Spin Recovery Altitude

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by photofly »

Flying at night is a different proposition, which is why in Canada there is a night rating.

As far as day VFR for a Private Pilot Licence goes, I honestly don't understand why so much - one ninth, more than 11% - of the required hours have to be spent practicing flight in or simulating conditions under which the licence you're training for doesn't permit you to fly. Maybe someone could explain to me.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Squaretail
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 515
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Squaretail »

Well in the old days there would be someone who would jump on that question and remind us that the old days didn’t have that requirement, and pilots were perfectly fine. There is a certain point to that, and I agree with your sentiment above on it that it is indeed some false security.

Now that said, I have had a few students who in spite of all my warnings about weather and clouds and wandering into them, came back and thanked me for being serious about those five hours. One claimed it was the difference between life and death when his judgement was lacking. Now while in decades of training people I can only count those on one hand with fingers left over, so did I get through to most of them about the clouds, and the few that didn’t get through to at least equipped to survive their misjudgement? Hard to say. In the end I think the small extra cost in time and money is worth it, your own view on it may vary of course.
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:07 pm Squaretail, I respect your viewpoint, and I've clarified my post. Maybe more Sim time, is the answer.
Personally it’s the only cause for sim work in the PPL, though I dislike the idea of more of it. Staying out of clouds is in the realm of effective PDM, which poor teaching of is the main culprit, but to be fair, some people will just have to go scare themselves, and then maybe not even then. To quote Tolkien: “the burned hand teaches best, only then does advice about fire go to the heart.” The sim can perhaps best be used in a simple exercise, that’s purpose isn’t to develop skill, but serve as a warning. Just make the student fly in a straight line for half an hour, turn on a bit of turbulence to keep them busy, then make then try to manipulate on of the navaids then a course change. Many, if they have only an hour or two of instrument practice will be overwhelmed by this simple bit and lucky to see the sim maintaining +/- 500’ and or +/-25 degrees of heading. If they didn’t get into a spiral dive during the heading change. The point to hammer home is a) stay the f@#k out of clouds, or b) do the practice and work to get an instrument rating. The game is played for keeps.
Respectfully, those specific trips I'm thinking of, were well beyond the capabilities of the weather for a small single engine piston, at night, beyond the aircraft's and the instructor's capabilities too.
One small point is that it may have been within the instructor’s pilot abilities, but not within their instruction abilities. A student is a huge workload burden, more so the greener the student. Advanced conditions require advanced students at the very least. I know enough dead instructors now, who maybe should have switched to full on pilot mode and ended the lesson. I don’t think students learn a bunch in passenger mode, even if the best intentions are had. Our disagreement has been productive if you can see now maybe those things come to be in the thought process. Your revised items in your post make more sense. If possible PPLs should be exposed to marginal VFR, to see how unfun the edge of their envelope is. Most new pilots have trouble spotting airports in clear skies even with the aid of the gps, now do it with 3sm vis.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Squaretail wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:51 am If possible PPLs should be exposed to marginal VFR, to see how unfun the edge of their envelope is. Most new pilots have trouble spotting airports in clear skies even with the aid of the gps, now do it with 3sm vis.
One of the challenges is that many Instructors have no experience flying in any kind of marginal weather. So a FTU airplane going out to get experience on a crap day is going to have in effect 2 students in it which is not good. The other challenge is that there has to be the right bad but not too bad conditions which is of course the luck of the draw.

My last 5 Instructor rating students were all brand new CPL's and had never flown in any weather that was even close to bad. For 4 of them I was able to get a flight in to a airport 11 nm from out home base on a stable day of 700 and 2 conditions. Half way to the destination airport I was able to get 3 of the 4 disorientated by making them do a few turns and asking a few distracting questions. One got completely lost and would have required a radar vector to get home.

All of them ended the flight with very a very subdued demeaner and a personal story to tell students about why they should not fly on those legal but bad wx days.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tsgarp
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:18 pm

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by tsgarp »

This debate recurrently surfaces on this site every year or so. I don't understand why people get their shorts in such a knot over spin training. It's just not that dangerous and it's an excellent method to expose students to disorienting conditions in a safe and controlled fashion. We want to do this because as exposure to abnormal attitudes and accelerations increases the level or disorientation decreases. When viewed from through the lens of Cognitive Load Theory, https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article ... theory.htm, spin training increases the students ability to process sensory information. This has two benefits: 1) If the student ever finds themselves in a no duff unusual attitude they will have increased mental capacity with which to deal with the situation. 2) The extra sensory processing capacity developed by spin training can be applied to learning other manouvers, thus increasing the rate of learning. Wingovers and 60 degree banked turns also help with this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by tsgarp on Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
rookiepilot
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5069
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by rookiepilot »

tsgarp wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:09 am This debate recurrently surfaces on this site every year or so. I don't understand why people get their shorts in such a knot over spin training. It's just not that dangerous and it's an excellent method to expose students to disorienting conditions in a safe and controlled fashion. We want to do this because as exposure to abnormal attitudes and accelerations increases the level or disorientation decreases. When viewed from through the lens of Cognitive Load Theory, https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article ... theory.htm, spin training increases the students ability to process sensory information. This has two benefits: 1) If the student ever finds themselves in a no duff unusual attitude they will have increased mental capacity with which to deal with the situation. 2) The extra sensory processing capacity developed by spin training can be applied to learning other manouvers, thus increasing the rate of learning. Wingovers and 60 degree banked turns also help with this.
The best training I was given, after I had my ratings, was the instructor repeatedly moving the plane into different and opposite usual attitudes, then I needed to recover, then repeat with no pause, all while I was under the hood, until I was fighting significant disorientation (and nausea, too). Excellent LOC simulation.

It took everything to focus and recover after about the third or forth one. I did have my IFR rating, to be fair.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Thumper45
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Thumper45 »

Must recover by 2000AGL.
So to be entering a spin for training you should be at least 3000AGL to allow for 1000ft loss of altitude in a 1 turn recovery. In my experience recovery is often before 1000ft of altitude loss but if you are training you need room for error.

According to the POH it should be allowed 1000ft of altitude loss for each turn.

Keep in mind this is on a 172M to be exact. It would depend on the aircraft as some take longer times to recover.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

All of the C 172 POH's specify that spins should be entered at a high enough altitude that recovery will be at, at least 4000 ft AGL
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviatard
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:45 am
Location: In a box behind Walmart

Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Aviatard »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:19 am All of the C 172 POH's specify that spins should be entered at a high enough altitude that recovery will be at, at least 4000 ft AGL
Cessna 172N POH, Section 4 Normal Procedures:

It is recommended that, where feasible, entries be accomplished at high enough altitude that recoveries are completed 4000 feet or more above ground level. At least 1000 feet of altitude loss should be allowed for a 1 turn spin and recovery, while a 6-turn spin and recovery may require somewhat more than twice that amount. For example, the recommended entry altitude for a 6-turn spin would be 6000 feet above ground level. In any case, entries should be planned so that recoveries are completed well above the minimum 1500 feet above ground level required by FAR 91.71.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”