COVID MOA 2

[Sharklasers]

if the above is true regarding acquisition, can't help but think ACPA stoked the fire on that one.

500 million dollar decisions are not made because ACPA filed a grievance that they will either lose or more likely settle for a sack of magic beans.

[spinaxis]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

You had better believe the leaders of ALPA at Jazz absolutely do believe they are entitled to DOH or better in a merged list.
Thats why they spent the last decade they were in control of ALPA-C establishing a precedent of DOH in acquisition situations. Think about it, why would they gift DOH to GGN, Bearskin and wasaya pilots to the great harm of their current members? There were some at the top were playing the long game to further their own careers.
If we join ALPA the arbitrator will absolutely look at the precedent they have spent years establishing.

1.) ALPA in canada establishes industry DOH seniority. Encore pilots taking DOH to mainline. GGN taking DOH to competitors when they go out of business ect.
2.) AC pilots choose ALPA representation after this seniority systems has been well established.
3.) AC buys chorus.
4.) Jazz pilots show arbitrator well defined history of seniority integrations and show that ACPA merged in well after said precedent established.

ALPA will have a total of ZERO influence in a merger or integration. And people like you and Blake Murphy, Mike McKay, Rob Weiser and company really love to stoke that fear. They are just worried they'll lose their cushy union release and ability to do whatever they want without a single drop of accountability.

[Sharklasers]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

You had better believe the leaders of ALPA at Jazz absolutely do believe they are entitled to DOH or better in a merged list.
Thats why they spent the last decade they were in control of ALPA-C establishing a precedent of DOH in acquisition situations. Think about it, why would they gift DOH to GGN, Bearskin and wasaya pilots to the great harm of their current members? There were some at the top were playing the long game to further their own careers.
If we join ALPA the arbitrator will absolutely look at the precedent they have spent years establishing.

1.) ALPA in canada establishes industry DOH seniority. Encore pilots taking DOH to mainline. GGN taking DOH to competitors when they go out of business ect.
2.) AC pilots choose ALPA representation after this seniority systems has been well established.
3.) AC buys chorus.
4.) Jazz pilots show arbitrator well defined history of seniority integrations and show that ACPA merged in well after said precedent established.

ALPA will have a total of ZERO influence in a merger or integration.

Its called precedent and it is the rock upon which our entire legal system is built. It may not be the only factor but the precedent will absolutely be considered.

[mbav8r]

if the above is true regarding acquisition, can't help but think ACPA stoked the fire on that one.

500 million dollar decisions are not made because ACPA filed a grievance that they will either lose or more likely settle for a sack of magic beans.

Unfortunately, the keyboard doesn’t convey the true intent, I’m being sardonic, couldn’t care less as long as I keep my pay and position. I was NOT part of the lawsuit, you are, I’m sure correct that there are still some who will salivate at this.
Me, I’m genuinely concerned about my DB pension, I’m way too old to start over on a new scheme, so I’ll trade you, I’ll vote for a stapled list if you ensure anyone currently in a DB plan stays in it, deal?
Also, I’m sure you’re right, a decision to buy would be on the savings and ability to right size the regional fleet without huge penalty, the scope issue no doubt sweetened the pot.

[Admiral Benson]

I think a much more likely scenario is that the mystery party interested in purchasing a portion of Chorus in in fact the federal government. Talks have been ongoing this week about potential airline aid and the government has made it clear that the regional network will be their priority. I also seriously doubt that AC management would make such a large decision while there are still so many outstanding issues regarding the Transat deal.

[hithere]

Anyone here know anything about corporate law? The release said a “third party” is making the bid. Since AC already owns 10% of Chorus is it still considered third party?

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

[spinaxis]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

Well if they stopped flying they'd be breaking their end of the CPA... I wonder how that would go over. I agree it's probably the feds. Good luck getting it to pass at the board or shareholder level unless they are prepared to pay $8-10/share. Lots of bag holders right now and Chorus is a strong company which will likely come out of this without a problem.

[Kosiw]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

Well if they stopped flying they'd be breaking their end of the CPA... I wonder how that would go over. I agree it's probably the feds. Good luck getting it to pass at the board or shareholder level unless they are prepared to pay $8-10/share. Lots of bag holders right now and Chorus is a strong company which will likely come out of this without a problem.

Trolls.... always the one hit wonders.

[spinaxis]

Trolls.... always the one hit wonders.

Trolls really was a great movie my daughter loved it!

[mbav8r]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

Well if they stopped flying they'd be breaking their end of the CPA... I wonder how that would go over. I agree it's probably the feds. Good luck getting it to pass at the board or shareholder level unless they are prepared to pay $8-10/share. Lots of bag holders right now and Chorus is a strong company which will likely come out of this without a problem.

I would approve that but to be clear people are thinking the feds are looking to buy the entire company, leasing, voyageur, Jazz and the MRO business.
Honestly the only thing that makes any sense is AC, easy to sell the share holders on the savings generated from this purchase.
The CPA has a MADUG for the guaranteed fleet and that bill comes due at the end of the year, the scope issue dies and I’m sure a few other benefits.
For the pilots, some will benefit, as I mentioned elsewhere I cannot stomach the thought of losing my DB pension, this will cause me to lose sleep, that and I don’t want to become an......well I’ll just leave that thought

[spinaxis]

Well you didn't lose your DB when Jazz was spun off, and ours is significantly overfunded. Join them and call it a day. Whether that happens or not is the question but as someone not on the DB at AC I have nothing against you keeping yours.

Now the conversation about "winfall gains" would very much come into play and I don't see any scenario where an arbitrator awards any kind of integration where a Jazz pilot will be able to hold any NB or WB Captain seat. Or really any integration other than BOTL or close to it. The bottom 1500 AC pilots are filled with largely ex Jazz pilots who had many years of service and that will not be ignored.

You're right though if the Feds wanted only a regional it would make more sense to put an offer in for Porter.

[mbav8r]

Well you didn't lose your DB when Jazz was spun off, and ours is significantly overfunded. Join them and call it a day. Whether that happens or not is the question but as someone not on the DB at AC I have nothing against you keeping yours.

Now the conversation about "winfall gains" would very much come into play and I don't see any scenario where an arbitrator awards any kind of integration where a Jazz pilot will be able to hold any NB or WB Captain seat. Or really any integration other than BOTL or close to it. The bottom 1500 AC pilots are filled with largely ex Jazz pilots who had many years of service and that will not be ignored.

You're right though if the Feds wanted only a regional it would make more sense to put an offer in for Porter.

To begin with, Jazz was a separate company that was wholly owned by AC, so the pilot contract was intact as the asset was sold.
You guys have a clause that has any company owned by AC, the pilots have to be on your list, my concern is that I would be treated as a new hire, that does not sit well with me but it’s out of my hands.
I don’t care about all the other stuff, that can be sorted out by an arbitrator, to be sure there will be some fighting just not by me. I guess we will find out eventually who this buyer is or not if no deal comes.

[Tdicommuter]

Rather than speculate I will postulate and maybe some can percolate before responding.

Isn't Chorus aviation a large company that holds many more moving parts than simply Jazz? From what I read it looks like there is overseas contract flying, domestic contract medical stuff and maintenance operations.

Has anyone researched EIC? They have faired quite well during this pandemic and actually purchased more airplanes. If you look at their history to date it looks like their Dr. evil style plan is to hold all the regional flying in Canada. They even bought a flight school to try to ensure they can supply new hires to their regional flying companies. They already operate heavy maintenace, contract flying, medivacs and look to generate income through already established cash generators, they then squeeze for efficiencies and consolidate amongst their other groups.

If EIC buys chorus they can potentially acquire surplus planes that they can easily repurpose into their already diverse flying across Canada. The CPA may be a bonus to turn the remainder of their regional flying into a code share or expand the CPA across their entire network.

I do not know this to be factual, nor is anything being said to date on this thread. Please put the Air Canada/ Jazz ego aside and try to evaluate this unbiased and remember the sun does not rise or set only for AC and or JAZZ. be willing to admit you don't know the answers because we actually don't. If any of us were smart enough to navigate complex multi million/billion dollar mergers we wouldn't be posting free opinions on a pilot forum.

I'm open to rebuttals as this is only me using my past experience within EIC and I'm trying to be unbiased ( yes I'm an AC pilot).

Cheers gals and guys

[alkaseltzer]

Rather than speculate I will postulate and maybe some can percolate before responding.

Isn't Chorus aviation a large company that holds many more moving parts than simply Jazz? From what I read it looks like there is overseas contract flying, domestic contract medical stuff and maintenance operations.

Has anyone researched EIC? They have faired quite well during this pandemic and actually purchased more airplanes. If you look at their history to date it looks like their Dr. evil style plan is to hold all the regional flying in Canada. They even bought a flight school to try to ensure they can supply new hires to their regional flying companies. They already operate heavy maintenace, contract flying, medivacs and look to generate income through already established cash generators, they then squeeze for efficiencies and consolidate amongst their other groups.

If EIC buys chorus they can potentially acquire surplus planes that they can easily repurpose into their already diverse flying across Canada. The CPA may be a bonus to turn the remainder of their regional flying into a code share or expand the CPA across their entire network.

I do not know this to be factual, nor is anything being said to date on this thread. Please put the Air Canada/ Jazz ego aside and try to evaluate this unbiased and remember the sun does not rise or set only for AC and or JAZZ. be willing to admit you don't know the answers because we actually don't. If any of us were smart enough to navigate complex multi million/billion dollar mergers we wouldn't be posting free opinions on a pilot forum.

I'm open to rebuttals as this is only me using my past experience within EIC and I'm trying to be unbiased ( yes I'm an AC pilot).

Cheers gals and guys

I think it's a great move for EIC. Strong fundamentals. Strong dividend. Solid management.

As to what this implies for "flow through" for Jazz pilots, this remains to be seen. If this acquisition goes through, I think Skyregional will be around for a long time to keep them in check.

Comparable to our US counterparts, I think it's a great strategy for EIC. As for AC, the question is will the regional costs increase as planned or spike beyond that, and at which point does it "hurt" so much that AC will use Sky OR bring that back into AC.

Great for Chorus, a lot more diversification that I can see. However, I am a little skeptical what the implications are in the long run from a continued partnership. Good thing we have the A220. And nothing says that Skyregional can't start operating Q400s.

My two cents.

[truedude]

Rather than speculate I will postulate and maybe some can percolate before responding.

Isn't Chorus aviation a large company that holds many more moving parts than simply Jazz? From what I read it looks like there is overseas contract flying, domestic contract medical stuff and maintenance operations.

Has anyone researched EIC? They have faired quite well during this pandemic and actually purchased more airplanes. If you look at their history to date it looks like their Dr. evil style plan is to hold all the regional flying in Canada. They even bought a flight school to try to ensure they can supply new hires to their regional flying companies. They already operate heavy maintenace, contract flying, medivacs and look to generate income through already established cash generators, they then squeeze for efficiencies and consolidate amongst their other groups.

If EIC buys chorus they can potentially acquire surplus planes that they can easily repurpose into their already diverse flying across Canada. The CPA may be a bonus to turn the remainder of their regional flying into a code share or expand the CPA across their entire network.

I do not know this to be factual, nor is anything being said to date on this thread. Please put the Air Canada/ Jazz ego aside and try to evaluate this unbiased and remember the sun does not rise or set only for AC and or JAZZ. be willing to admit you don't know the answers because we actually don't. If any of us were smart enough to navigate complex multi million/billion dollar mergers we wouldn't be posting free opinions on a pilot forum.

I'm open to rebuttals as this is only me using my past experience within EIC and I'm trying to be unbiased ( yes I'm an AC pilot).

Cheers gals and guys

I think it's a great move for EIC. Strong fundamentals. Strong dividend. Solid management.

As to what this implies for "flow through" for Jazz pilots, this remains to be seen. If this acquisition goes through, I think Skyregional will be around for a long time to keep them in check.

Comparable to our US counterparts, I think it's a great strategy for EIC. As for AC, the question is will the regional costs increase as planned or spike beyond that, and at which point does it "hurt" so much that AC will use Sky OR bring that back into AC.

Great for Chorus, a lot more diversification that I can see. However, I am a little skeptical what the implications are in the long run from a continued partnership. Good thing we have the A220. And nothing says that Skyregional can't start operating Q400s.

My two cents.

As someone else pointed out, EIC does not have the available funds to finance an offer of this size.


As of June 2020 EIC had $66M of cash and cash equivalent. However, Free cash flow was $-38M

Second hurdle, even if they scrapped together the cash, they would have to convince the shareholders it was a viable offer. Unlike Transat, Chorus is is no immediate risk, and continues to be profitable, with a solid business model. It would be difficult to see it being sold for less than $6 a share, which would bring the valuation closer to a billion. Even then, you would have to convince the shareholders (and Air Canada) that any sale would be better off than simply waiting for a return to $8.

I doubt it is them.

Personally, I think it would be far more likely to see Jazz carved out of Chorus, with Chorus remaining with the remaining portion of their business, including holding the leases on a sizable portion of the Jazz fleet.

[GoinVertical]

Additionally, wouldn't EIC's existing companies infringe on the non-competing clause in the Jazz CPA?

Not sure about Calm Air and Perimeter, but I know at least PAL is competing with some AC/Jazz routes, while also having a Montreal base...

Separating Jazz from Chorus makes much more sense - Jazz going to AC and then Chorus going to a company like EIC (except one that can afford them...).

[alkaseltzer]

Rather than speculate I will postulate and maybe some can percolate before responding.

Isn't Chorus aviation a large company that holds many more moving parts than simply Jazz? From what I read it looks like there is overseas contract flying, domestic contract medical stuff and maintenance operations.

Has anyone researched EIC? They have faired quite well during this pandemic and actually purchased more airplanes. If you look at their history to date it looks like their Dr. evil style plan is to hold all the regional flying in Canada. They even bought a flight school to try to ensure they can supply new hires to their regional flying companies. They already operate heavy maintenace, contract flying, medivacs and look to generate income through already established cash generators, they then squeeze for efficiencies and consolidate amongst their other groups.

If EIC buys chorus they can potentially acquire surplus planes that they can easily repurpose into their already diverse flying across Canada. The CPA may be a bonus to turn the remainder of their regional flying into a code share or expand the CPA across their entire network.

I do not know this to be factual, nor is anything being said to date on this thread. Please put the Air Canada/ Jazz ego aside and try to evaluate this unbiased and remember the sun does not rise or set only for AC and or JAZZ. be willing to admit you don't know the answers because we actually don't. If any of us were smart enough to navigate complex multi million/billion dollar mergers we wouldn't be posting free opinions on a pilot forum.

I'm open to rebuttals as this is only me using my past experience within EIC and I'm trying to be unbiased ( yes I'm an AC pilot).

Cheers gals and guys

I think it's a great move for EIC. Strong fundamentals. Strong dividend. Solid management.

As to what this implies for "flow through" for Jazz pilots, this remains to be seen. If this acquisition goes through, I think Skyregional will be around for a long time to keep them in check.

Comparable to our US counterparts, I think it's a great strategy for EIC. As for AC, the question is will the regional costs increase as planned or spike beyond that, and at which point does it "hurt" so much that AC will use Sky OR bring that back into AC.

Great for Chorus, a lot more diversification that I can see. However, I am a little skeptical what the implications are in the long run from a continued partnership. Good thing we have the A220. And nothing says that Skyregional can't start operating Q400s.

My two cents.

As someone else pointed out, EIC does not have the available funds to finance an offer of this size.


As of June 2020 EIC had $66M of cash and cash equivalent. However, Free cash flow was $-38M

Second hurdle, even if they scrapped together the cash, they would have to convince the shareholders it was a viable offer. Unlike Transat, Chorus is is no immediate risk, and continues to be profitable, with a solid business model. It would be difficult to see it being sold for less than $6 a share, which would bring the valuation closer to a billion. Even then, you would have to convince the shareholders (and Air Canada) that any sale would be better off than simply waiting for a return to $8.

I doubt it is them.

Personally, I think it would be far more likely to see Jazz carved out of Chorus, with Chorus remaining with the remaining portion of their business, including holding the leases on a sizable portion of the Jazz fleet.

I completely agree with your position; I was skeptical it would be them due to what you just mentioned, but with the rumour of "non-binding", this sounds like a leveraged buyout.