POST PAY IN JOB ADS!

[IKEA_Monkey]

Is this a website for airlines or for PILOTS?

FOR TOO LONG companies have been hiding behind cute little job ads that DO NOT LIST THEIR PAY! Last time I checked there's a growing labor shortage with a lot less ATPL's flying around! OUR LICENCES ARE IN DEMAND. This website should reflect that demand appropriately!

Therefore, it should be a requirement that all "free" job ads listed on AvCanada POST THEIR PAY. None of this mumbo jumbo about "work life balance" or "competitive pay packages". We all know that amounts to horse sh*t!

Let pilots make informed decisions! Promote pilot PAY!

[lownslow]

Pay AND schedule required to achieve that pay.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Is this a website for airlines or for PILOTS?

FOR TOO LONG companies have been hiding behind cute little job ads that DO NOT LIST THEIR PAY! Last time I checked there's a growing labor shortage with a lot less ATPL's flying around! OUR LICENCES ARE IN DEMAND. This website should reflect that demand appropriately!

Therefore, it should be a requirement that all "free" job ads listed on AvCanada POST THEIR PAY. None of this mumbo jumbo about "work life balance" or "competitive pay packages". We all know that amounts to horse sh*t!

Let pilots make informed decisions! Promote pilot PAY!

For the most part the 705 pay scales are known or easily sourced. All else, most cetainly 703 and to some extent 704 is usually a matter of negioations. Therefore anything posted could be misleading or a fabrication to meet your demand of POST THEIR PAY.

[digits_]

For the most part the 705 pay scales are known or easily sourced. All else, most cetainly 703 and to some extent 704 is usually a matter of negioations. Therefore anything posted could be misleading or a fabrication to meet your demand of POST THEIR PAY.

That's true, but an easy work around would be to post a salary band, at least then you have an idea.

"Salary starting at 60k / year"
"Salary 60 000 - 90 000 depending on experience + per diems"

Gives you something.

As long as pilots don't massively turn down job offers, generating a lot of wasted time in the hiring departments, it likely won't change. It's not a problem limited to aviation either. Lots of companies keep their salaries secret. I assume they think they would get some advantage from that. I personally doubt it.

[goingmissed]

For the most part the 705 pay scales are known or easily sourced. All else, most cetainly 703 and to some extent 704 is usually a matter of negioations. Therefore anything posted could be misleading or a fabrication to meet your demand of POST THEIR PAY.

That's true, but an easy work around would be to post a salary band, at least then you have an idea.

"Salary starting at 60k / year"
"Salary 60 000 - 90 000 depending on experience + per diems"

Gives you something.

As long as pilots don't massively turn down job offers, generating a lot of wasted time in the hiring departments, it likely won't change. It's not a problem limited to aviation either. Lots of companies keep their salaries secret. I assume they think they would get some advantage from that. I personally doubt it.

Per Diem is not compensation. If you are paid $60,000 per year plus per diem, you are not being paid more than $60,000 per year.

[digits_]

For the most part the 705 pay scales are known or easily sourced. All else, most cetainly 703 and to some extent 704 is usually a matter of negioations. Therefore anything posted could be misleading or a fabrication to meet your demand of POST THEIR PAY.

That's true, but an easy work around would be to post a salary band, at least then you have an idea.

"Salary starting at 60k / year"
"Salary 60 000 - 90 000 depending on experience + per diems"

Gives you something.

As long as pilots don't massively turn down job offers, generating a lot of wasted time in the hiring departments, it likely won't change. It's not a problem limited to aviation either. Lots of companies keep their salaries secret. I assume they think they would get some advantage from that. I personally doubt it.

Per Diem is not compensation. If you are paid $60,000 per year plus per diem, you are not being paid more than $60,000 per year.

Ah for f**** sake. Would you prefer a job that pays you 60k or one that would pay you 60k + per diems?

It's part of your compensation. Pretty sure every pilot, including you, would want to know if a job pays you per diems while you're on the road or not. And if so, how much it is.

[goingmissed]

That's true, but an easy work around would be to post a salary band, at least then you have an idea.

"Salary starting at 60k / year"
"Salary 60 000 - 90 000 depending on experience + per diems"

Gives you something.

As long as pilots don't massively turn down job offers, generating a lot of wasted time in the hiring departments, it likely won't change. It's not a problem limited to aviation either. Lots of companies keep their salaries secret. I assume they think they would get some advantage from that. I personally doubt it.

Per Diem is not compensation. If you are paid $60,000 per year plus per diem, you are not being paid more than $60,000 per year.

Ah for f**** sake. Would you prefer a job that pays you 60k or one that would pay you 60k + per diems?

It's part of your compensation. Pretty sure every pilot, including you, would want to know if a job pays you per diems while you're on the road or not. And if so, how much it is.

Check the attitude.

Per diem is not compensation. Compensation is for work completed; per diem is reimbursement for monies spent.

Ask your FAs if their paychecks were significantly smaller during COVID even though they were still paid MMG.

[digits_]

Check the attitude.

If a company were to put in a job ad:

"Salary 60 000 - 90 000 depending on experience + per diems"

and your first reaction is 'Per Diem is not compensation. If you are paid $60,000 per year plus per diem, you are not being paid more than $60,000 per year.', then it's really not my attitude that needs to be checked. And you can be sure that your bank account would have a way lower balance if you *didn't* get the per diem option.

Per diem is not compensation. Compensation is for work completed; per diem is reimbursement for monies spent.

Ask your FAs if their paychecks were significantly smaller during COVID even though they were still paid MMG.

It's not a reumbursement for monies spent. If you spend more, you won't get more per diems, if you spend less, you still get a fixed amount of per diems. Ideally it would even out, but that's not guaranteed.

You didn't answer the question. Do you want a job that pays you 60k or one that pays you 60k with per diems?

Do you want one that pays you 25 dollars a day for every night away from base or one that pays you 90 dollars a day for every night away from base?


If you don't value per diems, don't be surprised employers won't be offering it anymore, or reduce it drastically.

You're acting as if it is guaranteed to receive a certain amount of per diems when you are away from home. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't. And it is an important part of what a company pays you if you are away from home 20 days a month.

[goingmissed]

I want a job that pays me for my time worked, not for when the engines are running.

I want a job that pays me what I'm worth based on my education and experience, not less than a weekend manager at McDonalds.

I want a job where management doesn't pretend that per diem is income to reduce base salaries.

Unfortunately, I'm in an industry where hours of work a day go unpaid, low wages are wide spread, and false narratives are common place regarding what is compensation for time worked and what isn't.

[digits_]

Sure, but all irrelevant to the topic.

Do you want a job ad to specify how much per diems (if any) you're getting? Or one that keeps quiet about it so you have to ask about it in an interview?

[‘Bob’]

Per diems are part of compensation.

Not a base wage.. but still.

Not getting per diems means you are paying out of pocket for meals. On salary that is taxed.

Inadequate per diems mean you are paying some of that money yourself out of your pocket.

A good per diem covers everything and doesn’t require you to carry one of those dumb coolers with rotting food around for a pairing.

An awesome per diem lets you pocket tax-free money—either by amount or by schedule or both… or better yet, use it for at home spending so you can put your most heavily taxed portion of your salary into deductions.

[Loon-A-Tic]

I'm happy if the per diem covers my bar tab, its the Scardale Diet Plan when I'm on the road.

[rookiepilot]

I want a job that pays me for my time worked, not for when the engines are running.

I want a job that pays me what I'm worth based on my education and experience, not less than a weekend manager at McDonalds.

I want a job where management doesn't pretend that per diem is income to reduce base salaries.

Unfortunately, I'm in an industry where hours of work a day go unpaid, low wages are wide spread, and false narratives are common place regarding what is compensation for time worked and what isn't.

STRIKE.

I'm on the "business" side and I've seen enough bullshit from big companies.

Amazon won't deal with unions, and so is going into HIGH SCHOOLS with their permission -- or is is for some $$$$ -- to try to recruit students to work in their sweatshops.

National walkouts. Lets go FFS. Burn it the F--- down.

[7ECA]

National walkouts. Lets go FFS. Burn it the F--- down.

Strange attitude to hear from someone in the business community, which is usually fairly adamant that even the faintest whiff of an employee group considering unionization (or a unionized employee group considering a strike vote/strike action/wildcat strike) to be grounds for all manner of uncivilized, yet not frowned upon, action against their staff.

[Flightgame]

Is this a website for airlines or for PILOTS?

FOR TOO LONG companies have been hiding behind cute little job ads that DO NOT LIST THEIR PAY! Last time I checked there's a growing labor shortage with a lot less ATPL's flying around! OUR LICENCES ARE IN DEMAND. This website should reflect that demand appropriately!

Therefore, it should be a requirement that all "free" job ads listed on AvCanada POST THEIR PAY. None of this mumbo jumbo about "work life balance" or "competitive pay packages". We all know that amounts to horse sh*t!

Let pilots make informed decisions! Promote pilot PAY!

Totally agree !

[rookiepilot]

National walkouts. Lets go FFS. Burn it the F--- down.

Strange attitude to hear from someone in the business community, which is usually fairly adamant that even the faintest whiff of an employee group considering unionization (or a unionized employee group considering a strike vote/strike action/wildcat strike) to be grounds for all manner of uncivilized, yet not frowned upon, action against their staff.

So you’re an absolute authority on exactly what every single person thinks on issues solely based on their background, eh?

[photofly]

I want a job that pays me what I'm worth based on my education and experience, not less than a weekend manager at McDonalds.

Sorry to quibble, but you *have* a job that pays you what you're worth. If it paid less than you're worth, you'd not turn up for work.
What you actually want is a job that pays you what you think you're worth. Quite different.

[digits_]

I want a job that pays me what I'm worth based on my education and experience, not less than a weekend manager at McDonalds.

Sorry to quibble, but you *have* a job that pays you what you're worth. If it paid less than you're worth, you'd not turn up for work.
What you actually want is a job that pays you what you think you're worth. Quite different.

That philosophy might be true in a pure free labor market, but that's not completely the case here. Union contracts starting out with low pay and ending with a salary that's way higher after 25 years, modify those numbers artificially.

So a pilot might not be paid what he's worth now, but accepts sub-par wages because he expects to be paid what he's worth over a career.

[twa22]

I want a job that pays me what I'm worth based on my education and experience, not less than a weekend manager at McDonalds.

Sorry to quibble, but you *have* a job that pays you what you're worth. If it paid less than you're worth, you'd not turn up for work.
What you actually want is a job that pays you what you think you're worth. Quite different.

That philosophy might be true in a pure free labor market, but that's not completely the case here. Union contracts starting out with low pay and ending with a salary that's way higher after 25 years, modify those numbers artificially.

So a pilot might not be paid what he's worth now, but accepts sub-par wages because he expects to be paid what he's worth over a career.

More like we accept shit pay as pilots because we have no choice until we can actually make good money... well, we do have a choice, to all collectively, as a group, say no, and then force the hand of these operators paying less then mcdonalds managers, but, that's all a nice pipe dream, although, maybe one day, just maybe...

[rookiepilot]

Seriously?

I think the whole concept of TFW’s is F——d up. Can’t believe thats allowed.

Rips you guys off.

You guys have LOUSY unions. Hello?

What do your union leaders do for their rich dues? Really?

Hey I’m just an observer…..

[Bede]

More like we accept shit pay as pilots because we have no choice until we can actually make good money... well, we do have a choice, to all collectively, as a group, say no, and then force the hand of these operators paying less then mcdonalds managers, but, that's all a nice pipe dream, although, maybe one day, just maybe...

You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.

[twa22]

More like we accept shit pay as pilots because we have no choice until we can actually make good money... well, we do have a choice, to all collectively, as a group, say no, and then force the hand of these operators paying less then mcdonalds managers, but, that's all a nice pipe dream, although, maybe one day, just maybe...

You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.

But do I really? I have just under 1000 hours and I'm still struggling to find a job, and I'm not the only one in the same boat, many others like me with similar hours are also having a hard time

So what are we lower hour guys/gals supposed to do when a shit job paying 30k a year comes around, say no? I'd personally love to, hell, I make double that now in an unqualified job barely doing any work, it absolutely blows my mind how that's possible... The logical thing would be to do never even go back to aviation. Here's the thing, I love flying, and like many, I can't stand an office job, and can tolerate non office jobs, but I'd rather fly. So while I can say no all day to horrible paying flying jobs in poor working conditions, which I would, I unfortunately wouldn't get any hours in my logbook so I can seek greener pastures down the road

I am all for hearing your suggestions of where to find a place to build hours while making a decent wage, and actually getting that job, because after everything I just told you, I doubt that exists

End of the day, someone will always take that 30k a year job to get those hours... Sad reality we have to deal with until we all say enough as a collective unit

[Roar]

More like we accept shit pay as pilots because we have no choice until we can actually make good money... well, we do have a choice, to all collectively, as a group, say no, and then force the hand of these operators paying less then mcdonalds managers, but, that's all a nice pipe dream, although, maybe one day, just maybe...

You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.

But do I really? I have just under 1000 hours and I'm still struggling to find a job, and I'm not the only one in the same boat, many others like me with similar hours are also having a hard time

So what are we lower hour guys/gals supposed to do when a shit job paying 30k a year comes around, say no? I'd personally love to, hell, I make double that now in an unqualified job barely doing any work, it absolutely blows my mind how that's possible... The logical thing would be to do never even go back to aviation. Here's the thing, I love flying, and like many, I can't stand an office job, and can tolerate non office jobs, but I'd rather fly. So while I can say no all day to horrible paying flying jobs in poor working conditions, which I would, I unfortunately wouldn't get any hours in my logbook so I can seek greener pastures down the road

I am all for hearing your suggestions of where to find a place to build hours while making a decent wage, and actually getting that job, because after everything I just told you, I doubt that exists

End of the day, someone will always take that 30k a year job to get those hours... Sad reality we have to deal with until we all say enough as a collective unit
[/quote]

What do you do? Well here’s an opportunity.
viewtopic.php?t=157077

[goingmissed]

Seriously?

I think the whole concept of TFW’s is F——d up. Can’t believe thats allowed.

Rips you guys off.

You guys have LOUSY unions. Hello?

What do your union leaders do for their rich dues? Really?

Hey I’m just an observer…..

My union reps are paid the same shit salaries as the rest of us and are as pissed off as the rest of us.

I am optimistic for the future. It starts with a conversation about how your pilots need to work two jobs to make ends meet.

[jeremyh1]

Is this a website for airlines or for PILOTS?

FOR TOO LONG companies have been hiding behind cute little job ads that DO NOT LIST THEIR PAY! Last time I checked there's a growing labor shortage with a lot less ATPL's flying around! OUR LICENCES ARE IN DEMAND. This website should reflect that demand appropriately!

Therefore, it should be a requirement that all "free" job ads listed on AvCanada POST THEIR PAY. None of this mumbo jumbo about "work life balance" or "competitive pay packages". We all know that amounts to horse sh*t!

Let pilots make informed decisions! Promote pilot PAY!

Great idea. I don’t reply much here but this post definitely resonated with me…

Perhaps this will finally convince some of these smaller companies to stop trying to convince us pilots to come work for them with cutesy little ads about how much fun they all have on the road with each other because they stay in such fancy hotels like the Garden Inn and Courtyard whilst they also get to dine out at equally fancy restaurants like Kelsey’s and Montana’s… as if that’s an actual selling point. I forgot to mention how you have to be a “team player” by doing duties “as assigned” because you work in a small operation and being taken advantage of is a normal expectation. Of course the kicker is “we also have super immaculate and incredibly fun to fly small turboprops and jets, however if you hope to have an actual schedule published to the CARS minimums or perhaps even a little better than that, this job isn’t for you… your days off are the days you don’t fly.”

Glad someone finally made mention of this. Job ads should definitely include rates of pay, plus the soliciting company’s expectations in terms of time away from base and time free from duty. No more “pay and schedule commensurate with experience” BS. That game is over there folks, it’s not 2010 anymore.

Jeremy