Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

[pelmet]

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.

The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.

[DickandBalls]

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.

The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.

You mean “a” solution?
Another is to not land in the 3 point attitude. 4300 ft runway. Just fly it on
Another is to add a touch of power to regain directional control and use the rest of the 1.3 km paved runway to roll out.

[T-bag]

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.

The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.

You mean “a” solution.
One solution is not to 3 point land a tail dragger. I’ve never really understood why some pilots insist on trying to 3 point a landing. Maybe in a Short Field Landing competition. When I was cropdusting I’d wheel it on the grass and then come back on the tarmac. That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life. Ever see a DC3 3 point a landing

Another solution in this case may have been to add a touch of power to regain directional control then continue down the 1.3 km long runway.

[pelmet]

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.

The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.

You mean “a” solution.
One solution is not to 3 point land a tail dragger. I’ve never really understood why some pilots insist on trying to 3 point a landing. Maybe in a Short Field Landing competition. When I was cropdusting I’d wheel it on the grass and then come back on the tarmac. That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life. Ever see a DC3 3 point a landing

Another solution in this case may have been to add a touch of power to regain directional control then continue down the 1.3 km long runway.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting comments that sound like they come from someone with plenty of experience. It is difficult to know the exact circumstances. The report does talk of rollout more than touch down but that could be generalized.

So it could be more of a control issue that happened after a successful touchdown but perhaps not. Your touch of power solution is definitely valid but I would recommend it only for a reasonably experienced tail wheel pilot in a situation that is not near out of control. Otherwise, full power and get out of there.

Three pointer landings seem to vary by type and surface and for me. I personally saved the three pointers for grass on many taildragger types like the c180 that seemed to bounce around on me on pavement. But the C170 and Citabria types do nice three pointers on pavement. Three point on grass leaves the aircraft in a less vulnerable state for a nose over if soft ground is encountered on the rollout.

On the other hand, three pointers are a full stall landing and sometimes, one misjudges and drops it onto the pavement firmly. Therefore, when in an aircraft which may not have as robust a tail wheel area, I avoid three pointers on pavement to reduce the likelihood of larger impact forces. This could be an older aircraft with wood construction, perhaps an ultralight(although I don’t fly them), or an aircraft with an issue(such as tail wheel shimmy).

[PilotDAR]

That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life.

And tailwheel mechanisms! My preference is to always wheel land, unless specific type instruction is contrary (not yet).

When, during training I just threepointed the DC-3T, I felt my instructor's hand calmly, but firmly pushing my hand and the power levers forward. Before he said so, I thought to myself: "I guess we're going around...". He very calmly said: "We don't threepoint DC-3's". and it was memorable. No drama, no problem, just good instruction.

If, when I touchdown in my taildragger, I feel the tailwheel lightly touch, I'll still lift it back off the surface with some forward stick, and hold it off until it touches down naturally itself with full forward sick at slow speed.

This has also come up in discussions I've had with respect to ski flying. Again, I prefer to wheel (ski?) land the plane. Slightly different reason, I like to "feel" the snow surface, while I still have the option to go around if I don't like what I feel. More to the point I was later advised, that there is the potential (at least with PA-18 similar types) to damage the tailpost if you put the tail ski through a crust at speed during a three point landing.

As for the recent accident discussed:

The oscillations became progressively worse

During wheel landings, pitch oscillations are unlikely, and very controllable should they start.

[pelmet]

C-FKKV, an Air Tractor AT-402B operated by Western Canadian Aerial, was conducting aerial
applications flights from Neepawa (CJV5), MB to Whitewood (CKY2), SK. During the landing roll
on Runway 09 in CKY2, the pilot inadvertently unlocked the tailwheel. The aircraft's tailwheel
started to shimmy and the pilot then applied braking. The left-hand tire blew and, subsequently, the
pilot lost directional control and the aircraft exited the left side of the runway. The aircraft sustained
minor damage and there was no injuries to the pilot.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-GDJU, a privately registered, amateur built Murphy Rebel airplane, was conducting a local flight
under visual flight rules for the purpose of flying circuits at Vernon Airport (CYVK), BC, with only
the pilot on board. At 1155 Pacific Daylight Time, the aircraft took-off from Runway 23 and
conducted one left-hand circuit. The tail wheel equipped aircraft was landed in a 3-point attitude
and touched down approximately 116 feet prior to the displaced threshold of Runway 23. A 15 knot
crosswind, indicated by an airport wind sock at the time of landing, was reported. The maximum
demonstrated crosswind component for the aircraft is 14 knots. The aircraft traveled approximately
700 feet from the point of touch-down, along the runway center line, slowing to a speed of
approximately 45 knots before it began to veer left. Right rudder was applied but the aircraft
departed the left side of the runway. After departing the paved surface of the runway, the left main
landing gear collapsed, resulting in the left wingtip and the propeller striking the ground. The
aircraft came to rest approximately 1000 feet from the threshold of Runway 23, and approximately
100 feet to the left of the runway centerline. There were no injuries. The aircraft was substantially
damaged. Emergency services attended the scene.

[pelmet]

From TSB....

C-FUSE, a privately registered Piper PA-18 aircraft, was conducting touch-and-go at
Saskatoon/Richter Field (CRF5), SK. On the third touchdown, the pilot lost control and the aircraft
ground looped. The pilot sustained minor injuries. The aircraft was substantially damaged. It was
reported that gusty crosswind conditions existed at the time of the occurrence.

[AntiNakedMan]

From TSB....

C-FUSE, a privately registered Piper PA-18 aircraft, was conducting touch-and-go at
Saskatoon/Richter Field (CRF5), SK. On the third touchdown, the pilot lost control and the aircraft
ground looped. The pilot sustained minor injuries. The aircraft was substantially damaged. It was
reported that gusty crosswind conditions existed at the time of the occurrence.

Where on the TSB website do you find this information? I became curious upon stumbling on this thread, so wanted to see if I could find this incident so I could look at others, but cannot fine it.

Thanks!
Anti

[TailwheelPilot]

They are not on their website, but in daily emails.

https://forms-formulaires.alpha.canada.ca/id/2

Select the Air (Daily) option at the bottom in the Notifications section. Kind of a weird way to sign up for them, but it works.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-FTWN a privately registered Cessna 180H aircraft, was conducting a flight from Stoney Rapids
(CYSF), SK to Lynx Lake, NWT, a private tundra strip located in NWT. Shortly after touchdown the
aircraft wheels rolled over rough terrain on the strip causing the aircraft to bounce. The pilot
attempted to correct the landing, due to a 90-degree crosswind, the aircraft drifted to the sideways
striking a barrel placed on the side of the runway. The aircraft left landing gear made contact with
the barrel causing the left gear to collapse and left-wing tip and propellor to strike the ground. The
aircraft sustained substantial damage. The pilot exited the aircraft without injury.

[pelmet]

Sounds like he knew he had an issue. I wonder if that was prior to departure.

From TSB.......


C-FOFV, a privately registered Cessna 180E, was conducting a ferry flight from Quesnel Airport
(CYQZ), BC, to Calgary/Springbank Airport (CYBW), AB, with only the pilot onboard. The right
wheel was out of alignment after a change from floats to tundra tires. The pilot inquired about the
availability of a grass strip, and was informed by the tower that there is no designated grass strip at
CYBW. The pilot did not declare an emergency and subsequently landed on Runway 35. During
the landing roll, the pilot lost control of the aircraft and the aircraft flipped over on the runway. The
pilot was uninjured and egressed from the overturned airplane. The aircraft sustained substantial
damage.

[pelmet]

C-FKAC, a Found Aircraft Canada Inc. FBA-2C1 operated by Bamaji Air Inc., was conducting a
VFR flight from Sioux Lookout Airport (CYXL), ON to Slate Falls Airport (CKD9), ON. On
touchdown at CKD9, C-FKAC ground looped and swerved to the right; coming to a rest
approximately 6 feet from the runway edge lights. The aircraft's tailwheel was damaged by the hard
snow windrow at the edge of the runway. The aircraft was removed from the runway and was
subsequently repaired.

...from TSB.

[pelmet]

From TSB....

C-GTSY, an amateur-built Just Aircraft Highlander, was conducting a local flight from a private
grass airstrip approximately 4 nautical miles east-southeast of Langley Regional Airport (CYNJ),
BC, with only the pilot onboard. While landing with a slight tailwind, aircraft nosed over after brakes
were applied during the landing roll. The aircraft came to a rest inverted. The emergency locator
transmitter activated and a signal was received by the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre. The pilot
exited the aircraft and was not injured. The aircraft was substantially damaged.

Gotta be careful with brakes on a taildragger. Some taildraggers are more likely to nose over than others. One type I flew had different model numbers with one model type much more likely to nose over. Then again, the easy to nose over model was build without be=rakes and people modify them and nose them over. Another type has a lot of people modify it with a higher horsepower engine. Now it is easier to nose over. Then there are the brakes themselves. Not so effective brake are generally preferential(in my opinion) as compared to grabby brakes. Some people install a different type of brakes and then nose over when applying brakes on landing. Actually, I have heard stories of them nosing them over when taxiing as well. Got going fast then suddenly wanted to stop quickly. Of course, there are type that will never nose over based on the design.

Best to figure out where your taildragger fits in all this and to remember that a different aircraft of the same type might be more likely to nose over based on one or more of several factors. If you have discovered that it is a more likely one to nose over, take that into consideration for operations. This aircraft landed with a tailwind. I wonder if the strip was short. One might want to be more likely to go around on certain landing strips if their aircraft is susceptible to nosing over with significant brake application.

[pelmet]

From TSB....

C-FSEZ, a privately registered, amateur built, Murphy Moose was taxiing to depart Delta Heritage
Air Park (CAK3), BC, on a local visual flight rules flight with the pilot and 1 passenger on board.
During the taxi on the grass maneuver area, the aircraft nosed over with the left wing striking the
turf and came to rest inverted. There were no injuries to either occupant. The aircraft sustained
substantial damage including the left wing tip, right wing strut, empennage, and propeller.
The aircraft will be inspected to determine the extent of the damage.

One has to be taxiing quite fast for the conditions to become inverted.

[PilotDAR]

One has to be taxiing quite fast for the conditions to become inverted.

My thought precisely!

[pelmet]

C-GYIX, a privately registered Cessna A185F departed Pitt Meadows Airport (CYPK), BC, on a
local flight under visual flight rules with only the pilot on board. During the landing roll on Runway
18, the aircraft encountered a strong gust of wind which caused an uncommanded change of
direction. The aircraft exited the left side of the runway and came to a stop on the grass. The
aircraft then taxied across the grass and onto Taxiway Delta. There were no reported injuries and
no damage to the aircraft.


From TSB

[pelmet]

C-FAWH, a privately registered Cessna 120 was conducting circuits on Runway 25 at the Grande
Prairie Airport (CYQU), AB. During one of the landings the pilot elected to land in the grass north of
the runway. The aircraft touched down on the snow-covered grass and subsequently nosed over
onto its roof. The two occupants were able to exit the aircraft. The aircraft was substantially
damaged.
Maintenance Update: Aircraft was lifted back onto the wheels and removed from site to hangar
where damage is being assessed.

From TSB.

Personally, even in the summer, I prefer to examine a non-paved landing area for a taildragger prior to using it. Winter ops seems more risky. If unable, perhaps a report from others who have used the landing surface recently. Not a bad idea for tricycle gear aircraft as well.

[PilotDAR]

If in doubt about the surface, wheel land, and run just one mainwheel along the the surface to get an idea first. Wit ha wheel landing, you haven't committed to stop flying yet, with a three point you're just a bit further back from going around if the surface does not feel right...

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-FMLV, a Northern Air Spray Ltd. Thrush S2R-T34, was conducting a training flight at the Peace
River Aerodrome (CYPE), AB. Upon landing on Runway 04, directional control was lost during the
landing roll. The aircraft went off the right side, struck a runway light and damaged one propeller
blade. There were no injuries. The aircraft was moved to the company's hangar.

[pelmet]

From TSB....

N241MA, a privately registered Aviat A-1C-180 (Husky) was operating on a cross-country flight
from Teslin Aerodrome (CYZW), YT, to Watson Lake Airport (CYQH), YT. Immediately after
touchdown in CYQH, the aircraft encountered a gust of wind and began to deviate from the runway
track. The right-wing tip contacted the surface of the runway, and the aircraft entered a ground
loop. The right main landing collapsed and the propeller contacted the ground. The aircraft came to
a rest on the runway. The pilot and passenger were uninjured and egressed from the aircraft.
The aircraft was removed from the runway and brought to the tie down area of CYQH.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-GRSX, a privately registered Cessna 305A (L-19 Bird Dog) was operating on a cross-country
flight from a private airstrip 15 NM E of Peace River, AB, to Red Deer Regional Airport (CYQF),
AB. An en-route stop was planned at Valleyview Aerodrome (CEL5), AB. While touching down on
Runway 25 at CEL5, the aircraft began to drift to the left. The pilot was unable to regain control and
the aircraft departed the left edge of the runway. While the left main landing gear transitioned from
the paved runway surface to the grass, the aircraft began to ground loop. Subsequently the right
main landing gear collapsed, and the right wing contacted the ground and fractured as the aircraft
came to rest. The pilot, who was the sole occupant, was uninjured.

....Be ready to add power and regain control.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-FMKB, a Douglas DC-3T aircraft operated by Kenn Borek Air, departed Resolute Bay (CYRB),
NU, on an IFR flight to a decommissioned airport at Rea Point, NU. While on final approach, the
aircraft deviated from the centreline of the runway by a wind gust. While attempting to regain the
centreline, the aircraft was banked right, then left, which resulted in the left wingtip and outboard
section of the aileron making contact with the runway surface. The crew initiated a missed
approach and returned to CYRB. Upon landing at CYRB, it was discovered that the left wingtip and
outboard section of the left aileron were damaged. The aircraft was removed from service for
repair.

[pelmet]

Variable wind days can present greater risk. Maybe the windsock is showing little wind but a thermal creates a gust. Stay focused, it can be tempting to operate switches or other items on the rollout. I have done it.

From TSB...

C-FPPQ, a privately registered Cessna 170A was on a visual flight rules flight from the Swift
Current Airport (CYYN), SK, to the High River/Foothills Regional Airport (CEN4), AB. On board
was the pilot and 1 passenger. During the landing roll on Runway 25 at CEN4, an unexpected
sudden crosswind from the south was encountered. The aircraft veered left and exited the runway
(approximately 30-45 degrees of the runway heading) onto the grass. As the aircraft slowed, it
veered further left. As this happened, the right landing gear separated from the aircraft causing the
right wing to strike the ground, bending the right wing strut and causing damage to the leading
edge near the right wing cap.

[pelmet]

C-FOXG, a privately registered Luscombe 8C departed Quamichan Lake Aerodrome (Raven Field
(CML2)), BC, on a recreational flight, under visual flight rules, to Vancouver/Boundary Bay Airport
(CZBB), BC, with only the pilot on board. On arrival at CZBB, the pilot was cleared to land on
Runway 07 and approached on a slant final for a crosswind landing. The initial touchdown resulted
in a bounce from which the pilot continued the landing. When the airplane touched down the
second time, it veered and began to ground loop. The brakes were applied to prevent a runway
side excursion and the airplane subsequently nosed over. The aircraft came to rest inverted on the
runway. The pilot secured the airplane and was able to egress without assistance. There were no
injuries. The aircraft was substantially damaged.
The aircraft sustained damage to the propeller, windshield, vertical stabilizer, and the left wing tip.
First responders righted the aircraft and airport operations personnel towed it clear of the runway.
The airplane will be assessed for damage.

From TSB