~ Why flying in IMC without instruments is deadly

[NeckStrain]

In the final portions of my PPL doing some full panel instrument training, I was asked to close my eyes and maintain straight and level flight...44 seconds before I was in a deadly spiral dive.

Is the 5 hours enough or should I be considering an instrumental rating? (currently considering a night rating)

[Black_Tusk]

Yes, 5 hours is enough for a PPL. This exercise is use as an example to show you how your inner ear can fool your brain and you must rely on your instruments. Last time I checked I don't fly with my eyes closed.

[NeckStrain]

Yes, 5 hours is enough for a PPL. This exercise is use as an example to show you how your inner ear can fool your brain and you must rely on your instruments. Last time I checked I don't fly with my eyes closed.

\

Me neither, but my eyes weren't much use inside a fluffy cloud, all you can see outside is white, they may as well be closed.

Wouldn't night flying on a moon-less, night in remote areas be just as challenging as flying inside condensed moisture ?

[MrWings]

Wouldn't night flying on a moon-less, night in remote areas be just as challenging as flying inside condensed moisture ?

Yes. That is why you use your instruments. To properly utilize instruments, keeping your eyes open is mandatory.

[yhz41]

You require 10 hours of instrument for a night rating.

[trey kule]

Your takeaway from that demonstration as a day VFR is not to fly into cloud...

Of course, if you wish to fly in IMC, or at night, more IF training is both necessary and required.

In the meantime...stay VFR. And if you have some spare time read some of the safety bulletins regarding continued flight into IMC from VMC...It will reinforce the message.

[photofly]

The background music was to blame; if you'd been listening to Nirvana you would have been fine.

[Black_Tusk]

Yes, 5 hours is enough for a PPL. This exercise is use as an example to show you how your inner ear can fool your brain and you must rely on your instruments. Last time I checked I don't fly with my eyes closed.

\

Me neither, but my eyes weren't much use inside a fluffy cloud, all you can see outside is white, they may as well be closed.

Wouldn't night flying on a moon-less, night in remote areas be just as challenging as flying inside condensed moisture ?

That's why you look at your instruments.

[CpnCrunch]

Night rating and instrument rating are both useful at improving your skills and giving you more options. Or you can go half-way and start with the VFT-OTT rating. And yes, you do need to be prepared to go on instruments flying "VFR" at night, especially after takeoff. (I usually treat a night takeoff the same as an IFR takeoff).

Try to get some actual cloud time if you can...it's quite different from using a hood.

I'd also recommend starting a PTR even if you don't think you want to do the CPL right now (you might change your mind).

[NeckStrain]

I am planning on obtaining a CPL - are you suggesting that I start a new PTR as soon as my PPL PTR gets shipped off to Transport Canada ?

Yeah, I have flirted with small scattered cumulus during cross countries, it is definitely a different experience, it's probably different though because I knew it was only a few hundred feet from clear skies as opposed to being surrounded by white haze in every direction. Eerie.

Night rating and instrument rating are both useful at improving your skills and giving you more options. Or you can go half-way and start with the VFT-OTT rating. And yes, you do need to be prepared to go on instruments flying "VFR" at night, especially after takeoff. (I usually treat a night takeoff the same as an IFR takeoff).

Try to get some actual cloud time if you can...it's quite different from using a hood.

I'd also recommend starting a PTR even if you don't think you want to do the CPL right now (you might change your mind).

[lhalliday]

This is why we do extra instrument time for a night rating. From the time you rotate to being a couple of hudred feet off the ground you have no ground reference and must use your instruments. Ditto over open countryside when it's dark above you and dark below you.

I remember a night cross country when I felt like I couldn't trim the plane properly: a persistent bank to the left. When I mentioned this the first thing the instructor said was "What do your instruments say?"

...laura

[trey kule]

After rereading this thread, the sense I get is that you did not really get the message from the close your eyes lesson.. It is about teaching you that you can not trust your senses other than your eyes
Many of the posters have picked up on that. You fly instruments with your eyes open...kind of a requirement, though a Us navy pilot once was talked down after being blinded in flight.

There are some things you should not explore until you are competent on instruments, like flying through clouds..might just be a bigger cloud than it looks, or there might be another plane flying in it on the assumption no vfr pilot will be there.

Btw. Lots of day vfr pilots seem to like to experience some casual night flying before they get the rating....there is a reason for the addtional instrument and night training.

[Black_Tusk]

I am planning on obtaining a CPL - are you suggesting that I start a new PTR as soon as my PPL PTR gets shipped off to Transport Canada ?

Yeah, I have flirted with small scattered cumulus during cross countries, it is definitely a different experience, it's probably different though because I knew it was only a few hundred feet from clear skies as opposed to being surrounded by white haze in every direction. Eerie.

Night rating and instrument rating are both useful at improving your skills and giving you more options. Or you can go half-way and start with the VFT-OTT rating. And yes, you do need to be prepared to go on instruments flying "VFR" at night, especially after takeoff. (I usually treat a night takeoff the same as an IFR takeoff).

Try to get some actual cloud time if you can...it's quite different from using a hood.

I'd also recommend starting a PTR even if you don't think you want to do the CPL right now (you might change your mind).

Are you admitting to purposely flying in cloud without an IFR rating or even a smidge of experience?

[lownslow]

I have flirted with small scattered cumulus during cross countries, it is definitely a different experience

Suggestion: this ends now.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... e-3669.htm

Soon enough you'll pass a PPL flight test, the examiner will be doing up your temporary license and explaining what to do with the real deal when it comes in. I can almost guarantee they will say something along the lines of, "This is a license to learn." Sometime thereafter you'll do a CPL ride and again, "This is a license to learn." So long as you're staying within the rules from there on out that's exactly true. You're going to do the occasional dumb thing, especially early on, but you almost certainly will have the skill to recover from it and take away a little lesson.

Instrument flying is a whole other ball game. Without visual reference to the ground any lapse in situational awareness can easily be fatal. I don't mean fatal like some heroic movie scene where you're trying desperately to make it all work but just barely miss the mark, I mean instantly and without warning. You and your passengers snuffed out in the wink of an eye. For that reason instrument flight is not to be taken lightly.

[rookiepilot]

On a night rating, I'm pretty much in the camp it shouldn't exist, as it doesn't in many countries.

Night flying in many conditions -- such as hazy nights, near a large lake and over unlight terrain -- is effectively IMC, and combined with fatigue and diminished concentration at night, is often far more dangerous than day IMC, in my view.

Certainly I'd take broken day IMC over solid haze night VFR for a long trip, any day, especially hand flying.

10 hours of experience is insufficient, and accident stats back this up.

[photofly]

On a night rating, I'm pretty much in the camp it shouldn't exist, as it doesn't in many countries.

Which countries don't have night ratings? Certainly the US, because night VFR privileges are included in the basic PPL. However I suspect that's not what you're referring to. Which other countries do you mean?

[trey kule]

I think he might have meant that in many countries VFR at night is not allowed.

[NeckStrain]

Are you admitting to purposely flying in cloud without an IFR rating or even a smidge of experience?

Not into the clouds, flirting with them, you know sometimes there's very light, event horizon let's call it around them, beside them, that area. Here's a photo of what it looked like, there were a few "rogue clouds" away from the main band about 5 miles to the North. You can see the shadows on the ground, this was at 6500 travelling west VFR, I could have descended to 4500, but in my judgement, they were dispersed enough for me to avoid fully being engulfed by them with slight course corrections.



Keep in mind, I had flown in these conditions before, so I had some experience with VFR minimums.

[NeckStrain]

I have flown at night once, never mind the dangers and disorientation, in a single engine, trying to find a wide, well lit road for a forced landing if the engine quits is the real danger. I've always been taught "if the engine fails, where how far can I glide in each direction and where would I land" - couldn't answer it at night...

On a night rating, I'm pretty much in the camp it shouldn't exist, as it doesn't in many countries.

Night flying in many conditions -- such as hazy nights, near a large lake and over unlight terrain -- is effectively IMC, and combined with fatigue and diminished concentration at night, is often far more dangerous than day IMC, in my view.

Certainly I'd take broken day IMC over solid haze night VFR for a long trip, any day, especially hand flying.

10 hours of experience is insufficient, and accident stats back this up.

[CpnCrunch]

It's quite a bit different being right in the middle of the cloud than just flying on the edge. What you're describing is more akin to flying with a hood...you still get some small bits of ground reference. In the middle of a cloud you lose all sensation of your orientation. You definitely should get try to get some instrument training in actual cloud. Now is a good time to do this, before icing becomes a problem.

Ask your flight school about the PTR.

[NeckStrain]

Thank you for the suggestion! Great point to do it while icing levels are 8000 ft on average.

It's quite a bit different being right in the middle of the cloud than just flying on the edge. What you're describing is more akin to flying with a hood...you still get some small bits of ground reference. In the middle of a cloud you lose all sensation of your orientation. You definitely should get try to get some instrument training in actual cloud. Now is a good time to do this, before icing becomes a problem.

Ask your flight school about the PTR.

[ahramin]

but in my judgement, they were dispersed enough for me to avoid fully being engulfed by them with slight course corrections.

Your judgement needs a massive amount of work, and if you keep relying on it as is you are headed for a smoking hole in the ground.

Minimum Visual Meteorological Conditions for VFR Flight in Uncontrolled Airspace

602.115 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within uncontrolled airspace unless

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

(b) where the aircraft is operated at or above 1,000 feet AGL

(i) during the day, flight visibility is not less than one mile,

(ii) during the night, flight visibility is not less than three miles, and

(iii) in either case, the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet vertically and 2,000 feet horizontally;

When your judgement means that you are smarter than everyone else around you and the rules don't apply to you, not only are you a danger to yourself and your passengers, you are a danger to all the other aircraft flying around you. If you want to fly in cloud there's nothing wrong with that. Get the instruction, experience, and ratings necessary and do so within the rules. Until then, keep away from the clouds. Aircraft can feel like fun toys, but these toys have the potential to extract the highest price possible. This is a sport and profession with consequences and many fail to realize this until it's too late. Don't be one of them.

[photofly]

I think he might have meant that in many countries VFR at night is not allowed.

Mostly in countries that restrict day VFR too. Night VFR is permitted in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and EASA-land. That covers 99.9% of GA aircraft and pilots. To pretend that Canada is some kind of outlier for allowing it too is ill-informed to say the least.

Still, if someone wants to hold up Senegal, Burkina Faso and Venezuela as paragons of aviation safety from which the FAA and TC have much to learn, I'm all ears.

[rookiepilot]

I think he might have meant that in many countries VFR at night is not allowed.

Mostly in countries that restrict day VFR too. Night VFR is permitted in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and EASA-land. That covers 99.9% of GA aircraft and pilots. To pretend that Canada is some kind of outlier for allowing it too is ill-informed to say the least.

Still, if someone wants to hold up Senegal, Burkina Faso and Venezuela as paragons of aviation safety from which the FAA and TC have much to learn, I'm all ears.

https://www.flyer.co.uk/caa-changes-nig ... trictions/

Looks like the UK changed their rules in 2012?

I disagree with the current licensing standard for night operations --. At minimum the Sim IFR time should be greater. The US regs are ridiculous in this area.


I'm not that experienced, but Ive flown enough night, and IMC to know a low time PPL with a fresh night rating is simply not qualified to take off, over a dark body of water, into 3 miles hazy visibility, and conduct a long flight with minimal instrumentation or experience -- but that is allowable under the regs.

How many night accidents would we all like to see, PF? You and others who point at "what everyone allows, so it's cool" assume judgement would prevent a new night rated PPL from attempting such a flight.

As the OP demonstrates with his comments in flirting with IMC, , so often new pilots don't have much judgment, yet.

[Schooner69A]

Rookie pilot: regarding your assertion that there should be no such thing as a night rating.

Now, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but before I venture a response, does your "handle" accurately describe your experience level...? (The answer will dictate the thrust of my remarks)

John