One List
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Re: One List
Oh noo bros. WestJet was supposed to be fine. It was Air Canada that was supposed to run out of money. I thought Reality Chex's posts were legally binding. They were so long and contained so many numbers.
Re: One List
If a company cannot exist without doing whatever it wants whenever it wants regardless of its CBA’s and organized labour groups then it shouldn’t exist.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
Re: One List
Who made the decision to have multiple aircraft types? I remember you extolling the virtues of a single type. That virtue being training costs, flexibility and agility.Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.
Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.
The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.
The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.
Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.
Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.
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When WJ moved away from a single fleet type model they chose higher cost training and less flexibility/agility if a black swan event should occur. We call them black swan but really? In this industry? They are inevitable unseen events.
WJ management chose this, not the employees. Now when the negative consequences of multiple fleet types are born out, you would like to disproportionately off load the consequences on to employees for the greater good?
Survival is a shared responsibility. The key word is shared. If the solution management wants won’t be equitable to employees it will never fly.
Everyone just sit down. Listen to each other. Take the others concerns seriously and take action on them. If either side becomes intransigent you both lose.
Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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h angry that's a very naive and idealistic sentiment, one that is not founded in realities of the world. I recall a CUPE rep saying the same thing during Canada 3000 bankruptcy. He also said: "my mortgage is paid off, if the company cannot follow the CBA I could care less if it goes bankrupt"! Which of course it did. That guy now works for CUPE while other regular FAs had to find other work.
The notion of "unions" that value a "brotherhood of all pilots" don't work in the reality of the current market, where loyalty can only apply to one's place of employment because it pays the bills and once it is no more, that brotherhood can get them an interview at best. If there was a national union which supplied pilots (like other professionals) to all companies, that would be different. However the fact is that one airline disappearing is great for competitors who can hire some of the qualified disbanded staff, after an interview, at the bottom of their list and at year one salary!
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.
WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they can examine the sense of the pilot group regarding nullifying the one list or revoking super seniorities.
The notion of "unions" that value a "brotherhood of all pilots" don't work in the reality of the current market, where loyalty can only apply to one's place of employment because it pays the bills and once it is no more, that brotherhood can get them an interview at best. If there was a national union which supplied pilots (like other professionals) to all companies, that would be different. However the fact is that one airline disappearing is great for competitors who can hire some of the qualified disbanded staff, after an interview, at the bottom of their list and at year one salary!
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.
WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they can examine the sense of the pilot group regarding nullifying the one list or revoking super seniorities.
Last edited by cloak on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: One List
While I'm no fan of unions and never liked this PTA. The company liked this agreement when it was used as a recruiting/hiring tool to get people to go to Encore. You're saying they want all the benefits of the agreement without any of the risks of the agreement. That seems reasonable.Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.
Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.
The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.
The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.
Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.
Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.
![]()
Re: One List
You should never have allowed a separate bargaining unit at Encore. The history of regional pilots and the conflicts between them and their parent company pilots is plentiful. Why are you surprised? Your suggested actions will only make a future situation worse. You will green light the Encore MEC into competing for your work once the dust settles. Maybe sooner. Trust me, it will happen. Then the race to the bottom starts.cloak wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:12 am
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.
WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they should also look at ways of nullifying the one list and revoking super seniorities.
Don’t go there. You do not want another group competing for your work.
How about fix the problem right now? One list, one bargaining unit. Pilots on the WJ seniority list are on loan to Encore. Just like Rouge. It’s not the ideal setup, but far superior to having a separate bargaining unit at Encore which will be used against you in perpetuity.
Just think about how creative an angry Encore MEC could get. Hey WJ management we now have a bunch of 737 type rated pilots. You have a bunch of idle 737’s. How about we help you with that for 25% off? Swoop is already doing that you say? How about 40% off?
Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Interesting proposition, however unless there is a national organization completely different from current unions, one that is more involved with the profession and resembles college of doctors, nurses or lawyers, these challenges will continue. And personally I can't see how that would work with multiple airlines and competing interests...
Last edited by cloak on Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: One List
Rouge is set up this way. Rouge doesn’t actually have pilots. They are on contract from AC. Essentially AC is a crewing company for Rouge.cloak wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:57 am Interesting proposition, however unless there is a national organization completely different from current unions, one that is more involved with the profession and resembles college of doctors, nurse or lawyers, these challenges will continue. And personally I can't see how that would work with multiple airlines and competing interests...
I’m not suggesting it is a go to solution because it’s not. But it is far far superior to a separate bargaining unit.
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And how about the myriad of regionals Air Canada possess?!
Uniting pilots nationally under one umbrella is a herculean task that is not possible with competing airlines.
Uniting pilots nationally under one umbrella is a herculean task that is not possible with competing airlines.
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Re: One List
There is no way, absolutely no way, unless WJ management wants it, to bring Encore pilots into the WJ bargaining unit.Fanblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:45 amYou should never have allowed a separate bargaining unit at Encore. The history of regional pilots and the conflicts between them and their parent company pilots is plentiful. Why are you surprised? Your suggested actions will only make a future situation worse. You will green light the Encore MEC into competing for your work once the dust settles. Maybe sooner. Trust me, it will happen. Then the race to the bottom starts.cloak wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:12 am
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.
WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they should also look at ways of nullifying the one list and revoking super seniorities.
Don’t go there. You do not want another group competing for your work.
How about fix the problem right now? One list, one bargaining unit. Pilots on the WJ seniority list are on loan to Encore. Just like Rouge. It’s not the ideal setup, but far superior to having a separate bargaining unit at Encore which will be used against you in perpetuity.
Just think about how creative an angry Encore MEC could get. Hey WJ management we now have a bunch of 737 type rated pilots. You have a bunch of idle 737’s. How about we help you with that for 25% off? Swoop is already doing that you say? How about 40% off?
Re: One List
Cloak and ALPA policy.
Yes AC regionals are separate. It is a lesson learned. A painful lesson.
AC and AC regional pilots had an opportunity 25 years ago to consolidate into one list and it was squandered. The ensuing competition for each other’s jobs has scars in our contract to this day.
Think like a CEO. All crisis come with opportunities. Think beyond this crisis. If WJ management wants something from you?
The real question is what kind of priority do you put on it. Do you see the ever present danger in having a regional as a separate bargaining unit, combined with inadequate scope protections?
Do you choose to respond to this danger by tightening scope? That will create retaliation and take you down a path well travelled. Do you do nothing and just ignore the threat?
Or do you just fix the problem?
Yes AC regionals are separate. It is a lesson learned. A painful lesson.
AC and AC regional pilots had an opportunity 25 years ago to consolidate into one list and it was squandered. The ensuing competition for each other’s jobs has scars in our contract to this day.
Think like a CEO. All crisis come with opportunities. Think beyond this crisis. If WJ management wants something from you?
The real question is what kind of priority do you put on it. Do you see the ever present danger in having a regional as a separate bargaining unit, combined with inadequate scope protections?
Do you choose to respond to this danger by tightening scope? That will create retaliation and take you down a path well travelled. Do you do nothing and just ignore the threat?
Or do you just fix the problem?
Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One List
Disregard my previous post. Even if WJ management wanted it, the CIRB would likely not agree to it. The labor model where regional airlines in Canada are in a separate bargaining units is a model the CIRB will not easily alter. For many years, the current model has achieved the aims of labor peace.
The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
Re: One List
Plus it puts WestJet group at substantial financial disadvantage to say Air Canada group. It is idealistic to think WestJet is going to rewrite labour structure and in the process increase its costs so much that puts its longevity in question. It can't do something substantially more expensive than Air Canada.
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+1. And may very well happen.The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
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"Companies get the union they deserve." - Clive Beddoe.
I wonder why WJ has unions today? ________↑
That is a pretty disappointing post Realitychex. Here's how that reads:
Executives never make mistakes. Ever.
All problems are because of the lazy employees.
If anything goes wrong, it's the employee's fault.
If anything goes right, it's because of the executives genius.
You lot are lucky you are allowed to work for us. It's not like you make any money for the company through the work you do because you are just a cost item on a ledger sheet. We executives make all the money with our brilliance.
Once upon a time, an employee was considered an asset and treated as such. Now they are the enemy of your bonus. Meanwhile, companies are run by what appears to by psychopaths who have no empathy for anyone and no sense of right and wrong.
The whole point of making it expensive to retrain people in a lay off is to cause a company to really, really think about it before they lay off ~80% of their pilots. How many did AC lay off? WJ has become AC of the 1990's... where the executives hated the employees (as shown by your post), the employees start hating the executive... and since they can't take it out on the executive, they take it out on the customer. The customer hates the company and the company goes bankrupt. Why WJ refuses to learn that lesson of history (because it sure looks like AC did) is beyond me but there's the top of the top marching down this well worn pathway determined to repeat the mistakes of others... Oh right, executives never make mistakes. It's all the unions fault.
I can't help but wonder if WJ would be unionised today had the executive not decided to start treating the employees as the enemy.
I wonder why WJ has unions today? ________↑
That is a pretty disappointing post Realitychex. Here's how that reads:
Executives never make mistakes. Ever.
All problems are because of the lazy employees.
If anything goes wrong, it's the employee's fault.
If anything goes right, it's because of the executives genius.
You lot are lucky you are allowed to work for us. It's not like you make any money for the company through the work you do because you are just a cost item on a ledger sheet. We executives make all the money with our brilliance.
Once upon a time, an employee was considered an asset and treated as such. Now they are the enemy of your bonus. Meanwhile, companies are run by what appears to by psychopaths who have no empathy for anyone and no sense of right and wrong.
The whole point of making it expensive to retrain people in a lay off is to cause a company to really, really think about it before they lay off ~80% of their pilots. How many did AC lay off? WJ has become AC of the 1990's... where the executives hated the employees (as shown by your post), the employees start hating the executive... and since they can't take it out on the executive, they take it out on the customer. The customer hates the company and the company goes bankrupt. Why WJ refuses to learn that lesson of history (because it sure looks like AC did) is beyond me but there's the top of the top marching down this well worn pathway determined to repeat the mistakes of others... Oh right, executives never make mistakes. It's all the unions fault.
I can't help but wonder if WJ would be unionised today had the executive not decided to start treating the employees as the enemy.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
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With all due respect, that will not change the challenge presented by current conditions.
The challenge right now is not unique to WestJet or even airline industry. It's global. This is why all industries have reduced hours, as there is little demand! Until restrictions are lifted and people start flying again, some understanding, patience and cooperation is needed.
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Re: One List
The boogie man scare tactic. You are so predictable. I remember your "we need SWOOP NOW!!!" post due to the phantom ghost that was going to suck up the entire market.Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.
Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.
The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.
The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.
Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.
Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.
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Give it a break man.
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Re: One List
Make no mistake about it. WJ will need Swoop in a big way on the other side of this.flashheart wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:08 pmThe boogie man scare tactic. You are so predictable. I remember your "we need SWOOP NOW!!!" post due to the phantom ghost that was going to suck up the entire market.Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.
Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.
The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.
The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.
Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.
Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.
![]()
Give it a break man.
Leisure will come back faster than business, but stimulated by low fares, which requires low unit costs.
There are going to be a ton of 737-800’s available, (AA alone have almost 80 sisterships available). Aircraft leasing for $225k a month in Feb are now $150k.
There will be all kinds of experienced pilots and AME’s available.
There might never be a better window of opportunity for a Cdn startup or even the expansion of Flair into all the various voids down the road.
Swoop better be in the game and ready, willing and able to deal with such a scenario.
Be thankful that many of the sort of people who could pull this off with ease in Canada are already tied into a US based startup that’s sitting in the weeds, fully capitalized and with an active OC with a B737.
Re: One List
And People will fly those 737NGs for $100/hour...
or less.
Again.
That is the sad reality.
or less.
Again.
That is the sad reality.
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Re: One List
Oh yes Im sure the public is DYING to be crammed into a Swoop high density 737 after an epidemic
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+1flashheart wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:47 pm Oh yes Im sure the public is DYING to be crammed into a Swoop high density 737 after an epidemic
Would almost rather dish out the cash for a business class ticket or just not go anywhere at all. No thank you on that middle seat.
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Re: One List
Think beyond the current crisis.
I’m sure people figured commercial sea travel was done on April 16th 1912 and there was no future in commercial air travel on May 7th 1937.
There was no shortage of experts predicting the permanent decimation of demand for air travel on Sept 12 2001 either.
Lo and behold, the snow starts to fly in November and people that would “never get on an airplane again” are spending $ like drunken sailors on tickets to Cancun, Punta Cana, Montego Bay and snowbirds are flying off to their winter homes in Florida, Arizona.
The best strategy to ensure you have a job to go back to is do everything you can to make sure your employer is the tallest midget cowboy in the room with a full bandolier of bullets.
There’ll be no future for 98lb weakling airlines when this is over and done with.
I’m sure people figured commercial sea travel was done on April 16th 1912 and there was no future in commercial air travel on May 7th 1937.
There was no shortage of experts predicting the permanent decimation of demand for air travel on Sept 12 2001 either.
Lo and behold, the snow starts to fly in November and people that would “never get on an airplane again” are spending $ like drunken sailors on tickets to Cancun, Punta Cana, Montego Bay and snowbirds are flying off to their winter homes in Florida, Arizona.
The best strategy to ensure you have a job to go back to is do everything you can to make sure your employer is the tallest midget cowboy in the room with a full bandolier of bullets.
There’ll be no future for 98lb weakling airlines when this is over and done with.
Last edited by Realitychex on Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One List
Rich people are losing a lot of money during this pandemic. They need to pass the bill on to the lower classes.
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Wrong: rich (and some higher class) educated people are now enjoying many opportunities to make more money. The money always move from one hand to another; it does not disappear.Daniel Cooper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:24 am Rich people are losing a lot of money during this pandemic. They need to pass the bill on to the lower classes.