Sunwing/Westjet
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Sunwing is a charter outfit.
Sunwing owes $375 Million at 11 points just in LEEF funding alone.
Those are facts. Those are arguments that will be made to the arbitrator, whether they get traction remains to be seen.
https://www.travelweek.ca/news/it-wasnt ... wing-deal/
Sunwing owes $375 Million at 11 points just in LEEF funding alone.
Those are facts. Those are arguments that will be made to the arbitrator, whether they get traction remains to be seen.
https://www.travelweek.ca/news/it-wasnt ... wing-deal/
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
No mention that the Sunwing Travel Group is a $3B revenue company. There is no rescuing. No parachute parent. No angel investor. This is purely a business transaction to expand, not rescue. Quite frankly it all adds up and makes sense.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
I have no skin in the game but wasn’t Sunwing hiring 250 hour cadets right onto the 37 before anyone even thought that would be a possibility? I realize that’s not every FO at Sunwing by any means but it’s ironic to call out an encore Q FO right out of school which as far as I know they made a hiring posting about it but haven’t hired yet.JetA Burner wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:55 pmDOH is not unreasonable. I can't fathom to think that our number one guy should jump anyone north of their hire date. That makes no sense. It's a hard pill to swallow but...if you wanted to accept risk in 96', then you should have done so as those WJA guys and gals did. The No 1 and 2's of the world at SWG....well, you're not the buyer, now are you? That being said, a pilot at SWG typically has a much more of a substantial career vested than an encore pilot with a reserved seniority number. I'm not sure if it's reserved or an actual number....but with the list floating around, there are a lot of WJE numbers on said list! Is it reasonable for a kid hired straight out of school on a Q will be senior to a 737 skipper from the C3/Zoom/Royal/CanJet/Everyotherdefunct airline days?Sharklasers wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:15 pm I don’t understand how you think DOH is unfair or unreasonable. Why is your time at Sunwing so much more valuable than the WS pilots time there?
This is a mainline buying a financial unstable charter outfit. I think a strong argument can be made to the arbitrator that improvements to the Sunwing pilots career expectations and stability far outweigh any potential lose of relative seniority they may suffer.
You need to calm down, relax and wait for the process to play out. Life must be exhausting walking around with that giant chip on your shoulder.
In terms of career stability as a "charter outfit" and stating "financially weak" ... those statements/argument are weak at best. At SWG, our career expectation and stability has never looked better. Business has been, and is projected to be booming. This is in the best interest of WJA (WestJet Travel Group?) and Sunwing combined now. There is no desire or need to slander a company that the WestJet Group has/will purchase(d). It is in your best interest to want this to succeed. It is and will be a successful company, and it is now in your best interest to hope so.
The flying that we do is desirable. This is why we do what we do. This is why we as Sunwing pilots stay here. This is why we Sunwing pilots want to operate independently because we fear that WJA will want to dig deep into our lifestyle/credit.
I'm sure this is all fine and dandy if you want a good piece of the sweet high credit pie....but at what cost?
I think DOH and YOS at bare minimum, and a few years of fences here and there. No Orange shag carpet on the 787, and no teal on the caridean routes for a few years, then fair game on open slots. If you pay YOS, it doesn't matter too much on the seniority scale except for the top 25%. Provided WJA expands with the projected expansion of SWG, we should see further upgrades than anticipated.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
You are absolutely correct. I believe the history behind giving them a number vs pinning to the bottom was to prevent full fledged cadet hiring. I believe the company wanted to hire cadets and give them a reduced wage. The Union fought to have them paid and hired as FOs to mitigate a cadet puppy mill.fish4life wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:15 am I have no skin in the game but wasn’t Sunwing hiring 250 hour cadets right onto the 37 before anyone even thought that would be a possibility? I realize that’s not every FO at Sunwing by any means but it’s ironic to call out an encore Q FO right out of school which as far as I know they made a hiring posting about it but haven’t hired yet.
I have many of them above me, and I have no good response or ideas for that one. You are absolutely correct, and the same can be said about cadets at Sunwing.
I have nothing against Encore or the cadets. They all got a sweet deal and I wish them well. There is not going to be a pretty way to merge no matter how you slice it.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
I hope whatever happens WJ and Sunwing pilots put some differences aside and work together because the only guarantee is you will both get screwed by the companies trying to extract the most if you fight each other.JetA Burner wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:14 amYou are absolutely correct. I believe the history behind giving them a number vs pinning to the bottom was to prevent full fledged cadet hiring. I believe the company wanted to hire cadets and give them a reduced wage. The Union fought to have them paid and hired as FOs to mitigate a cadet puppy mill.fish4life wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:15 am I have no skin in the game but wasn’t Sunwing hiring 250 hour cadets right onto the 37 before anyone even thought that would be a possibility? I realize that’s not every FO at Sunwing by any means but it’s ironic to call out an encore Q FO right out of school which as far as I know they made a hiring posting about it but haven’t hired yet.
I have many of them above me, and I have no good response or ideas for that one. You are absolutely correct, and the same can be said about cadets at Sunwing.
I have nothing against Encore or the cadets. They all got a sweet deal and I wish them well. There is not going to be a pretty way to merge no matter how you slice it.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Sharklasers, I think you completely mis interpreted my post. I do not "have a giant chip on my shoulder". Far from it. Re-read what I wrote. No chip, just some disappointment that the Euro deployments are over. An FAQ thing said that for the time being WG will be a separate division from WS and the pink menace. Time will tell if it stays that way. As far as DOH only, I came from 5T ( 5 years there) which is in the final stages of merging with 7F. They have a great new contract from the sounds of it with a pay INCREASE for all. Yes you read that correctly. The only bone of contention is the merging of the seniority lists and it is going to arbitration. If we (WG) do go to one list with WS, I predict that that merging of lists will also be the biggest problem.For some genius to have put out a massive list with all 4 entities based only on DOH is not the best way to start things off.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:15 pm I don’t understand how you think DOH is unfair or unreasonable. Why is your time at Sunwing so much more valuable than the WS pilots time there?
This is a mainline buying a financial unstable charter outfit. I think a strong argument can be made to the arbitrator that improvements to the Sunwing pilots career expectations and stability far outweigh any potential loss of relative seniority they may suffer.
You need to calm down, relax and wait for the process to play out. Life must be exhausting walking around with that giant chip on your shoulder.
If you don’t like how it looks in the end your always welcome to come to AC, but I promise all your RCAF and WG time won’t get you further up that list than the person beside you in groundschool.
Is DOH the only way? Nope. Here is one example from the past. It's basically a cut and paste from a conversation with one of our guys chatting with a retired Alaska guy that he knows. I went looking for a more solid reference but couldn't find anything.
"A 1932 company and a 2007 company
First 400 Alaska
401 Virgin A
Ratio of 3.5 to 1 on average overall.
Alaska wanted DOH
Virgin A group said that they never had the opportunity to start in 1932…
ALPA ruled in favour of ratio as being most fair.
Virgin America pilots did very well as a result."
For now it's status quo for both the orange and the teal, but like I said initially, if it turns out to suck, sayonara (with no chips required). Of course as the near mythical pilot shortage that was just starting to be felt at some of the second tier carriers comes back as things get rolling, maybe we all get to advance quickly. TBD.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
I can't seem to find a link to the Alaska/Virgin seniority award. Anyone know if it is publicly available?mijbil wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:13 pmSharklasers, I think you completely mis interpreted my post. I do not "have a giant chip on my shoulder". Far from it. Re-read what I wrote. No chip, just some disappointment that the Euro deployments are over. An FAQ thing said that for the time being WG will be a separate division from WS and the pink menace. Time will tell if it stays that way. As far as DOH only, I came from 5T ( 5 years there) which is in the final stages of merging with 7F. They have a great new contract from the sounds of it with a pay INCREASE for all. Yes you read that correctly. The only bone of contention is the merging of the seniority lists and it is going to arbitration. If we (WG) do go to one list with WS, I predict that that merging of lists will also be the biggest problem.For some genius to have put out a massive list with all 4 entities based only on DOH is not the best way to start things off.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:15 pm I don’t understand how you think DOH is unfair or unreasonable. Why is your time at Sunwing so much more valuable than the WS pilots time there?
This is a mainline buying a financial unstable charter outfit. I think a strong argument can be made to the arbitrator that improvements to the Sunwing pilots career expectations and stability far outweigh any potential loss of relative seniority they may suffer.
You need to calm down, relax and wait for the process to play out. Life must be exhausting walking around with that giant chip on your shoulder.
If you don’t like how it looks in the end your always welcome to come to AC, but I promise all your RCAF and WG time won’t get you further up that list than the person beside you in groundschool.
Is DOH the only way? Nope. Here is one example from the past. It's basically a cut and paste from a conversation with one of our guys chatting with a retired Alaska guy that he knows. I went looking for a more solid reference but couldn't find anything.
"A 1932 company and a 2007 company
First 400 Alaska
401 Virgin A
Ratio of 3.5 to 1 on average overall.
Alaska wanted DOH
Virgin A group said that they never had the opportunity to start in 1932…
ALPA ruled in favour of ratio as being most fair.
Virgin America pilots did very well as a result."
For now it's status quo for both the orange and the teal, but like I said initially, if it turns out to suck, sayonara (with no chips required). Of course as the near mythical pilot shortage that was just starting to be felt at some of the second tier carriers comes back as things get rolling, maybe we all get to advance quickly. TBD.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Not ‘ALPA’. It was an arbitration panel (3 independent professional arbitrators) formed under the terms of the ALPA Merger Policy.
Arbitration is only necessary if parties cannot agree on all matters of seniority list integration, and terms of reference for the panel can be limited to unresolved matters only rather than start from scratch.
In the case of AS/VA, the parties agreed to a ratio solution but could not agree to the specifics (starting point/ variable ratio/etc). These matters were submitted to the arbitration panel.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
WestJet is not a 1932 company and Sunwing is not a 2007 company. They have been around about the same time and fly the same aircraft except the 787 and WestJet has 5 times the number of pilots.
DOH is the absolute best Sunwing can hope for and BOTL is the worst, and likely it will be somewhere in between, meaning for the common years of 2006 onward a ratio of 5 to 1, 787 fenced for minimum 3 years and next X number of upgrades come from WJ because of higher experience level. The only unknown is Encore. If they do get all their YOS, Sunwing pilots will get a nice pay raise and job security too.
DOH is the absolute best Sunwing can hope for and BOTL is the worst, and likely it will be somewhere in between, meaning for the common years of 2006 onward a ratio of 5 to 1, 787 fenced for minimum 3 years and next X number of upgrades come from WJ because of higher experience level. The only unknown is Encore. If they do get all their YOS, Sunwing pilots will get a nice pay raise and job security too.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
The AX/VX merger isn’t the great white hope where the Virgin pilots slayed the Alaskan pilots your holding your breath for the first Virgin pilot hit the list at #535, ratioed in for 2006-2012 hires and generally DOH after the 2012 hires.
No one cares you spent 5 years at Canadian North, or that you’ve paid dues in the forces. Lots of WS pilots paid those same dues.
The fact is your a post 2019 Sunwing hire, your off to the bottom of the integrated list (DOH) or very very close to it and you need to come to terms with that. You still haven’t explained what makes your days and year, the majority of which you likely spent laid off at sunwing more value able than a pilot on the Westjet list.
No one cares you spent 5 years at Canadian North, or that you’ve paid dues in the forces. Lots of WS pilots paid those same dues.
The fact is your a post 2019 Sunwing hire, your off to the bottom of the integrated list (DOH) or very very close to it and you need to come to terms with that. You still haven’t explained what makes your days and year, the majority of which you likely spent laid off at sunwing more value able than a pilot on the Westjet list.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
The jurisprudence (methodology) from the last half dozen or more ISL arbitrations south of the border has been ratio. It won’t be DOH. It won’t be staple. But either party can feel free to waste their time and money on making an extreme submission.elite wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:37 am
DOH is the absolute best Sunwing can hope for and BOTL is the worst, and likely it will be somewhere in between, meaning for the common years of 2006 onward a ratio of 5 to 1, 787 fenced for minimum 3 years and next X number of upgrades come from WJ because of higher experience level. The only unknown is Encore. If they do get all their YOS, Sunwing pilots will get a nice pay raise and job security too.
Mergers of ‘like and like’ are fairly straightforward to adjudicate. Ratio or variable ratio. ‘Like and unlike’ are more complicated. Ratio or variable ratio with a possible modified starting point on the list. Issues like the Encore seniority arrangement at WJ would further complicate the proceedings.
It is not a given that there will ever be an operational or ISL merger of these carriers with common ownership. But it never serves the collective pilot interest giving management tools be used to whipsaw the pilots. WS already has a high level of dysfunction in this regard with SWOOP.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
WS is a 1996 company. DOH of the number one guy there is 01 Feb 1996elite wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:37 am WestJet is not a 1932 company and Sunwing is not a 2007 company. They have been around about the same time and fly the same aircraft except the 787 and WestJet has 5 times the number of pilots.
DOH is the absolute best Sunwing can hope for and BOTL is the worst, and likely it will be somewhere in between, meaning for the common years of 2006 onward a ratio of 5 to 1, 787 fenced for minimum 3 years and next X number of upgrades come from WJ because of higher experience level. The only unknown is Encore. If they do get all their YOS, Sunwing pilots will get a nice pay raise and job security too.
WG is a 2004 company DOH of the number one guy there is 18 Oct 2004 (and the #2 guy is 25 Oct 2004)
5T and 7F have gone to arbitration over the seniority list merge. DOH is the big problem there as 7F is very senior. I expect that the outcome there will point the way for this merger.
Your point about Encore is unclear. If Encore gets their YOS how will that translate into a pay raise for the WG guys??
Fair point from rudder. As I said I looked for a reference with the Virgin Alaska thing but could not find anything
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Some of the comments and expectations seem very greedy and reminiscent of some of the more militant talks during Transat merger chat. No wonder that merger didn’t work!
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Sharklasers, you seem quite.....heated about my mental welfare. It's appreciated but not required. As earlier stated, if it sucks, I'm out. If it's still fun (post merger), I stay. It's a bit like the guys in the Emirates who have to two cups and when the BS cup is full, despite how full the gold cup is or is not, when the BS cup is full, it's time to leave. I'm here until the so called fun meter gets pegged the wrong way. Do I "need to come to terms" with anything? Nossir. This is basically my working hobby at this point.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:52 am The AX/VX merger isn’t the great white hope where the Virgin pilots slayed the Alaskan pilots your holding your breath for the first Virgin pilot hit the list at #535, ratioed in for 2006-2012 hires and generally DOH after the 2012 hires.
No one cares you spent 5 years at Canadian North, or that you’ve paid dues in the forces. Lots of WS pilots paid those same dues.
The fact is your a post 2019 Sunwing hire, your off to the bottom of the integrated list (DOH) or very very close to it and you need to come to terms with that. You still haven’t explained what makes your days and year, the majority of which you likely spent laid off at sunwing more value able than a pilot on the Westjet list.
As far as "explaining what makes make my time more or less valuable"..... when did that become a requirement for me to explain myself to you? Oh wait, it didn't, but I'll give you an answer anyways. The time is of the exact same value, although I might be able to make an argument that some of the 5T time was of greater training benefit. The "valley" (McKenzie River valley) as we called it was 6 sectors in 8ish hours of credit so lots of ups and downs versus parked in cruise for 6 hours. But really it's no more or less valuable than any other time.
The question for DOH versus ratio is fairness. Theoretically the #1 guy at WG could be downgraded to Q400 FO if the seniority were solely DOH and if WS,WJE and Swoop were all very senior. It's not the case but if that were true (in theory) would that be fair? What about his previous time elsewhere? It amazes people outside aviation that all your experience at other companies counts for nothing when you switch. Surgeons and lawyers certainly don't do it this way.
As far as being laid off from WG for 20 months you are absolutely correct. I was. What's your point? In some respects I quite enjoyed the time off since I never woke up to an alarm except to go fishing or surfing (or try to if I'm really honest). Health was excellent and I discovered, I don't need as much 'stuff' as I once thought.
Anyhow, I'll sign off since I am up early to go to where Justin Blackface goes to celebrate the new Truth and Recreation holiday. Off to Tofino with two WS friends to go surfing. They too are ex RCAF and so "paid their dues" as I did in the other outfit. We will have lots to talk about amongst ourselves.
As for your offer to come over to AC. Thanks but not anymore. I tried but got the big PFO back in 2013 or 14. Now, to come to AC with 4 years of flat pay? No thanks. Living in a crash pad on Dixon road hoping for a domestic block as I commute in from the west coast? No thanks. It's quality of life nowadays for me. I am truly free since I am debt free. It's whether or not it's fun or not in the coming months. TBD
Cheers.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Good God! No, he couldn’t! No bump, no flush are standard even in buy-outs, meaning no one will get displaced. Most importantly career progression prospect of Sunwing pilots which would have been command of a 737 is still intact, likely at higher pay, plus there is potential for WB aircraft sometime in the future if they like.
Your comments are exaggerated, sensationalized, and seem, dare I say entitled!
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
mijbil wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:34 amSharklasers, you seem quite.....heated about my mental welfare. It's appreciated but not required. As earlier stated, if it sucks, I'm out. If it's still fun (post merger), I stay. It's a bit like the guys in the Emirates who have to two cups and when the BS cup is full, despite how full the gold cup is or is not, when the BS cup is full, it's time to leave. I'm here until the so called fun meter gets pegged the wrong way. Do I "need to come to terms" with anything? Nossir. This is basically my working hobby at this point.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:52 am The AX/VX merger isn’t the great white hope where the Virgin pilots slayed the Alaskan pilots your holding your breath for the first Virgin pilot hit the list at #535, ratioed in for 2006-2012 hires and generally DOH after the 2012 hires.
No one cares you spent 5 years at Canadian North, or that you’ve paid dues in the forces. Lots of WS pilots paid those same dues.
The fact is your a post 2019 Sunwing hire, your off to the bottom of the integrated list (DOH) or very very close to it and you need to come to terms with that. You still haven’t explained what makes your days and year, the majority of which you likely spent laid off at sunwing more value able than a pilot on the Westjet list.
As far as "explaining what makes make my time more or less valuable"..... when did that become a requirement for me to explain myself to you? Oh wait, it didn't, but I'll give you an answer anyways. The time is of the exact same value, although I might be able to make an argument that some of the 5T time was of greater training benefit. The "valley" (McKenzie River valley) as we called it was 6 sectors in 8ish hours of credit so lots of ups and downs versus parked in cruise for 6 hours. But really it's no more or less valuable than any other time.
The question for DOH versus ratio is fairness. Theoretically the #1 guy at WG could be downgraded to Q400 FO if the seniority were solely DOH and if WS,WJE and Swoop were all very senior. It's not the case but if that were true (in theory) would that be fair? What about his previous time elsewhere? It amazes people outside aviation that all your experience at other companies counts for nothing when you switch. Surgeons and lawyers certainly don't do it this way.
As far as being laid off from WG for 20 months you are absolutely correct. I was. What's your point? In some respects I quite enjoyed the time off since I never woke up to an alarm except to go fishing or surfing (or try to if I'm really honest). Health was excellent and I discovered, I don't need as much 'stuff' as I once thought.
Anyhow, I'll sign off since I am up early to go to where Justin Blackface goes to celebrate the new Truth and Recreation holiday. Off to Tofino with two WS friends to go surfing. They too are ex RCAF and so "paid their dues" as I did in the other outfit. We will have lots to talk about amongst ourselves.
As for your offer to come over to AC. Thanks but not anymore. I tried but got the big PFO back in 2013 or 14. Now, to come to AC with 4 years of flat pay? No thanks. Living in a crash pad on Dixon road hoping for a domestic block as I commute in from the west coast? No thanks. It's quality of life nowadays for me. I am truly free since I am debt free. It's whether or not it's fun or not in the coming months. TBD
Cheers.
You are easily one of the most entitled posters I have read here for awhile.
Please help me understand your position.
You have spent what? 4-6 months actually flying for Sunwing and you feel deeply convinced that those 120-160 days (not counting weekends/vacation/sick leave exc) entitle you to a spot on the Westjet system seniority list ahead of people with years of time spent physically working in the Westjet ecosystem? In what reality do you base that argument?
Not only is that your position, you are rock solid convinced that anyone who disagrees with your thought process is divisive and against pilot unity?
Your starting position is so irrational Im starting to think that your likely a troll coming to spread discord in the Sunwing and WestJet pilot groups during a time when they should be working together to better the up industry. Dirty pool.
Last edited by Sharklasers on Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
What you guys forget is that both companies are growing and soon to be actively hiring again. Both were actively hiring prior to the pandemic. Ratios for date of hire don't necessarily get enacted just because of the size of the company being bought out.
WestJet has 150 airplanes and needs X number of captains today.
Sunwing has 40 airplanes and needs y number of captains today.
Assuming a temporary fence goes up for a year or two, both companies will likely have more airplanes two years from now creating a requirement for z number of captains (z>x+y).
If lists were merged strictly by DOH, no one loses a captain seat and no one's upgrade gets delayed. The only thing that gets a littler muddier is perhaps a high seniority Sunwing pilot bumping someone off of the 787 or an Encore pilot delaying a move up to mainline.
Now, it's not a perfect analogy because WestJet management has got multiple brands with different flow agreements to get to mainline etc.
Don't let management use this as a tool to further divide and conquer the employee group.
WestJet has 150 airplanes and needs X number of captains today.
Sunwing has 40 airplanes and needs y number of captains today.
Assuming a temporary fence goes up for a year or two, both companies will likely have more airplanes two years from now creating a requirement for z number of captains (z>x+y).
If lists were merged strictly by DOH, no one loses a captain seat and no one's upgrade gets delayed. The only thing that gets a littler muddier is perhaps a high seniority Sunwing pilot bumping someone off of the 787 or an Encore pilot delaying a move up to mainline.
Now, it's not a perfect analogy because WestJet management has got multiple brands with different flow agreements to get to mainline etc.
Don't let management use this as a tool to further divide and conquer the employee group.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Thank you Arnie for what seems to be a very pragmatic post.Arnie Pye wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:41 am What you guys forget is that both companies are growing and soon to be actively hiring again. Both were actively hiring prior to the pandemic. Ratios for date of hire don't necessarily get enacted just because of the size of the company being bought out.
WestJet has 150 airplanes and needs X number of captains today.
Sunwing has 40 airplanes and needs y number of captains today.
Assuming a temporary fence goes up for a year or two, both companies will likely have more airplanes two years from now creating a requirement for z number of captains (z>x+y).
If lists were merged strictly by DOH, no one loses a captain seat and no one's upgrade gets delayed. The only thing that gets a littler muddier is perhaps a high seniority Sunwing pilot bumping someone off of the 787 or an Encore pilot delaying a move up to mainline.
Now, it's not a perfect analogy because WestJet management has got multiple brands with different flow agreements to get to mainline etc.
Don't let management use this as a tool to further divide and conquer the employee group.
It is easy for folks at both companies to get emotional about this merger as there are so many unknowns at this point, and we were getting a glimpse of getting back to "normal" post pandemic.
Fact is we don't know how this will play out long term. The best we can do is have both groups work together and leave the emotional responses out of it. As Arnie said, we cannot let this be used as a tool to further divide and conquer the employee groups.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Why spend the money on a new tool when they have a well equipped toolbox capable of completing that task already?
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
What follows is one guy's opinion. Read or ignore, it matters not to me. Some people appreciate the effort I put into my posts. Other people think I am a tool of the company, spawn of the devil, or seriously bipolar. There is obviously some conjecture in what follows.
I was motivated to write this post when I heard that SunWing pilots got ahold of a DOH list composed by a well intentioned and computer savvy WJ pilot who was merely throwing out one idea. He meant no harm to SWG pilots but I am told that many SWG pilots did take offense to the list. I thought I should let SWG pilots know, without prejudicing the WJA/WSW/WJE pilots in the ensuing merger process, that there are significant hurdles in trying to achieve the DOH list that the WJ pilot made up.
No harm is meant to anyone in what follows. I do not believe I am exposing anything that hasn't already been told to numerous pilots who have applied to Encore (re the PTA) or that the SWG Merger Committee will learn in due time. I truly believe that the sooner that all affected pilots (3000+?) are aware of some of the significant legal issues involved, the sooner that all can adjust their expectations and make life decisions as required. My intent is not to inflame emotions. Perhaps that is unavoidable when discussing a merger, but I choose education (from what I understand - which may be flawed) over fantasy. You can decide my motivation if you wish.
I do not communicate with the WJA MEC nor its committees other than informally chatting with the occasional LEC or MEC rep who might venture into the waters of an internal forum.
I am a member in good standing of ALPA and the WJA/WSW bargaining unit with 19+ years of employment at WJA. I am a YYC based CA and approximately #250 on the seniority list of all WJ group pilots. I can just now hold the 787 CA if I chose YYZ.
John Swallow
PM me at any time.
705 eight 90 eight nine zero 6
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
SunWing Airlines = SWG
Swoop Airlines = WSW
WestJet Airlines = WJA
Encore Airlines = WJE
With respect, this line shows a fundamental misapprehension of the issues involved in the SunWing + WestJet merger and that's ok because I believe you are not an employee of any of the WJ group of companies. The first question I would ask you is what "lists" are you referring to? SWG pilots seniority list with _______?
It is only with time as this process progresses that the various issues will become front and center and clearer for all parties, but I think if one reviews the merger process step by step, the issues become clearer. I would invite anyone to clatify my understanding. Does anyone disagree that the likely course of events is:
1. At some point the purchase of SunWing Airlines (SWG) by WJ Group completes.
2. At some point, operational control (dispatch, crew scheduling, maintenance) will be ceded to WestJet in Calgary (I am unsure if this it necessary for what follows)
3. One of the parties (ALPA, Unifor, SunWing Airlines, WestJet Airlines, Swoop), likely ALPA, approaches the CIRB for a Single Employer declaration (under Section 35 of the Canada Labour Code ) between SunWing, Swoop, and WestJet (mainline).
4. Following investigation, SunWing and Swoop and WestJet (mainline) are declared a Single (common) Employer and all SunWing, Swoop and WestJet mainline pilots are placed in one bargaining unit.
5. Negotiations are commenced between Unifor and ALPA to construct a merged seniority list for the SWG/WJA/WSW bargaining unit.
-PAUSE-
NOTE 1: In the case of Swoop and WestJet, following negotiation between ALPA and WestJet and Swoop, Swoop voluntarily recognized ALPA as the bargaining agent for Swoop pilots and the parties agreed to approach the CIRB seeking the Single Employer designation. It was granted here.
NOTE 2: In early 2017, ALPA approached the CIRB and sought certification for a group of pilots comprising those who were employed at WestJet mainline. They did not seek to include Encore pilots in their description of the bargaining unit. Implicit in their request to the CIRB was that ALPA felt that the most appropriate unit for collective bargaining was one comprising only the WestJet mainline pilots. The certification was granted in a decision here and the WJ mainline pilots were placed in a bargaining unit by themselves.
NOTE 3: In late 2017, ALPA again approached the CIRB and sought certification for a group of pilots comprising those were employed at WestJet Encore. ALPA did NOT seek a Single (common) Employer designation (under Section 35 of the Code) between WestJet mainline and WestJet Encore although they were legally entitled to do so if they could make a prima facie case for requesting the declaration. The certification was granted in a decision here and the Westjet Encore pilots were placed in a bargaining unit by themselves.
NOTE 4: In 2019, a Pilot Transfer Agreement (PTA) was negotiated and agreed to by ALPA, WestJet and WestJet Encore that provided a mechanism for maintaining a separate list entitled "seniority List" that comprised all pilots at WestJet/Swoop/Encore in order of their first (pilot) date of hire at one of the three companies in the WestJet group of companies. This separate list governs transfers between the three companies according to the protocols specified in the PTA (attached to the WestJet CBA and the Emcore CBA as an LOU).
NOTE 5: There are several seniority style lists available to Swoop/WJ/Encore pilots including but not limited to separate seniority lists for WestJet pilots, Swoop pilots, and Encore pilots. Each of these lists contain a column entiled DOH for each pilot's DOH at their first WJ group company. It does not show, nor does any list available to WJ group pilots show a pilot's most recent date of hire. For instance, when a pilot resigns at Encore and is hired at Swoop or Westjet (who are considered a common employer), there is no way for a WJ group pilot to determine what on what date that occurred unless they have personal knowledge of that pilot's situation.
NOTE 6: There is no published seniority list that contains only the pilots in the WJA/WSW bargaining unit. There is no way for a WJA or a WSW pilot to determine the valid DOH (the date they were hired as a new hire at WestJet or Swoop) of each pilot in their bargaining unit. Generally, this isn't important per se, as POSITION on a seniority list, and more accurately POSITION on the "Seniority List" (which contains pilots in all three companies) is what governs in all position bids. Date of Hire isn't relevant. The very first DOH at a WestJet group company determines position on the "Serniority List" and this position will govern for the duration of a pilot's employment at WJA, WSW, or WJE as long as the PTA is in force.
NOTE 7: When a position bid is issued by management and according to the protocols established by the CBA and PTA, it is are open to all pilots in the WJA/WSW bargaining unit as well as those pilots in the WJE bargaining unit who have been released to "flow" to WJA or WSW. Although there is a guarantee of XX pilots per year who are allowed to flow from Encore, that number can be restricted to zero for operational requirements at Encore. Pilots hired at Swoop are subject to a 2 year freeze.
NOTE 8: In 2000, the CIRB decided in a decision reported here that Air Canada and Canadian Airlines were a Single Employer.
NOTE 9: In 1999, the CIRB decided (as it had in 1989) in a decision reported here that the five requirements for a determination of a Single Employer under the Code (now Section 35) were present between Air Canada and its wholly owned regional airlines (Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliancem and Air Nova). Although the five requirements were present, the CIRB declined to declare the companies Single (common) Employers as it determined there was no "valid labour relations purpose" to do so. Anyone discussing common employer issues in the upcoming merger between SunWing and WestJet would do well to understand generally what is and what isn't a "valid labour relations purpose" as understood by the CIRB.
NOTE 10: Because the WJA/WSW bargaining unit's seniority list, when it becomes available, is not ordered by DOH (DOH = "date of hire" at WJA or WSW), a DOH merge between SunWing pilots and the pilots in the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit is not immediately possible without adjusting for the fact that for the section of the list that begins in 2014 until present, the list could look like this (fictitious dates used):
SENIORITY NUMBER/NAME/DATE OF HIRE
.
.
.
425 xxxxxxx 22 October 2014
426 xxxxxxx 03 April 2018
427 xxxxxxx 12 December 2014
428 xxxxxxx 10 May 2018
.
.
.
NOTE 11: This issue isn't insurmountable. The WJA/WSW has a seniority list, even if it is not readily available, ordered by number. Rather quickly in the process, I believe the WJA/WSW Merger Committee will hand over the proper seniority list, ordered in the same order that it is today along with correct DOH and accompanied by employment data. The SWG Merger Committee will do the same.
NOTE 12: Although the ALPA Merger Policy does not govern the parties, a review of ALPA to ALPA and ALPA to non-ALPA merger decisions reveals that longevity, defined as length of service with the employer, is but one factor to consider in the determination of the merged seniority list. The three factors are:
1. LONGEVITY
2. CAREER EXPECTATIONS
3. STATUS and CATEGORY
NOTE 13: It is very unlikely, in my opinion, that there will be any change to the pre-merger order of the WSW/WJA seniority list. It is what it is. The parties will have to determine a process by which to deal with the section which is non-DOH. If the parties are unable to agree to a merged seniority list, I believe an arbitrator will be engaged and the protocol will include the specification that the pre-merger order of the seniority lists will be maintained in a merged list.
NOTE 14: If an arbitrator is engaged, he will be guided by the aims of the Code. The final merged list will be fair, meaning no windfall gains to either group. The result must promote effective labour relations and lead to labour relations peace. In the AC/CAI merger, several appeals and challenges followed the initial Lordon award and lead to changes. One takeaway was that the pre-merger economic status of Canadian was not a factor for consideration in the final list and to do so would have been unfair to the Canadian pilots.
NOTE 15: One possible scenario would see SWG pilots go to Swoop. WestJet controls the bid process so they could easily issue a position bid subject to the fences and restrictions in the merged seniority list that would have 470 (the approximate number of SunWing pilots) Swoop pilot positions available and zero WJ mainline positions. WestJet Encore could restrict flow such that zero pilots are permitted to flow (assuming a PTA is in force). The CIRB also has the power to decide which CBA is in force in a merger. Could they decide that the SWG CBA governs the SWG pilots if they were to go to Swoop? The WJA/WSW CBA expire 31 Dec 2022...
NOTE 16: Factors to consider:
i) Will the Encore pilots will be a party or observer to the merger process?
ii) If the above scenarios are in any way incorrect, is there a way to merge SunWing pilots with the "seniority list" which governs all pilots in the WestJet group of companies? Obviously I do not think so, but I am not a legally educated person. I am a person who has read some things. Period. It certainly would enable a DOH merge.
NOTE 17: The Encore pilots are obviously very concerned with what happens to them in the merger process. The PTA can still function in a post merger-world but would likely need renegotation as to its terms if it is to be included in the next CBA.
NOTE 18: The Encore pilots are highly motivated to seek a Single Employer declaration from the CIRB combining WSW/WJA/WJE in the same bargaining unit. This would make the "Seniority List" (containing all WJ group pilots) the actual seniority list for the WSW/WJA/WJE bargaining unit correctly ordered by DOH. Obviously, my opinion is that this will fail but parties are free to apply to the Board. ALPA can also decide to include Encore in the Single Employer declaration request involving SWG/WJA/WSW in the merger process with no loss of rights.
I was motivated to write this post when I heard that SunWing pilots got ahold of a DOH list composed by a well intentioned and computer savvy WJ pilot who was merely throwing out one idea. He meant no harm to SWG pilots but I am told that many SWG pilots did take offense to the list. I thought I should let SWG pilots know, without prejudicing the WJA/WSW/WJE pilots in the ensuing merger process, that there are significant hurdles in trying to achieve the DOH list that the WJ pilot made up.
No harm is meant to anyone in what follows. I do not believe I am exposing anything that hasn't already been told to numerous pilots who have applied to Encore (re the PTA) or that the SWG Merger Committee will learn in due time. I truly believe that the sooner that all affected pilots (3000+?) are aware of some of the significant legal issues involved, the sooner that all can adjust their expectations and make life decisions as required. My intent is not to inflame emotions. Perhaps that is unavoidable when discussing a merger, but I choose education (from what I understand - which may be flawed) over fantasy. You can decide my motivation if you wish.
I do not communicate with the WJA MEC nor its committees other than informally chatting with the occasional LEC or MEC rep who might venture into the waters of an internal forum.
I am a member in good standing of ALPA and the WJA/WSW bargaining unit with 19+ years of employment at WJA. I am a YYC based CA and approximately #250 on the seniority list of all WJ group pilots. I can just now hold the 787 CA if I chose YYZ.
John Swallow
PM me at any time.
705 eight 90 eight nine zero 6
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
SunWing Airlines = SWG
Swoop Airlines = WSW
WestJet Airlines = WJA
Encore Airlines = WJE
With respect, this line shows a fundamental misapprehension of the issues involved in the SunWing + WestJet merger and that's ok because I believe you are not an employee of any of the WJ group of companies. The first question I would ask you is what "lists" are you referring to? SWG pilots seniority list with _______?
It is only with time as this process progresses that the various issues will become front and center and clearer for all parties, but I think if one reviews the merger process step by step, the issues become clearer. I would invite anyone to clatify my understanding. Does anyone disagree that the likely course of events is:
1. At some point the purchase of SunWing Airlines (SWG) by WJ Group completes.
2. At some point, operational control (dispatch, crew scheduling, maintenance) will be ceded to WestJet in Calgary (I am unsure if this it necessary for what follows)
3. One of the parties (ALPA, Unifor, SunWing Airlines, WestJet Airlines, Swoop), likely ALPA, approaches the CIRB for a Single Employer declaration (under Section 35 of the Canada Labour Code ) between SunWing, Swoop, and WestJet (mainline).
4. Following investigation, SunWing and Swoop and WestJet (mainline) are declared a Single (common) Employer and all SunWing, Swoop and WestJet mainline pilots are placed in one bargaining unit.
5. Negotiations are commenced between Unifor and ALPA to construct a merged seniority list for the SWG/WJA/WSW bargaining unit.
-PAUSE-
NOTE 1: In the case of Swoop and WestJet, following negotiation between ALPA and WestJet and Swoop, Swoop voluntarily recognized ALPA as the bargaining agent for Swoop pilots and the parties agreed to approach the CIRB seeking the Single Employer designation. It was granted here.
NOTE 2: In early 2017, ALPA approached the CIRB and sought certification for a group of pilots comprising those who were employed at WestJet mainline. They did not seek to include Encore pilots in their description of the bargaining unit. Implicit in their request to the CIRB was that ALPA felt that the most appropriate unit for collective bargaining was one comprising only the WestJet mainline pilots. The certification was granted in a decision here and the WJ mainline pilots were placed in a bargaining unit by themselves.
NOTE 3: In late 2017, ALPA again approached the CIRB and sought certification for a group of pilots comprising those were employed at WestJet Encore. ALPA did NOT seek a Single (common) Employer designation (under Section 35 of the Code) between WestJet mainline and WestJet Encore although they were legally entitled to do so if they could make a prima facie case for requesting the declaration. The certification was granted in a decision here and the Westjet Encore pilots were placed in a bargaining unit by themselves.
NOTE 4: In 2019, a Pilot Transfer Agreement (PTA) was negotiated and agreed to by ALPA, WestJet and WestJet Encore that provided a mechanism for maintaining a separate list entitled "seniority List" that comprised all pilots at WestJet/Swoop/Encore in order of their first (pilot) date of hire at one of the three companies in the WestJet group of companies. This separate list governs transfers between the three companies according to the protocols specified in the PTA (attached to the WestJet CBA and the Emcore CBA as an LOU).
NOTE 5: There are several seniority style lists available to Swoop/WJ/Encore pilots including but not limited to separate seniority lists for WestJet pilots, Swoop pilots, and Encore pilots. Each of these lists contain a column entiled DOH for each pilot's DOH at their first WJ group company. It does not show, nor does any list available to WJ group pilots show a pilot's most recent date of hire. For instance, when a pilot resigns at Encore and is hired at Swoop or Westjet (who are considered a common employer), there is no way for a WJ group pilot to determine what on what date that occurred unless they have personal knowledge of that pilot's situation.
NOTE 6: There is no published seniority list that contains only the pilots in the WJA/WSW bargaining unit. There is no way for a WJA or a WSW pilot to determine the valid DOH (the date they were hired as a new hire at WestJet or Swoop) of each pilot in their bargaining unit. Generally, this isn't important per se, as POSITION on a seniority list, and more accurately POSITION on the "Seniority List" (which contains pilots in all three companies) is what governs in all position bids. Date of Hire isn't relevant. The very first DOH at a WestJet group company determines position on the "Serniority List" and this position will govern for the duration of a pilot's employment at WJA, WSW, or WJE as long as the PTA is in force.
NOTE 7: When a position bid is issued by management and according to the protocols established by the CBA and PTA, it is are open to all pilots in the WJA/WSW bargaining unit as well as those pilots in the WJE bargaining unit who have been released to "flow" to WJA or WSW. Although there is a guarantee of XX pilots per year who are allowed to flow from Encore, that number can be restricted to zero for operational requirements at Encore. Pilots hired at Swoop are subject to a 2 year freeze.
NOTE 8: In 2000, the CIRB decided in a decision reported here that Air Canada and Canadian Airlines were a Single Employer.
NOTE 9: In 1999, the CIRB decided (as it had in 1989) in a decision reported here that the five requirements for a determination of a Single Employer under the Code (now Section 35) were present between Air Canada and its wholly owned regional airlines (Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliancem and Air Nova). Although the five requirements were present, the CIRB declined to declare the companies Single (common) Employers as it determined there was no "valid labour relations purpose" to do so. Anyone discussing common employer issues in the upcoming merger between SunWing and WestJet would do well to understand generally what is and what isn't a "valid labour relations purpose" as understood by the CIRB.
NOTE 10: Because the WJA/WSW bargaining unit's seniority list, when it becomes available, is not ordered by DOH (DOH = "date of hire" at WJA or WSW), a DOH merge between SunWing pilots and the pilots in the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit is not immediately possible without adjusting for the fact that for the section of the list that begins in 2014 until present, the list could look like this (fictitious dates used):
SENIORITY NUMBER/NAME/DATE OF HIRE
.
.
.
425 xxxxxxx 22 October 2014
426 xxxxxxx 03 April 2018
427 xxxxxxx 12 December 2014
428 xxxxxxx 10 May 2018
.
.
.
NOTE 11: This issue isn't insurmountable. The WJA/WSW has a seniority list, even if it is not readily available, ordered by number. Rather quickly in the process, I believe the WJA/WSW Merger Committee will hand over the proper seniority list, ordered in the same order that it is today along with correct DOH and accompanied by employment data. The SWG Merger Committee will do the same.
NOTE 12: Although the ALPA Merger Policy does not govern the parties, a review of ALPA to ALPA and ALPA to non-ALPA merger decisions reveals that longevity, defined as length of service with the employer, is but one factor to consider in the determination of the merged seniority list. The three factors are:
1. LONGEVITY
2. CAREER EXPECTATIONS
3. STATUS and CATEGORY
NOTE 13: It is very unlikely, in my opinion, that there will be any change to the pre-merger order of the WSW/WJA seniority list. It is what it is. The parties will have to determine a process by which to deal with the section which is non-DOH. If the parties are unable to agree to a merged seniority list, I believe an arbitrator will be engaged and the protocol will include the specification that the pre-merger order of the seniority lists will be maintained in a merged list.
NOTE 14: If an arbitrator is engaged, he will be guided by the aims of the Code. The final merged list will be fair, meaning no windfall gains to either group. The result must promote effective labour relations and lead to labour relations peace. In the AC/CAI merger, several appeals and challenges followed the initial Lordon award and lead to changes. One takeaway was that the pre-merger economic status of Canadian was not a factor for consideration in the final list and to do so would have been unfair to the Canadian pilots.
NOTE 15: One possible scenario would see SWG pilots go to Swoop. WestJet controls the bid process so they could easily issue a position bid subject to the fences and restrictions in the merged seniority list that would have 470 (the approximate number of SunWing pilots) Swoop pilot positions available and zero WJ mainline positions. WestJet Encore could restrict flow such that zero pilots are permitted to flow (assuming a PTA is in force). The CIRB also has the power to decide which CBA is in force in a merger. Could they decide that the SWG CBA governs the SWG pilots if they were to go to Swoop? The WJA/WSW CBA expire 31 Dec 2022...
NOTE 16: Factors to consider:
i) Will the Encore pilots will be a party or observer to the merger process?
ii) If the above scenarios are in any way incorrect, is there a way to merge SunWing pilots with the "seniority list" which governs all pilots in the WestJet group of companies? Obviously I do not think so, but I am not a legally educated person. I am a person who has read some things. Period. It certainly would enable a DOH merge.
NOTE 17: The Encore pilots are obviously very concerned with what happens to them in the merger process. The PTA can still function in a post merger-world but would likely need renegotation as to its terms if it is to be included in the next CBA.
NOTE 18: The Encore pilots are highly motivated to seek a Single Employer declaration from the CIRB combining WSW/WJA/WJE in the same bargaining unit. This would make the "Seniority List" (containing all WJ group pilots) the actual seniority list for the WSW/WJA/WJE bargaining unit correctly ordered by DOH. Obviously, my opinion is that this will fail but parties are free to apply to the Board. ALPA can also decide to include Encore in the Single Employer declaration request involving SWG/WJA/WSW in the merger process with no loss of rights.
Last edited by ALPApolicy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:08 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet
tl;dr = a DOH merge is problematic. Encore pilots unlikely to be included in merger. PTA not necessarily dead. What happens is anyone's guess. Life will go on.
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
Will a combined WJ / SW still run the same number of flights to every Caribbean island or Mexican seaside tourist trap?Arnie Pye wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:41 am What you guys forget is that both companies are growing and soon to be actively hiring again. Both were actively hiring prior to the pandemic. Ratios for date of hire don't necessarily get enacted just because of the size of the company being bought out.
WestJet has 150 airplanes and needs X number of captains today.
Sunwing has 40 airplanes and needs y number of captains today.
Assuming a temporary fence goes up for a year or two, both companies will likely have more airplanes two years from now creating a requirement for z number of captains (z>x+y).
If lists were merged strictly by DOH, no one loses a captain seat and no one's upgrade gets delayed. The only thing that gets a littler muddier is perhaps a high seniority Sunwing pilot bumping someone off of the 787 or an Encore pilot delaying a move up to mainline.
Now, it's not a perfect analogy because WestJet management has got multiple brands with different flow agreements to get to mainline etc.
Don't let management use this as a tool to further divide and conquer the employee group.
I doubt it.
There will be a rationalization of capacity to drive yields and efficiencies.
Given that, how can Z be greater than X+Y?
Re: Sunwing/Westjet
In a word, expansion. The expectation is that a) WestJet will not require the 25 EU aircraft in Sunwing’s winter fleet (Sunwing actually has only 18 or fewer aircraft of its own), and b) it will have year round flights to sun destinations consolidated on WestJet whereas Sunwing did not operate summer flights to sun destinations, and c) exploring and adding new routes.