They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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Mach1
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

RustyDeuce wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 8:38 pm ... and let pilots be completely unreasonable in their demands.ALPA's demands were so stupidly expensive even they didn't realize how costly they were until their own people came in to see how much it would cost.
What, exactly, was the pilot group asking for? I've tried to find out and no one will say. Since you know, why don't you tell us what the unreasonable demands were so we all know.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cjet »

YOS, trip and duty rigs, DH inside the block and cost of living raises going forward. That's what we've asked for and that's mostly been agree to already. All industry standard stuff that WJ pilots have not had before.

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Canadianjetpilot
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Canadianjetpilot »

YOS - asking for industry standard
Crew Rest and Duty - asking for international standard ( as used voluntarily by other Canadian airlines as opposed to Canada's current archaic regs)
Trip Rigs - asking for industry standard
Payscales - that meet the same established scales by airlines with similar types and areas of Ops. ie. ETOPS, NAT, and soon to be long haul.
Offloading of cost of STD and LTD - in alignment with other operators.

To name a few.

There were no 'silly' requests being made. Items were costed with reasonable accuracy by ALPA with the use of their extensive source material and resources.

WJA just admitted under pressure form the minister( because WJA refused to show it to the MEC) that the 1.5Billion costing they came with was from applying some item costs to ALL 12,000 westjet employees with the argument that whatever they do for the pilots they have to do for everybody else. This is representative of the mentality the MEC has been dealing with.

From witnesses in the room the Minister's reaction was one of "restrained bewilderment".
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Canadianjetpilot »

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cloak
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cloak »

KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm ... Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
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Rezy
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Rezy »

cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm
KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm ... Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension. WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
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Rezy
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Rezy »

Canadianjetpilot wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:09 pm
WJA just admitted under pressure form the minister( because WJA refused to show it to the MEC) that the 1.5Billion costing they came with was from applying some item costs to ALL 12,000 westjet employees with the argument that whatever they do for the pilots they have to do for everybody else. This is representative of the mentality the MEC has been dealing with.

From witnesses in the room the Minister's reaction was one of "restrained bewilderment".
This is why an arbitrator is necessary for these negotiations to continue. No longer will WJ be able to invent figures without backing them up. The arbitrator will demand to know how they calculate their numbers, and the company will have to provide them to the arbitrator. Not necessarily the ALPA MEC, but if the company wants to provide data in arbitration, it will be the arbitrators responsibility to determine the accuracy and they are entitled to view all the data and figures (privately). This is why arbitration will result in a big win for WJ Pilots.
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Mach1
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension.
That can be remedied by placing your ESP into a tax sheltered account like an RRSP. So, that is not true.
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
That is true... the short term and long term disability payments are a large deduction on the cheques.
cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
There is no single and simple answer to that question. We have an ESP program that involves matching. The company will match up to 20% of your pay in shares if you contribute 20% of your pay to buying shares that is then locked up in your ESP account for 12 months until you can sell them (just like every other ESP program in every other company in every other industry). Just to make it easy, I'm going to refer to the ESP as a savings account from here on.
You are taking 40% of your pay and putting it into a savings account for 1 year:
Now you are living on 60% of your pay:
But, you are taxed on 100% of your pay and you are also taxed on the companies 20% contribution to your savings account. Let's say you are paying 40% in taxes, that 40% in taxes comes off of the remaining 60% of the paycheque you receive:
Now you are taking home around 20% of your gross wage:
Out of that 20% come the other deductions like EI, CPP, and benefits:
THIS is why the take home pay at WestJet is low and why people complain about it:
The HR department did a great job of explaining this to people once upon a time but it seems that they have failed to do that or people have failed to understand what they were signing onto.

Okay, 12 months later you can save or sell any, all or proportion your savings (ESP) in any manner you choose. If you need more income or you want to pay off a mortgage or any number of things you can do that, you can save for retirement, you can buy other properties or investments to have your money make more money.... but you have to be willing to accept that you are taking a lower cheque today to get a higher one tomorrow:
Once you start selling your ESP, you may have to pay capital gains tax on any increase in share prices that have happened between buying the shares and selling them:
More taxes, but only if you make a profit:
You can also write off any losses if you happen to sell at a loss... and offset those losses against your future gains.

At the end of the day, all of your income from pay and investments winds up on line 150 of your tax form and you made a lot of money on paper while you are actually living on 20-25% of your wages for your first year worked at the company... everything after that is personal choices.

One place that really does hurt us is that line 150 of the tax return is what is used to calculate things like child support and spousal support in a divorce.

It can look bad but, if you save the money, reinvest and take the time and energy to manage your investments you can and will come out of the job a multi-millionaire as so many have already done. A young guy in the captains seat can be saving $70k a year... in 10 years that's $700K without growth or loss and with a modest 5% growth that comes in just a shade under $1Mil in 10 years.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Where can I order 10 billion Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses that have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.

Seriously people...
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cloak »

Thank you for the explanation.
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rudder
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by rudder »

Mach1 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension.
That can be remedied by placing your ESP into a tax sheltered account like an RRSP. So, that is not true.
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
That is true... the short term and long term disability payments are a large deduction on the cheques.
cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
There is no single and simple answer to that question. We have an ESP program that involves matching. The company will match up to 20% of your pay in shares if you contribute 20% of your pay to buying shares that is then locked up in your ESP account for 12 months until you can sell them (just like every other ESP program in every other company in every other industry). Just to make it easy, I'm going to refer to the ESP as a savings account from here on.
You are taking 40% of your pay and putting it into a savings account for 1 year:
Now you are living on 60% of your pay:
But, you are taxed on 100% of your pay and you are also taxed on the companies 20% contribution to your savings account. Let's say you are paying 40% in taxes, that 40% in taxes comes off of the remaining 60% of the paycheque you receive:
Now you are taking home around 20% of your gross wage:
Out of that 20% come the other deductions like EI, CPP, and benefits:
THIS is why the take home pay at WestJet is low and why people complain about it:
The HR department did a great job of explaining this to people once upon a time but it seems that they have failed to do that or people have failed to understand what they were signing onto.

Okay, 12 months later you can save or sell any, all or proportion your savings (ESP) in any manner you choose. If you need more income or you want to pay off a mortgage or any number of things you can do that, you can save for retirement, you can buy other properties or investments to have your money make more money.... but you have to be willing to accept that you are taking a lower cheque today to get a higher one tomorrow:
Once you start selling your ESP, you may have to pay capital gains tax on any increase in share prices that have happened between buying the shares and selling them:
More taxes, but only if you make a profit:
You can also write off any losses if you happen to sell at a loss... and offset those losses against your future gains.

At the end of the day, all of your income from pay and investments winds up on line 150 of your tax form and you made a lot of money on paper while you are actually living on 20-25% of your wages for your first year worked at the company... everything after that is personal choices.

One place that really does hurt us is that line 150 of the tax return is what is used to calculate things like child support and spousal support in a divorce.

It can look bad but, if you save the money, reinvest and take the time and energy to manage your investments you can and will come out of the job a multi-millionaire as so many have already done. A young guy in the captains seat can be saving $70k a year... in 10 years that's $700K without growth or loss and with a modest 5% growth that comes in just a shade under $1Mil in 10 years.
Meanwhile, there are other pilot groups with T4 $200k (simply wages including overtime), company pension contribution (DB or DC), and tax free expenses which can all add up to closer to $250k+.

What matters is net. The formula you use to get there doesn’t matter as much as what you have at the end. Net pay. Net retirement. Net expenses. Bills are paid in $$ not concepts.

I presume that the WJ pilots will propose the system that works best for themselves yet leaves them at or near the net amount of their peers.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

The person asked for an explanation of the pay system, I provided one.
rudder wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 pm What matters (<- To you) is net. The formula you use to get there doesn’t matter as much as what you have at the end. Net pay. Net retirement. Net expenses. Bills are paid in $$ not concepts.
I agree, that is really important, to you. Therefore you should be working at a place that offers that to you and not accept a job at a place that does not. I mean, that's just crazy to go to work at a place that doesn't offer what you are looking for and then expect everyone else to bend to your will. And if no one applies because of that pay model, then the model gets changed to attract the people.
rudder wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 pm I presume that the WJ pilots will propose the system that works best for themselves yet leaves them at or near the net amount of their peers.
Since it's all in the hands of the arbitrator now, who knows how this will all unfold.

If you are working at WJ and you hate it this much and are this angry, go where you will be happy. It's a choice. It's a choice you made and only you can make. I'm tired of listening to the angry people who made the choice to come to WJ. Yes, the working conditions need improvement but it really doesn't deserve this much anger and bitching. Life is too short to spend 30 years at a place you hate instead of one you envy.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by lostaviator »

True, we all decide where we work. But lots of people signed up back in the good old days which I personally consider to have ended as recent as a few years ago.

Having 40% of your T4 tied to a single companies stock is/could be great if your executive knows how to run an airline, execute products, and treat their employees properly.

T4s are great and all BUT we are currently losing money. We pay tax on a huge amount of extra unseen income and the result is an even greater loss when the stock goes down because we have paid income tax on all that $hit. The investment community is terrified about the path our company is treading down. For every 9 questions about their plans, theres 1 about our negotiations.

This isn’t the place we signed up to work so now the game plan changes. Hopefully we get back on track
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by IKEA_Monkey »

lostaviator wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:58 pm This isn’t the place we signed up to work so now the game plan changes. Hopefully we get back on track
As a banged up Marsellus Wallace would say "Nah man. I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay."

ALPA has wrestled a lit match from the hands of an individual standing in room soaked with gasoline dead set on burning the whole house down. Disaster was narrowly averted but serious arguments remain that clearly won't be resolved amicably. Throughout all this the company continues to spew their hatred towards the greedy pilots by whatever means possible. If the "WestJet culture" was dead before, what remains is extremely malodorous.

Despite making every effort to disenfranchise 1,500 WestJet pilots, the company is doing all it can to honor the 30 or so recently hired Swoop pilots. Why?! Because their existence is just another snub to the larger pilot group. They may very well go to the bottom of the seniority list but that is of little consolation to the WestJet FO's hoping for an upgrade or any of the 500+ Encore pilots striving to just step foot on the property. For an airline that prides itself on taking care of "owners" they are doing everything possible to make everyone's lives miserable. So much for having a cohesive employee group. What a fucked up place this has become.

Now Encore pilots are gearing up for their own negotiations. Any guess on how that's going to go?! While all the attention has been on westjet pilots proper, if they don't resolve the situation at Encore our whole operation and growth strategy will be at risk. One more significant hiring wave and whatever experience is left will be gone. An endless stream of 250 hour wonders will not plug the resulting gap. I don't know how risky it is to operate a Q400 with a combined 2500 hours in the cockpit, but WestJet it appears is determined to try it out.

I just don't know anymore. I used to feel very optimistic about this company despite some of the headwinds we currently face or the challenges surrounding our representation. But I no longer have any faith in our executive leadership. Playing employee groups off each other? Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work? Jeopardize our retirement savings? Literally chasing pilots away while running blindly into a pilot shortage? Who the hell is in charge of this crazy plane? When will someone take control?
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by aerobod »

IKEA_Monkey wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 pm Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work?
The threat was a lockout until the dispute was settled, which would be a lot more beneficial to the company as a whole as it would be difficult to continue operations, the operational shutdown would be more structured than with having to respond to a strike, employees not directly involved with the dispute would be able to claim EI and cash could be conserved in a more controlled manner to minimize damage to the company finances. The effect on guests would also be a bit more controlled with a 72 hour operational wind down to the lockout.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

IKEA_Monkey wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 pmALPA has wrestled a lit match from the hands of an individual standing in room soaked with gasoline dead set on burning the whole house down.
Ha, ha, ha. ha.... I have to give you that one. What a great line. I do agree. There is a management problem at team teal.
IKEA_Monkey wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 pm But I no longer have any faith in our executive leadership. Playing employee groups off each other? Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work? Jeopardize our retirement savings? Literally chasing pilots away while running blindly into a pilot shortage? Who the hell is in charge of this crazy plane? When will someone take control?
I'm with you on that one. As a share holder, I am not to impressed with the BOD and their duty to look after my interests. Not just Clive, but the whole board needs to go! Vote your shares!
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by lostaviator »

The closing the door scenario still strikes me as quite odd. Still wondering if it was just a scare tactic. Cranky grandpa still has tens of millions tied up in wj stock. Would be quite the personal financial gamble.

But, we all know the final outcome of this whole process was going to be arbitration. The company would stomp their feet if we asked for a 0.0001% increase so getting us close to industry standard in as many areas as possible was always going to take an outside force.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by FenceSitter »

IKEA_Monkey wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 pm
lostaviator wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:58 pm This isn’t the place we signed up to work so now the game plan changes. Hopefully we get back on track
As a banged up Marsellus Wallace would say "Nah man. I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay."

ALPA has wrestled a lit match from the hands of an individual standing in room soaked with gasoline dead set on burning the whole house down. Disaster was narrowly averted but serious arguments remain that clearly won't be resolved amicably. Throughout all this the company continues to spew their hatred towards the greedy pilots by whatever means possible. If the "WestJet culture" was dead before, what remains is extremely malodorous.

Despite making every effort to disenfranchise 1,500 WestJet pilots, the company is doing all it can to honor the 30 or so recently hired Swoop pilots. Why?! Because their existence is just another snub to the larger pilot group. They may very well go to the bottom of the seniority list but that is of little consolation to the WestJet FO's hoping for an upgrade or any of the 500+ Encore pilots striving to just step foot on the property. For an airline that prides itself on taking care of "owners" they are doing everything possible to make everyone's lives miserable. So much for having a cohesive employee group. What a fucked up place this has become.

Now Encore pilots are gearing up for their own negotiations. Any guess on how that's going to go?! While all the attention has been on westjet pilots proper, if they don't resolve the situation at Encore our whole operation and growth strategy will be at risk. One more significant hiring wave and whatever experience is left will be gone. An endless stream of 250 hour wonders will not plug the resulting gap. I don't know how risky it is to operate a Q400 with a combined 2500 hours in the cockpit, but WestJet it appears is determined to try it out.

I just don't know anymore. I used to feel very optimistic about this company despite some of the headwinds we currently face or the challenges surrounding our representation. But I no longer have any faith in our executive leadership. Playing employee groups off each other? Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work? Jeopardize our retirement savings? Literally chasing pilots away while running blindly into a pilot shortage? Who the hell is in charge of this crazy plane? When will someone take control?
Westjet has been playing the various employee groups off against each other for years. It's intentional. CB is where it starts and ends. Him and his hand-picked board don't care. Full stop. Millions would have been wiped out if he had his way. It took the government stepping in to do the board's job to prevent it.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Realitychex »

Say what you will about CB, but having known him since well before WJ was a glint in anyone’s eye, I’ll 100% guarantee he wasn’t blowing smoke.

For better or for worse, he completely dominates the board. What he wants, he gets.

Very few of the current pilot group were there, but the precedent was set in Sept 1996. He shut the airline down. I was in the room I the original WJ WQ on McTavish when it happened. It may have been moot, but that action was taken in advance of anything else that might have occurred.

The threat of the strike and lost bookings guarantees WJ will lose money in 2Q and likely result In negligible profit sharing in Nov. When was the last time you saw an F&F offer for June? How many were you able to use? I couldn’t give mine away. That’s where demand is right now. The threat probably bought Flair a few more months of existence. Fuel is moving up and all US carriers have issued defacto profit warnings. Not a good time....

That being said, there are at least three very senior former execs who were in the same room in Kelowna a few weeks ago who are not disappointed that all the flying will be done by WJ pilots.

The key is to allow flexibility in order to get the job done and ensure the soft underbelly is fully protected and locked down. The larger upside is elsewhere as evidenced by anyone who’s crewed a TATL section recently.

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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by '97 Tercel »

Not a good time....
Yeah, airlines are doing terrible these days...if we all just flew for nothing then they could really pull through these lean times
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by jjj »

Realitychex wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:03 am Say what you will about CB, but having known him since well before WJ was a glint in anyone’s eye, I’ll 100% guarantee he wasn’t blowing smoke.

For better or for worse, he completely dominates the board. What he wants, he gets.
That is precisely what is wrong with this place. A multi-billion dollar company in the hands of a puppet master that will scorch the earth in a hissy-fit rather than evolve.

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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Realitychex »

'97 Tercel wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:05 pm
Not a good time....
Yeah, airlines are doing terrible these days...if we all just flew for nothing then they could really pull through these lean times
Who ever said you'd be flying for nothing?

You tell me: What sort of T4 - total comp - would you realistically expect to see Captains and FO's earn to fly Canadian domiciled 737's 75-80 hrs a month, with as an efficient schedule as is realistically possible, again, based in Canada, where virtually all revenue is in C$ and between 48% and 54% of expenses are fundamentally denominated in US$ and where Government, (Libs, Cons and Dippies), have made it a fine art of doing everything they can to financially hobble airlines, (ALL airlines), with excessive direct and indirect taxation.

Trying to compare the US industry to the Canadian industry from a cost / financial perspective is like trying to compare chalk and cheese.

Perhaps throw out a number for first year, 5 year and 10 year folks?.

I've done enough start ups to know the fully allocated economics of the business, given the ones I've been involved with currently operate a total of 384 aircraft in Canada, the US and Mexico, and with more to come..... :wink:

If the economics didn't work at start up, they sure as heck wouldn't have gotten to where they are today.

I suspect things are not as far apart as some people would like to think, and who have a vested interest in propogating a story, really are.

Ultimately, that's good news for long term strategic thinking, level headed people, regardless of what hat they wear when they go to work.

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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cloak »

Most people seem to have an emotional response. And it's an easy sell for unions too: "why should you make less for flying the same B737 on WestJet as opposed to Swoop?" It's a logical argument that seemingly makes sense. And the answer is in simple economics. And the idea of understanding not to price oneself out of the market.

The kind of flying that Swoop is targeting is to compete with buses and trains, people that normally don't fly and of course the likes of Flair, Jetlines and others. This customer base is not going to fly on WestJet or at the very least fly as much. So therefore, if not WestJet, the business goes to the competitors, which gradually make inroads and erode the business base.

In a business, there are fixed costs, and there are controllable costs. The former being airport fees, nav fees, taxes, fuel, etc, and the latter being largely payroll. It doesn't make a difference what type of aircraft or airline, fuel and other uncontrollable things cost the same. So the difference has to come from controllable costs, and wages are a great chunk of that, and then pilot wages are the greatest part of that. Sure fuel is the greatest cost and taxes are ridiculous, but those are not controllable. The area that airlines CAN make a difference in costs is the controllable ones. Now sure we all want to make as much as we can, at the same time, the difference comes down to whether or not that work is going to exist at all. It's that simple. Earlier some got really surprized that how can an executive have a "fit" to want to shut down a rich profitable airline? The answer is simple. It's not a fit; it's business. If the business model is not sustainable, instead of burning cash until it all comes to a halt, it's better to have a controlled stop and cash out while ahead.

Ever seen elite athletes run a marathon? Where most of us be celebrating and sending links to all our friends for simply finishing one, elite athletes don't hesitate a second to stop after 5 or 10 K if they are not making the kind of time that they are after. There is less emotion for them. They are probably running another race a week or two later. This is the example here. If the profit margins are not what they want, they will stop it, wait for a while and start over again, or do something else altogether. The founders of WestJet were not airline type, yet they revolutionized the business model. They can probably do it again in another airline, or something else, if they want to.

It may be good venting attacking others anonymously and calling them names, but for all you know the idea of Swoop is what has kept the "Mongols" back! Chances are pilots of Canadian Airlines said the same about WestJet pilots in late 90s. "How can any decent pilot accept 60 grand for a B737 captain position?!" "These guys are bringing the industry down", etc. Yet here we are, decades later and most of those guys have done quite well for themselves. This was part of the revolution. WestJet entered into business with them as partners and introduced a new model of remuneration. And its pilots may have to enter into partnership with it all over again! WestJet can be at the cusp of unprecedented growth into international markets, big partnerships, multi-level service while also guarding the back door, and creating plenty of opportunities. In final analysis, union or not, pay and benefits are determined by the market.
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Rezy
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Rezy »

cloak wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm

The kind of flying that Swoop is targeting is to compete with buses and trains, people that normally don't fly and of course the likes of Flair, Jetlines and others. This customer base is not going to fly on WestJet or at the very least fly as much. So therefore, if not WestJet, the business goes to the competitors, which gradually make inroads and erode the business base
I’ll stop you there, because this is not true. This is what management has said they are going to do, but the facts suggest otherwise, and even the investors are pissed - listen to the last call from May 8.
Swoop is starting with 6 routes. Out of those 6 routs, 50% completely cannabilize WestJet flying. As in, you can NO longer purchase a ticket from WJ to fly YEG-YXX, YEG- YHM, YHM-YHZ.
That’s definitely not attracting new business or going after new air travellers or competing with people that take buses. That’s cannibalizing your own flying on routes where people fly point to point. They are forcing Swoop to be successful because you won’t even be able to purchase a ticket on WestJet anymore. This is going to be a big airline - and if they can’t even find 6 routes to be successful, without cannibalizing WestJet flying, then it’s clearly not a good business model, as you described. It’s a replacement airline for domestic WJ flying.
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Realitychex
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Realitychex »

Wow.

I don't know where to start, but suffice it is to say that your understanding of the bigger picture is severely limited.

The goal of WJ is to get bigger and bigger as time goes on and to ensure everyone involved is happy, motivated and rowing in the same direction.

Any thoughts that there is some giant conspiracy to screw pilots is simply paranoid nonsense.

That being said, the best way to ensure the growth, and flying that you likely aspire to, and that is profitable and sustainable, is to ensure the back door is slammed shut and not allow a "WestJet 2.0" to do to WestJet what WestJet did to Canadian, Air Canada, Royal, C3, etc etc, who all went banco within 8 years of WJ's launch.

Swoop is doing exactly what Swoop is designed to do. Isolate the canibalization of core traffic to the YXX-YEG-YWG-YHM corridor, (and on key transborder leisure routes in the winter), and then tactically, and ruthlessly go after new entrants where ever they pop up.

Dealing with them in a highly aggressive manner is the best way to protect the larger strategy, which is long term growth and lots of new iron in the years to come, starting with the 20 787's.

You can be sure that every other airline in Canada is highly threatened by this strategy and will do what they can to ensure it doesn't occur. Let's put it this way. Do you think WJ management would allow WJ pilots to picket AC headquarters at their AGM in full WJ uniform? I doubt it. Gee. I wonder why AC management allowed this to occur?.......

Either you're on the team, or you're not on the team.

If you're not, maybe it's time to move on.

8)
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