ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:48 am ACPA is borderline inbred, with a significant cause for concern regarding conflicts of interest and the inability for the union to act altruistically towards it's membership.

ALPA provides an opportunity to negotiate and represent independently of the AC managerial pressures and carrot dangling. I think it's 100% in the AC pilots groups interest to remove ACPA prior to the next contract. Hell it's in the interest of the rest of the industry at this point.

Make something happen yesterday.
There's a lot of support for ALPA, but how do we get started?
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rudder
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by rudder »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:38 am
There's a lot of support for ALPA, but how do we get started?
Previously posted. 2 ways for the AC pilots to migrate to ALPA representation:

1. Merge ACPA in to ALPA.

Requires explicit consent from ACPA. There was a previous agreement so the methodology is already demonstrated. It would require both initiative and support from a majority of the elected reps at ACPA with the ability to exercise representative authority. Logically, a merger agreement should have the expressed support (ballot) from the membership.

2. Open period petition

The Federal Labour Code allows union members to petition for a change in bargaining agent during the ‘open period’ of their CBA (90 days prior to expiry). Current expiry 30 Sept 2024. The AC pilots - of their own individual volition - could sign ALPA membership cards. With sufficient subscription (at least 50%+1 of eligible pilots) ALPA could submit a petition to the CIRB for the bargaining rights of the AC pilots. With a stronger subscription rate (say 60%+) the CIRB might grant such petition forthwith. Alternatively, the CIRB could order a representation vote.
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Last edited by rudder on Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

rudder wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:02 am
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:38 am
There's a lot of support for ALPA, but how do we get started?
Previously posted. 2 ways for the AC pilots to migrate to ALPA representation:

1. Merge ACPA in to ALPA.

Requires explicit consent from ACPA. There was a previous agreement so the methodology is transparent. It would require both initiative and support from a majority of the elected reps at ACPA who could therefore exercise representative authority. Logically, a merger agreement should have the demonstrated support (ballot) from the membership.

2. Open period petition

The Federal Labour Code allows union members to petition for a change in bargaining agent during the ‘open period’ of their CBA (90 days prior to expiry). Current expiry 30 Sept 2024. The AC pilots - of their own individual volition - could sign ALPA membership cards. With sufficient subscription (at least 50%+1 of eligible pilots) ALPA could submit a petition to the CIRB for the bargaining rights of the AC pilots. With a stronger subscription rate (say 60%+) the CIRB might grant such petition forthwith. Alternatively, the CIRB could order a representation vote.
What he said.
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negative_g
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by negative_g »

rudder wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:02 am
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:38 am
There's a lot of support for ALPA, but how do we get started?
Previously posted. 2 ways for the AC pilots to migrate to ALPA representation:

1. Merge ACPA in to ALPA.

Requires explicit consent from ACPA. There was a previous agreement so the methodology is already demonstrated. It would require both initiative and support from a majority of the elected reps at ACPA with the ability to exercise representative authority. Logically, a merger agreement should have the expressed support (ballot) from the membership.

2. Open period petition

The Federal Labour Code allows union members to petition for a change in bargaining agent during the ‘open period’ of their CBA (90 days prior to expiry). Current expiry 30 Sept 2024. The AC pilots - of their own individual volition - could sign ALPA membership cards. With sufficient subscription (at least 50%+1 of eligible pilots) ALPA could submit a petition to the CIRB for the bargaining rights of the AC pilots. With a stronger subscription rate (say 60%+) the CIRB might grant such petition forthwith. Alternatively, the CIRB could order a representation vote.
This is mostly correct, but contrary to what most people think we aren't actually in a 10 year contract. It's a 10 year "framework" made up of 4 consecutive contracts (3/3/3/1). The Canada Labour Code requires collective agreements to be no longer than 3 years at a maximum. We are currently in the 3rd subsequent collective agreement within the 10 year framework. This one ends in 2023 at which point we would be open for a card drive. We do not have to wait until 2024.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Fidget »

I would want iron clad guarantees that our money stays on this side of the border. Strike fund refund.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by flyingfool »

Fidget wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:53 pm I would want iron clad guarantees that our money stays on this side of the border. Strike fund refund.
How much of our salaries went to management bonuses during the ACPA sold cargo "deal"?
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Fanblade »

Fidget wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:53 pm I would want iron clad guarantees that our money stays on this side of the border. Strike fund refund.
I agree with you about the strike fund. Well except let's be real. It isn't a strike fund. It's a fund that we pretend we might use for something. Maybe. One day. Powder still dry

But the rest of your statement makes no sense to me. Let's say you need a plumber. The one from Detroit is considered the best. The one in Windsor is not as skilled.

Your going to pick the less skilled plumber?

They are service providers. Why do you care who is providing the service other that they are the best for the job?
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teacher
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by teacher »

Just gonna leave this here….

ALPA wins recent pilot pay gains at US regional airlines

By Howard Hardee (Chico, California) 29 August 2022

A handful of US regional airlines recently hiked pilot pay rates amid an industry-wide effort to attract and retain pilots and keep pace with surging travel demand.

Thousands of pilots at Mesa Airlines, CommutAir, Piedmont Airlines, PSA Airlines and Envoy Air – all represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) – have secured new contracts with higher wages, ALPA recently said in a series of statements.

The pay hikes vary by airline. Mesa pilots will receive a boost of 118% for first-year captains and 172% for new first officers, with wages now starting at $150 per hour and $100 per hour, respectively. Meanwhile, first officers with CommutAir will now start at $72 per hour, with captains at $100 hourly, says ALPA.

The agreements also include improved benefit packages and pilot-scheduling stipulations, increased sign-on and retention bonuses and better commuter compensation, says ALPA. Most of the contracts extend until July 2029.

“For years, regional airlines have tried to skimp and save on the most important safety feature on any flight: experienced, well-trained and rested pilots on the flight deck,” ALPA president Joe DePete said in a recent statement. He notes the new deals “are an acknowledgement that this approach of shortchanging frontline workers is not working and that airlines must offer competitive compensation packages and work rules to attract and retain pilots.”

ALPA and the Regional Airline Association (RAA) are at odds regarding the pilot shortage, with ALPA maintaining that there are enough pilots to meet demand amid the industry’s ongoing recovery from the coronavirus pandemic, pointing to a recent uptick in the number of licensed pilots. Earlier this month, ALPA released figures showing some 8,800 pilots received air transport licenses in the past year.

“There are more than enough qualified pilots available to fly for the right opportunity,” DePete said in August. ALPA has said incompetent management and non-competitive wages – not a shortage of pilots – are to blame for recent operational upheavals.

The RAA counters that the statistics cited by ALPA are misleading and that the increase in licensed pilots follows a significant downturn due to the coronavirus pandemic. The shortage remains significant, the group says – especially as major carriers draw pilots away from regional airlines.

“CEOs of nearly every major and regional airline have acknowledged the pilot shortage is grounding aircraft and forcing service cuts to smaller communities,” the RAA said in an 11 August statement refuting ALPA’s position.

The wage increase at some regional carriers comes ahead of the 2022 RAA Leaders Conference, set for 20-21 September, during which the pilot shortage will be a major topic of discussion.

https://www.flightglobal.com/alpa-wins- ... 06.article
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by rudder »

The most relevant quote - …. He notes the new deals “are an acknowledgement that this approach of shortchanging frontline workers is not working and that airlines must offer competitive compensation packages and work rules to attract and retain pilots.”

Hasn’t quite manifested yet in Canada (with one notable exception). Likely will manifest at the Regional level here first as demand outstrips supply for pilots. Inability to meet schedule will become a primary motivator for some carriers to increase compensation. Rapid upgrade is a teaser and the thrill wears off quickly if the T4 or WAWCON are not competitive.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

rudder wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:37 am The most relevant quote - …. He notes the new deals “are an acknowledgement that this approach of shortchanging frontline workers is not working and that airlines must offer competitive compensation packages and work rules to attract and retain pilots.”

Hasn’t quite manifested yet in Canada (with one notable exception). Likely will manifest at the Regional level here first as demand outstrips supply for pilots. Inability to meet schedule will become a primary motivator for some carriers to increase compensation. Rapid upgrade is a teaser and the thrill wears off quickly if the T4 or WAWCON are not competitive.
Air Canada regulates the industry by setting a starter pay cap for fairly experienced aviators. If what is regarded as the "NHL" of airlines and Canada's only true legacy carrier, pays experienced aviators from all backgrounds those wages for not just 1 year, but first 4 years across the fleet, then they are able to competitively control the narrative on wage growth in Canada.

It unfortunately starts with ACPA/ALPA and the AC pilot group to lift themselves out of starting pay poverty before anything will truly change.

At that point Jazz will have room to grow rates under the AC payscale, seeing as they are AC's only feeder. Westjet will likely raise upon hearing of AC's payscale change and then it will trickle through the industry.

Unlike the U.S, it's not going to start at the regionals, BECAUSE the Canadian regionals can hire all the way down to fresh CPL unlike in the U.S which requires 1500 hour minimum (2-3 years-ish of industry experience).
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rudder
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by rudder »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:19 am
Unlike the U.S, it's not going to start at the regionals, BECAUSE the Canadian regionals can hire all the way down to fresh CPL unlike in the U.S which requires 1500 hour minimum (2-3 years-ish of industry experience).
I still think that supply/demand will be the principal factor for improved pay scales at the regional level.

Yes, CPL (IATRA complete) can fill the right seat at 705 operations. But what we are seeing in many cases in 2022 is the requirement for rapid upgrade or DEC hires. This means ATPL qualification and enough experience to qualify. Actually, these criteria are also manifesting at the ULCC carriers as well.

AC is in its own unique universe. Over a career (after several years/decades) it is the highest paying 705 job in Canada. This allows it to defy the laws of economics for labour supply as no other opportunity exists for the T4 that AC can (ultimately) provide. Therefore change in pay scale (entry) at AC will likely be driven by internal forces rather than market forces.

The AC pilots will have to set their own bargaining agenda and determine bargaining priorities. The good news is if they are forced in to a ‘benchmarking’ exercise, the year 1-4 FO/RP pay represents the low water mark in Canada for carriers operating large aircraft. Even an arbitrator cannot validate that.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by teacher »

The big take away I got from this article aside from the big pay bump AND the obvious market force differences is the fact that ALPA’s interests lie in the pilot groups. They represent the pilots for the pilots. ACPA’s priorities in my opinion (and in the opinion of a growing many others) have been self preservation and self enrichment. When business is improving and industry wages are increasing ACPA talks concessions. When there’s money to be made ACPA talks about giving it back. Even when we make “gains” it always comes at a price somewhere else which is often not obvious at first and discovered after the fact and after the vote.

It’s time for a serious change and that time is now.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

Just because your union is ALPA doesn’t make it any better. The MEC and executive council are the most important thing. Jazz for example is ALPA, yet has a contract and benefits heavily favouring senior pilots.
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Dry Guy
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Dry Guy »

Who do I vote for in the current by-election that is most likely to steer us towards an ALPA card drive?
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negative_g
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by negative_g »

Dry Guy wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:40 am Who do I vote for in the current by-election that is most likely to steer us towards an ALPA card drive?
Andre.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Transition9er2 »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 am Just because your union is ALPA doesn’t make it any better. The MEC and executive council are the most important thing. Jazz for example is ALPA, yet has a contract and benefits heavily favouring senior pilots.

You’re absolutely correct, the contract is sh!t at Jazz.

You’ve got an ALPA union of a regional carrier competing against both ACPA and AC management. 2 against 1 will lose every time.

Post Covid we can compare the track records of each union, ALPA vs. ACPA.

ALPA appears to firing on all cylinders down south with almost all pilot groups getting SIGNIFICANT salary and lifestyle improvements. There’s a great deal of experience here we can utilize for our own contract by signing ALPA.

ACPA got us a cherry cargo deal and a YVR rep that chooses to stay on after 68% of his base tried to fire him. :rolleyes:

I know how I’m voting! Voting to get rid of the current dumpster fire that is ACPA.
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rudder
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by rudder »

Dry Guy wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:40 am Who do I vote for in the current by-election that is most likely to steer us towards an ALPA card drive?
Actually, you don’t need an elected rep to advance a card drive. But it doesn’t hurt.

However, choosing elected reps that want to conduct a serious and objective evaluation of an ACPA/ALPA merger would likely be beneficial if you are leaning that way.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by GeoffPilot »

rudder wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:17 pm
Dry Guy wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:40 am Who do I vote for in the current by-election that is most likely to steer us towards an ALPA card drive?
Actually, you don’t need an elected rep to advance a card drive. But it doesn’t hurt.

However, choosing elected reps that want to conduct a serious and objective evaluation of an ACPA/ALPA merger would likely be beneficial if you are leaning that way.
Thanks for that. From my short experience of ACPA, I've seen enough
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Dry Guy »

negative_g wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:51 am
Dry Guy wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:40 am Who do I vote for in the current by-election that is most likely to steer us towards an ALPA card drive?
Andre.
Done. Thanks.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Chateau »

Bonne Chance Andre!!
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by RippleRock »

Very curious to see the results of the new NMEC position vote. The writing will be on the wall like never seen before.

Time to get out of the way, as the days of "zero sum" bargaining are ending. Time to actually make ground, instead of losing it, or trading it for peanuts or worst of all the gift that keeps on giving...."goodwill". Never an -ounce of goodwill- have we been re-paid.

Little late for me, but high time. Good on the junior Membership for righting the course. We seniors have consistently failed you on an epic scale. I apologize on my, and their behalf.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Transition9er2 »

RippleRock wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:41 pm Very curious to see the results of the new NMEC position vote. The writing will be on the wall like never seen before.

Time to get out of the way, as the days of "zero sum" bargaining are ending. Time to actually make ground, instead of losing it, or trading it for peanuts or worst of all the gift that keeps on giving...."goodwill". Never an -ounce of goodwill- have we been re-paid.

Little late for me, but high time. Good on the junior Membership for righting the course. We seniors have consistently failed you on an epic scale. I apologize on my, and their behalf.
Votes still need to be counted, nothing has been decided quiet yet.

Is it possible to track the voter turnout once you’ve submitted your vote? I can’t find the breakdown anymore now that I’ve voted and my link is closed.

Hoping we see a fairly large turnout.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Ratherbe »

It’s at 31% this morning.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by alkaseltzer »

Transition9er2 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:33 pm
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 am Just because your union is ALPA doesn’t make it any better. The MEC and executive council are the most important thing. Jazz for example is ALPA, yet has a contract and benefits heavily favouring senior pilots.

You’re absolutely correct, the contract is sh!t at Jazz.

You’ve got an ALPA union of a regional carrier competing against both ACPA and AC management. 2 against 1 will lose every time.

Post Covid we can compare the track records of each union, ALPA vs. ACPA.

ALPA appears to firing on all cylinders down south with almost all pilot groups getting SIGNIFICANT salary and lifestyle improvements. There’s a great deal of experience here we can utilize for our own contract by signing ALPA.

ACPA got us a cherry cargo deal and a YVR rep that chooses to stay on after 68% of his base tried to fire him. :rolleyes:

I know how I’m voting! Voting to get rid of the current dumpster fire that is ACPA.
I call utter BS on all of your paragraphs.
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Re: ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

Post by Fanblade »

alkaseltzer wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:20 pm
Transition9er2 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:33 pm
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 am Just because your union is ALPA doesn’t make it any better. The MEC and executive council are the most important thing. Jazz for example is ALPA, yet has a contract and benefits heavily favouring senior pilots.

You’re absolutely correct, the contract is sh!t at Jazz.

You’ve got an ALPA union of a regional carrier competing against both ACPA and AC management. 2 against 1 will lose every time.

Post Covid we can compare the track records of each union, ALPA vs. ACPA.

ALPA appears to firing on all cylinders down south with almost all pilot groups getting SIGNIFICANT salary and lifestyle improvements. There’s a great deal of experience here we can utilize for our own contract by signing ALPA.

ACPA got us a cherry cargo deal and a YVR rep that chooses to stay on after 68% of his base tried to fire him. :rolleyes:

I know how I’m voting! Voting to get rid of the current dumpster fire that is ACPA.
I call utter BS on all of your paragraphs.
If you find your current antacid is not doing the trick in these trying times may I suggest Nexium 24H. I had the same problem when the cargo deal came out.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

Albert Einstein.

Insanity is repeatedly taking pay cuts and expecting a bigger pay check.

Fanblade 2022
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