All you underpaid airline pilots...

[goingmissed]

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably take a week off and get it done before the end of the year - I want to get the hell out of Canadian aviation. But what might be chump change to you or I could be a lot of money to throw away for nothing to a Jazz or Encore FO stuck living in YYZ. I think as we start to see more success stories people are going to be less afraid of the risk and find it easier to get it done.

You mean a pilot bringing in less than $1200 (~$950USD) twice a month would have trouble shelling out $5000 USD?

Wages here are a *** joke.

-- Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as anger directed at you. I am disappointed with the Canadian aviation industry.

[JHR]

I spent around $7500cad on my FAA. Of course I had to fly down to FLL twice since day one of the first course I got the Rona
Half of every class is full of Canadians that have been anticipating this sort of thing. No doubt Frontier received over a hundred resume already. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. "What the hell is going on in Canada that is causing guys with A380 PIC time to apply to a low cost carrier?"

[Needswork2020]

I did mine in 04' as part of the B747 course I was on in MIA.. the only extra cost was the medical and the GLEIM (SP?) course for the written test.
In my mid 40's now I can tell you it's paid off so many times. Short BBJ contracts, ferrying a N reg.. The FAA ATP is infinitely more valuable than Canada's.

Get on er' boys. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

(and yeah.. I have PIC 330 and 320 time..happy to sit right seat and nap for 1000hrs to meet the PIC 121 requirement.)

[Ash Ketchum]

I am thinking I may just invest my time, and money into the conversion if this trend continues. Initially the plan was to wait for the EB-2 NIW to get approved before converting but that may not even be necessary now.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am thinking I may just invest my time, and money into the conversion if this trend continues. Initially the plan was to wait for the EB-2 NIW to get approved before converting but that may not even be necessary now.

If you are thinking of putting an NIW together, it would behoove you to have the ATP in your back pocket.

[mmm..bacon]

...a Jazz or Encore FO stuck living in YYZ. I think as we start to see more success stories people are going to be less afraid of the risk and find it easier to get it done.

My perception is that the average Jazz/Enc F/O isn't qualified for this job with the PIC requirements that they ask. OTOH, If I were a 1-5 year Captain, I'd be looking at this really closely...

[BE02 Driver]

Some thoughts on the thread from reading through.....

1. E-3 visas are happening for Aussies, I have met many down here. I have also met H1B visa and EB-2/3 (Green Card) sponsorship pilots and EB-2 NIW as well from various airlines.

2. The ATP-CTP course can be found for as little as $3500 USD. Medical is about $200 with a EKG, the written test is $150. The Letter from TC is free. Gleim or Sheppard air is $65 or so for studying. So $5000 CND is probably about correct.

3. Having a job offer before doing a course is irrelevant. Most states are "at will" employment, you'd have no recourse if they change their mind. You can quit with no notice for any reason, and they can terminate with no notice for any reason.

4. Fortune favors the bold. If a $5000 investment in your future is too much to leave the aviation industry in Canada, well, then you are right where you belong. That under achieving attitude is why the pay/conditions are so poor there in the first place.

5. The pay is way, way more than double Canada by time you factor in benefits, taxes, buying power of the USD, and the pay rates at the US carriers. First year Captain at a ULCC will out earn, or come very close to the most senior airline pilots in Canada if you factor in the full circumstances. Taxes being the biggest buy a long shot. Unless you are dumb enough to want to live in California or New York of course. Or if you think it's smart to commute from Canada and give your USD to JT.

6. If you move to Texas, Tennessee, Florida, New Hampshire, Washington State, Alaska there is no state income tax. So if you work for Frontier you can expect a 4 year upgrade to the tune of $223,000 USD/year base. Federal taxes are about $52,000 for that salary and only increase to the next bracket at half a million. Medical/Dental/Vision is about $400/pay for a family give or take and they pay 16% of you gross income into your retirement with no match required. For those keeping track that's in the neighborhood of $13-14,000 USD take home (base) per month plus a pension paid for you, and includes benefits.

[Just another canuck]

I had to take a break from this forum awhile back, but finally a thread that interests me.

I’ll send an email off to these guys myself, but perhaps someone here already has the answers. And just a few things to point out.

One poster said his buddy got the nod and they hope to be in an October course. This tells me Frontier will be using H1B’s, which from my experience with several different lawyers, is not a visa you should be leaving your mainline job in Canada to work under. It, like an E3 for the Aussies, is not a pathway to citizenship. They are time limited visas. You will be restricted to working with Frontier and should something happen at Frontier, you will not have the option of applying to the guys next door. You will be sent home. Now, is Frontier getting guys down quick then applying for the EB2 while you’re down there? That’s a question worth asking. That being said, not everyone that meets the conditions of the Brookfield job ad will meet the requirements of the EB2, which are really the same as the EB2 NIW. 10 years minimum experience, post secondary in your field, etc., etc. My point is the 30 year old at AC leaves for Frontier on an H1B, but then gets sent packing cause they don’t qualify for the EB2. Lawyers I’ve spoken with are processing NIW’s for Aussies who are actively in the States on E3’’s, because in the end the E3 is useless and it’s the EB2, the green card, which is what you need.

Atlas was hiring E3’s, but also processing EB2’s for people which takes 18 months give or take, so I don’t believe Frontier is doing that if start times are only months away. Even the regionals like Breeze were offering EB2’s. There is a faster processing time for the EB2 petition but not for the appointment at the consulate so best case an EB2 still takes a year to process.

The unions are actively blocking anyone on H1B’s or E3’s from flowing through to the legacies. The unions are actively fighting the use of and renewal of E3’s and H1B’s. The don’t mind EB2’s because you are a green card holder, eventually a citizen and are part of the system. E3 and H1B holders are our TFW equivalents. We don’t like them here. How do you think the U.S. guys will feel?

My two cents. I wouldn’t leave a major in Canada to go work in the States on an H1B or any time limited visa. I would leave tomorrow to work on a green card. I’ve applied for the NIW process and I guess this job ad has me a little concerned now. That being said, I’m surprised Frontier is doing it. You WILL NOT see American, Delta or United doing it. Or FedEx or UPS. Those are the ones I would like to work for. A successful EB2 NIW will at least, allow me to apply.

5 grand is nothing. Drop in the bucket. If you really want to work and live in the United States. If 5K makes you hesitant, you’re better off where you are.

[schnitzel2k3]

Let's hear some success stories guys when they start to roll in.

Discussing rather than withholding is how we benefit our winged brethren. If you are successful then what does it hurt to share your success AND assist others in succeeding?

The pathetic situation at Air Canada is what happens when people think solely for themselves and completely abandon the crew resource concept. Toxic management has managed to divide and conquer that flight group like nobody's business. I had a Bahamian describe that situation as 'Black Crab Syndrome', keep people from succeeding and in the bucket so they all die from the same fate.

I'm a little behind but catching up here, hoping to have something to look forward to when the course is all done.

[BE02 Driver]

I had to take a break from this forum awhile back, but finally a thread that interests me.

I’ll send an email off to these guys myself, but perhaps someone here already has the answers. And just a few things to point out.

One poster said his buddy got the nod and they hope to be in an October course. This tells me Frontier will be using H1B’s, which from my experience with several different lawyers, is not a visa you should be leaving your mainline job in Canada to work under. It, like an E3 for the Aussies, is not a pathway to citizenship. They are time limited visas. You will be restricted to working with Frontier and should something happen at Frontier, you will not have the option of applying to the guys next door. You will be sent home. Now, is Frontier getting guys down quick then applying for the EB2 while you’re down there? That’s a question worth asking. That being said, not everyone that meets the conditions of the Brookfield job ad will meet the requirements of the EB2, which are really the same as the EB2 NIW. 10 years minimum experience, post secondary in your field, etc., etc. My point is the 30 year old at AC leaves for Frontier on an H1B, but then gets sent packing cause they don’t qualify for the EB2. Lawyers I’ve spoken with are processing NIW’s for Aussies who are actively in the States on E3’’s, because in the end the E3 is useless and it’s the EB2, the green card, which is what you need.

Atlas was hiring E3’s, but also processing EB2’s for people which takes 18 months give or take, so I don’t believe Frontier is doing that if start times are only months away. Even the regionals like Breeze were offering EB2’s. There is a faster processing time for the EB2 petition but not for the appointment at the consulate so best case an EB2 still takes a year to process.

The unions are actively blocking anyone on H1B’s or E3’s from flowing through to the legacies. The unions are actively fighting the use of and renewal of E3’s and H1B’s. The don’t mind EB2’s because you are a green card holder, eventually a citizen and are part of the system. E3 and H1B holders are our TFW equivalents. We don’t like them here. How do you think the U.S. guys will feel?

My two cents. I wouldn’t leave a major in Canada to go work in the States on an H1B or any time limited visa. I would leave tomorrow to work on a green card. I’ve applied for the NIW process and I guess this job ad has me a little concerned now. That being said, I’m surprised Frontier is doing it. You WILL NOT see American, Delta or United doing it. Or FedEx or UPS. Those are the ones I would like to work for. A successful EB2 NIW will at least, allow me to apply.

5 grand is nothing. Drop in the bucket. If you really want to work and live in the United States. If 5K makes you hesitant, you’re better off where you are.

All good points. Although E-3 and H1B visas are similar, they are not equivalent. E-3 is only good for 2 years without a labor certification and the H1B is good for a maximum of 6 years with a renewal (Labor Certification done on the front end). The H1B is a dual intent visa and can be used for an intent to immigrate where as the E-3 is not an immigrant visa, and as such you have to intend on returning to Australia. The EB-2 would not be the avenue the airline would sponsor you, it would almost certainly be an EB-3 Skilled Worker, which has lower requirements that most professional pilots would likely qualify for. The EB-2 NIW has higher standards due to the fact that it is issued without employment offers or labor certifications.

It has been my experience that most companies, not just aviation sector, tend to do the H1B to EB-3 route purposefully. If they direct sponsor the EB-3 they can loose the employee 6 months after the change of status is filed (Before the Green Card even arrives). However the H1B marries you to the sponsoring company, so they retain your services for longer. What I have seen is that most companies will sponsor a H1B then sponsor a EB-3 after 2 years on property to reduce attrition and people just seeking a Green Card.

In reality I have found the most difficult part of immigrating to the US was getting here. Getting a Green Card after the initial move was much easier than I anticipated and things tend to fall into place once you start looking around. The most common path to a Green Card appears to be via some sort of visa first, then an Application for a Change of Status. If Frontier or any other airline is sponsoring an H1B I can't imagine they will not follow through with the EB-3 application after x years to keep their newly minted Captain. But most of this requires an amount of risk which you appropriately pointed out. It's not for the faint of heart. It worked out fine for me, and I'm glad I left.

[BE02 Driver]

Let's hear some success stories guys when they start to roll in.

Discussing rather than withholding is how we benefit our winged brethren. If you are successful then what does it hurt to share your success AND assist others in succeeding?

The pathetic situation at Air Canada is what happens when people think solely for themselves and completely abandon the crew resource concept. Toxic management has managed to divide and conquer that flight group like nobody's business. I had a Bahamian describe that situation as 'Black Crab Syndrome', keep people from succeeding and in the bucket so they all die from the same fate.

I'm a little behind but catching up here, hoping to have something to look forward to when the course is all done.

First Data Point:
I moved to the US in 2021, currently have EB3 visa (Green Card). Flying for a Major Airline.

You can read my previous post as a possible path. However there are many paths to the US, each person has to find one that works for them and their personal circumstances. Each has it's own pro's and con's, none are cheap, and non are particularly easy. But it is achievable with some grit and a good dose of faith.

[schnitzel2k3]

Let's hear some success stories guys when they start to roll in.

Discussing rather than withholding is how we benefit our winged brethren. If you are successful then what does it hurt to share your success AND assist others in succeeding?

The pathetic situation at Air Canada is what happens when people think solely for themselves and completely abandon the crew resource concept. Toxic management has managed to divide and conquer that flight group like nobody's business. I had a Bahamian describe that situation as 'Black Crab Syndrome', keep people from succeeding and in the bucket so they all die from the same fate.

I'm a little behind but catching up here, hoping to have something to look forward to when the course is all done.

First Data Point:
I moved to the US in 2021, currently have EB3 visa (Green Card). Flying for a Major Airline.

You can read my previous post as a possible path. However there are many paths to the US, each person has to find one that works for them and their personal circumstances. Each has it's own pro's and con's, none are cheap, and non are particularly easy. But it is achievable with some grit and a good dose of faith.

Thank you for sharing BE02 .

[negative_g]

Frontier could have already gotten their PERM Labour Certification. Express I140 processing is now 15 days if you pay an extra $1000ish. Small beans for a company. Then if you are from a country that has no waitlist for adjustment of status (notice how it's only Canada, Mexico, Chile and Singapore? all countries with no wait list) you can get an EB3 approved very quickly. I wonder if this is what they are doing. As BE02 Driver states, the EB3 visa is a lot easier to get.

The EB-3 is an employment-based immigrant visa that is on the third preference level. Because of this, the requirements are not as stringent as they are for the second and first preference levels. There is no need to get a master’s degree, prove exceptional abilities or achievements, or become an executive in a company. In order to be considered eligible for an EB-3, you simply need to qualify for one of the following three categories:

-A foreign professional with a bachelor’s degree. You must be able to prove that your occupation requires your particular degree.
-A skilled worker with at least two years of experience performing the tasks of your job.
-An unskilled worker. This category has differing priority dates and requires your job to be permanent and not seasonal or temporary. You do not need work experience for this category, and so almost anyone who acquires a permanent job in the U.S. can obtain an EB-3 green card.

[Ash Ketchum]

Can the EB-3 visa be granted without a job offer from a US company?

[negative_g]

Can the EB-3 visa be granted without a job offer from a US company?

No you must have a job offer, and the company must go through the PERM process.

The only EB based visa/green card that doesn't need a job offer that would apply to pilots is the EB2-NIW.

[Ash Ketchum]

Can the EB-3 visa be granted without a job offer from a US company?

No you must have a job offer, and the company must go through the PERM process.

Interesting, does anyone have a list of US companies who would be willing to do that? I have cold called/emailed a bunch of US airlines without success so I thought I would have to settle for the EB-2 NIW which is hard and expensive to be granted as a pilot.

[negative_g]

The best options are likely corporate 135 jobs.

You could also just go get your ATP and then apply for this job at Frontier as your foot in the door. Unless you're an astronaut, 10+ years of experience, ex-mil, 10,000 hours, 705 command time etc I doubt an NIW will be approved.

[North Shore]

Charter 6 rights apply to interprovincial travel for living and work. As to leaving or returning to Canada, it is only that. Working outside of Canada does not involve any charter rights, only the right to return to the country.

What I've heard (Again... only heard) is that there is already a pushback being planned on the Canadian side. By whom? Not sure, but my guess is ATAC, in turn lobbying the Canadian Ministry of Labour, and/or Transport.

Interesting...I think that it would have to be done on the quiet, otherwise, don't 'they' open themselves up to a Charter challenge on Freedom of Movement (section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights)?

Section 6: 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada. IANAL, but that seems pretty cut-and-dried, no? Or am I reading too much into it, thinking that the Government has no right to interfere with your mobility?
JBI, you around on this thread?

[JHR]

EB2 NIW approvals have been flowing in for foreign pilots. The lawyer I was dealing with only had one rejected however he will only take candidates that have a good chance of succeeding. No astronauts as far as I know

[Ash Ketchum]

The best options are likely corporate 135 jobs.

You could also just go get your ATP and then apply for this job at Frontier as your foot in the door. Unless you're an astronaut, 10+ years of experience, ex-mil, 10,000 hours, 705 command time etc I doubt an NIW will be approved.

It's funny how some law firms say that mostly all pilots can easily get the NIW and others say no chance. The cost I have been quoted for the NIW 2 step process (I-140 and then, if approved, DS-260 for all family members) with filing fees is close to $20,000 CAD so it is a huge risk to take with no guarantees.

[BE02 Driver]

Charter 6 rights apply to interprovincial travel for living and work. As to leaving or returning to Canada, it is only that. Working outside of Canada does not involve any charter rights, only the right to return to the country.

Interesting...I think that it would have to be done on the quiet, otherwise, don't 'they' open themselves up to a Charter challenge on Freedom of Movement (section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights)?

Section 6: 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada. IANAL, but that seems pretty cut-and-dried, no? Or am I reading too much into it, thinking that the Government has no right to interfere with your mobility?
JBI, you around on this thread?

We are at the point where the Charter can be considered Parchment Rights. Just words on paper that really mean nothing. The Constitution has effectively crumbled that use to give those Rights written on paper some meaning. Antonin Scalia warned about this very thing in a great speech.

[BE02 Driver]

The best options are likely corporate 135 jobs.

You could also just go get your ATP and then apply for this job at Frontier as your foot in the door. Unless you're an astronaut, 10+ years of experience, ex-mil, 10,000 hours, 705 command time etc I doubt an NIW will be approved.

It's funny how some law firms say that mostly all pilots can easily get the NIW and others say no chance. The cost I have been quoted for the NIW 2 step process (I-140 and then, if approved, DS-260 for all family members) with filing fees is close to $20,000 CAD so it is a huge risk to take with no guarantees.

I know a few pilots that have been successful with pretty run of the mill resumes. USCIS has been aggressive at handing out reclaimed Green Cards. They even posted a Notice on the MYUSCIS website asking all eligible people and companies to apply so they can fill the reclaimed Green Cards. They have even been issuing without interviews.

[BE02 Driver]

Can the EB-3 visa be granted without a job offer from a US company?

Negative G is correct. The only caveat.... Most places won't direct sponsor for EB-3. An employee can leave 6 months after filing even if the Green Card hasn't been issued. So it's too risky for most companies. Most will transition from a immigrant work visa (H1B or similar) to a EB-3 after a requisite amount of time. 2 years seems to be the norm.

It's also possible to transition from a non-immigrant work visa (TN, E-3, etc) but it requires that you had no intent to immigrate when you received the original visa and a minimum 90 days in the US before you form the intent to immigrate.

Other avenues that are overlooked are your spouse's credentials. They may have a high demand skill set and/or degree and can get their own visa. In which case they can go through the process and you will receive a Green Card with them.

[planesorwtv]

Does anyone know what type of Visa this is?

The only issue or biggest risk is the type of visa - If your visa is conditional on a specific employer hiring you and not a full green card you'd be stuck with them for 5 years until you can apply for citizenship or a full green card.

This issue of being tied to the employer is not that big of a deal because you're still way better off, but if ever they cancel your visa you're in trouble.

During Covid I know if 3 of my non pilot acquantancese who were laid off and then had their Visas canceled. They could not legally find another job in the US as their visa was conditional on them working for the employer. This is generally more of an issue for non-union people because the employer can just abuse you and if you quit you have to leave the country.


Can anyone confirm what type of Visa they are offering? Is it a green card?

I'm doing the conversion course next week, Canada just absolutely sucks.

[negative_g]

Anyone else here hear back from Brookfield or even potentially Frontier yet?