flight time and equivalent night XC time. I haven't put anything in the comments because I thought it would be irrelevant. But it seems like it isn't. I'm trying to retrieve archives of the FP with Navcanada, but it's kind of a complicated process...

It's really the agent at transport that's telling me they can't count it as XC flight time... I have been given the chance to prove it before they officially refuse my demand but still, I have to come up with a solution quickly, or at least, a definition or paragraph written somewhere to give a way to get it approved. I have to say it's really annoying considering I have over 4500+ hr in 705 operations and they stick to that...

[B-rad]

I just wrote in the comments of my logbook "ABC->DEF->ABC" or whatever. Most of my cross-country time involved flying over other airports but not landing at them, and TC seemed fine with it.

A fly over really does not count. TC perhaps seamed fine with it because you logged it even tho you didn't touch down there! I suspect if they had known then you would be facing the same issue.

[iflyforpie]

The 25NM rule relates to the requirement for an ELT and filing a flight plan or itinerary. I've never found any formal definition of a cross country... but I'm pretty sure that TC would not except the standard College-type circuit as XC time...

I only log XC if I'm going out of the area and landing and taking off at another aerodrome. I've got tons of 6 hour flights that take me across half a province and still have me come back to the same airport... I don't log those as XC.

[johnny@gino]

A fly over really does not count. TC perhaps seamed fine with it because you logged it even tho you didn't touch down there! I suspect if they had known then you would be facing the same issue.

Looking at definitions of navigation from the PPL/CPL curriculum items, it doesn't matter if you actually fly to another airport, you have to use a mean of navigation to navigate from A to B. It doesn't involve doing a touch-and-go, that's what I'm trying to prove. Considering that the agent thought a touch-and-go was an entry in the aircraft journey log, I have to come a long way...

[B-rad]

The 25NM rule relates to the requirement for an ELT and filing a flight plan or itinerary....
I've got tons of 6 hour flights that take me across half a province and still have me come back to the same airport... I don't log those as XC.

Exactly, beyond 25NM you must take your journey log and if you touch down at any point beyond this 25NM it is XC. If you don't touch down, no XC.

I would go back to my log book and make the correction showing that you did touch down at those other airports and then resubmit it and if they have a problem with that then I would tell them to prove that you didn't touch down there. If the fact is that you did touch down then there is no problem with correcting your entry to properly show what happened.

[B-rad]

you have to use a mean of navigation to navigate from A to B.

you said it, A to B, not A to A.

[johnny@gino]

The 25NM rule relates to the requirement for an ELT and filing a flight plan or itinerary....
I've got tons of 6 hour flights that take me across half a province and still have me come back to the same airport... I don't log those as XC.

Exactly, beyond 25NM you must take your journey log and if you touch down at any point beyond this 25NM it is XC. If you don't touch down, no XC.

If you don't do a full stop, you don't need the logbook. So, I'm focusing on retrieving the flight plan and the entries at the flight school to show my itinerary... Once I get it, I will definitely add it to the route. Thanks for your ideas!

If anybody has ever seen a definition for cross-country time, or any other ideas, I'd love to hear them!

[johnny@gino]

you have to use a mean of navigation to navigate from A to B.

you said it, A to B, not A to A.

I navigated from A to B to A. Why shouldn't it count?

[B-rad]

you logged it as A-A apparently

[B-rad]

The 25NM rule relates to the requirement for an ELT and filing a flight plan or itinerary....
I've got tons of 6 hour flights that take me across half a province and still have me come back to the same airport... I don't log those as XC.

Exactly, beyond 25NM you must take your journey log and if you touch down at any point beyond this 25NM it is XC. If you don't touch down, no XC.

If you don't do a full stop, you don't need the logbook.

What if you have a bird strike/low oil pressure etc etc and need to land ASAP and you're beyond the 25NM without your journey log? Do you not need your journey log legally? any flight beyond the 25NM shall have your JL. But this is a little off topic, my point being tho is that 25NM seams to be justified and reasonable to be considered XC as does landing for the purpose of creating an entry that proves you did go somewhere other then your departure aerodrome.

[photofly]

Exactly, beyond 25NM you must take your journey log and if you touch down at any point beyond this 25NM it is XC. If you don't touch down, no XC.

Actually you only need your journey log if you plan to shut down at a point other than your point of departure. (CAR605.95(2)(a)). There's no distance requirement. If you plan to fly 1000nm, do a full stop, taxi back and return, without shutting down - no journey log required. But plan to fly to another airport 3nm away, and shut the engine down there - journey log is required. Journey log requirements are not connected with cross-country flight.

What if you have a bird strike/low oil pressure etc etc and need to land ASAP and you're beyond the 25NM without your journey log?

The distance isn't relevant. What's relevant is what you planned. If you planned to have a bird strike or low oil pressure and have to land ASAP then you should have taken the journey log. If these events weren't planned then you don't need to have taken the journey log. Mostly bird strikes and oil pressure issues are not planned in advance.

[B-rad]

haha ok well, whatever you'd like. I won't tell you what to do, just what I do. I'll take my JL on every flight and not worry bout it eh.

[CpnCrunch]

According to TC (from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58408):

"Cross country flight time is any flight that you will conduct, that will require you to navigate along a route to a destination."

[Cat Driver]

Lets say I plan and fly a flight from Nanaimo to the bridge in Ottawa that has been such a topic of conversation in this group.

For it to count as a X/country do I have to fly over it, under it or land on it?

[B-rad]

"Cross country flight time is any flight that you will conduct, that will require you to navigate along a route to a destination."

And how would TC differentiate those who fly XC and do not land from those who do circuits at home and try to log it as XC when issuing a licence? while your quoted definition is clear that you must navigate along a route to destination, I think proving the destination part is paramount.

For the purpose of where XC time is used, it is reasonable to expect a landing be included and logged. For the purpose of defining XC flying, practically any flying involves navigating and could be argued it is meeting an implied definition. Since XC time is only relevant for the purpose of licensing, I am voting that a landing shall be made.

[CpnCrunch]

In my logbook I put either LOCAL or XCNTRY as the destination if I land at the same airport as I took off from. This is how it says in my (UK) logbook that you should log flights, and I was taught (again in the UK) to write the route in the comments section if I logged it as XCNTRY. In the UK it is standard practice to do cross country flights without landing anywhere (except for cases where you are required to land, such as the qualifiying XC).

It seems that TC is a bit more vague about XC time, but the above seems a reasonable way to do things here, and TC Calgary was happy to convert my licenses (so presumably my count of XC time matched theirs, or else they just didn't give a crap).

Actually, I think the only problem is that you're in Quebec. According to that "TC's definition of X-Country?" thread, TC in Quebec has their own homebrew definition of XC time where you have to do a full-stop landing and shut down. Perhaps the solution is to move to Canada

[5x5]

I wish people wouldn't state opinions as though they were fact. There is no need to touch down anywhere other than departure or arrival airport, even if they are the same airport. The long cross-country for PPL and CPL do require stops, but those are specific cases. As long as you conduct all the parts of exercise 23 - departure procedures, enroute procedures and arrival procedures - then it is valid as cross-country.

See CpnCrunch's regs quote above.

For the OP, don't let one TC person derail you. Talk to someone else there if you're hitting a stonewall. TC folks don't necessarily know the CARS absolutely and sometimes you run up against one that misinterprets or makes up requirements because it seems logical to them. Just like some posters on here.

[B-rad]

I wish people wouldn't state opinions as though they were fact.

But isn't everything people say their own opinion anyway? why should people have to state it's their opinion, isn't it obvious? I think facts should be quoted with reference and everything else should be assumed an opinion.
If you have a fact, back it up, otherwise it is only an opinion.