Airline Upgrades

[wing'd]

Hey all,

Quick question for you guys who are already in 705s

When it comes to upgrades, per example jazz,porter, encore etc..

Are people upgraded based on their exp : Pic / Turbine time

Or is it mostly because of seniority? I keep hearing that upgrades are 2 years for some 1 for some

As an example, I’m a right seater in a 703. ( got all my pic and then some instructing ) is it worth going left on a 703 machine ? Or move straight to airlines and when Atpl hours are done + 2-3 years have an upgrade ? ( if ultimate goal is airlines )


Upgrades seems confusing in the 705 world for someone who isn’t in it


Thank you guys so much!!

[flying4dollars]

Hey all,

Quick question for you guys who are already in 705s

When it comes to upgrades, per example jazz,porter, encore etc..

Are people upgraded based on their exp : Pic / Turbine time

Or is it mostly because of seniority? I keep hearing that upgrades are 2 years for some 1 for some

As an example, I’m a right seater in a 703. ( got all my pic and then some instructing ) is it worth going left on a 703 machine ? Or move straight to airlines and when Atpl hours are done + 2-3 years have an upgrade ? ( if ultimate goal is airlines )


Upgrades seems confusing in the 705 world for someone who isn’t in it


Thank you guys so much!!

AC and WJ are seniority based, everyone else has an upgrade matrix that varies per company. PIC is very important in your growth as a pilot. Not so say it is necessary, but it will make your first 705 turboprop/jet command that much easier if you come in with PIC time and it just generally makes you a better pilot with respect to decision making and critical thinking.

[GooseDriver]

Seniority is King.

PIC can be helpful if you are trying to qualify for a DEC position, but I’d say you are best off going for a 705 jet FO spot asap, learning the operation, then attempt upgrade process when you meet internal requirements.

Since your ultimate goal is Airline,

Make sure you have enough PIC to complete ATPL, then call it a day. You’re far better off joining a 705 now, upgrading in few years, and be middle of the seniority list, compared to waiting at your 703 to go left seat, then joining that same 705 and be bottom of the list.

[goleafsgo]

Jazz is seniority

[wing'd]

Thank you guys so much!

Yes I built all of my pic needed for atpl while instructing, juste need to finish up my TT which I guess I could at a 705

[lownslow]

I don’t know how it is now but a couple years ago it was generally seniority with gates. Don’t have the required MPIC, then you need more time on type (or whatever). Someone Junior to you has the MPIC and upgrades. There are matrices to define these gates but I’ve never seen one posted here. Maybe Morpheus was right that you have to experience it yourself to understand.

[co-joe]

Jazz is seniority

Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position.

[mmm...bacon]

^ One wonders whether that is an apocryphal story or not? Everybody seems to have heard of this person, but I have a hard time thinking that someone would be so confident/arrogant/unaware that they'd actually attempt that...

[co-joe]

I heard it from someone who, if the story is true, would be in the know, so it seemed plausible. He went on to say they pulled the kid in to the office to firmly suggest that this was not how things were done and that he should seriously reconsider his bid.

Perhaps the story is an anecdote they pass around to dissuade people from wasting the training department's time.

I know that most of the rapidly expanding airlines like mine have some sliding scales of experience (matrix)required to even bid for a command. As we move on further into this experience shortage those numbers will come down and training departments will have to change their approaches to the whole process.

[digits_]

Jazz is seniority

Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position.

Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.

[altiplano]

Jazz is seniority

Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position.

Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.

That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.

A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.

[digits_]

Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position.

Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.

That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.

Ok. Are you sure?

The second part of your post seems to have a strong sense that there's more to it....

A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.

If the trainer has the same attitude as described above, then one has to wonder if the candidate got a fair chance.

How many hours did he have in the right seat? What part of the training did he fail?

Most of the black and white, easy to judge stuff (flying accuracy, ground school knowledge, procedure knowledge) is very similar to flying from the right seat. The story implies that he was an FO first and was aiming for a quick upgrade. Going on a limb here, I will assume that the failed on the more 'soft skills' of the upgrade process. CRM or airmanship or decisionmaking skills. Which are much harder to judge.

It's easy to fail pretty much any pilot during training if you really want to. Nobody's perfect.

[jpilot77]

Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.

That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.

Ok. Are you sure?

The second part of your post seems to have a strong sense that there's more to it....

A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.

If the trainer has the same attitude as described above, then one has to wonder if the candidate got a fair chance.

How many hours did he have in the right seat? What part of the training did he fail?

Most of the black and white, easy to judge stuff (flying accuracy, ground school knowledge, procedure knowledge) is very similar to flying from the right seat. The story implies that he was an FO first and was aiming for a quick upgrade. Going on a limb here, I will assume that the failed on the more 'soft skills' of the upgrade process. CRM or airmanship or decisionmaking skills. Which are much harder to judge.

It's easy to fail pretty much any pilot during training if you really want to. Nobody's perfect.

He was a new hire, he had zero 705 experience (and for that matter zero 704 or 703 experience). Basically he was an instructor with an ATPL who bid left seat CRJ captain. A guy I know was in the same PIT course.

[digits_]

Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy!

[altiplano]

Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy!

Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.

[RoAF-Mig21]

...Basically he was an instructor with an ATPL who bid left seat CRJ captain. A guy I know was in the same PIT course...

The ATPL requirements in Canada need to change. On top of what's required now, one MUST HAVE min 500 hrs on a high performance two crew aircraft. At the very least, a Dash 8, ATR, etc. Getting an ATPL flying a 172 is beyond insane. It's in the name for crying out loud "ATPL... Airline..."

Having an ATPL does not mean you'll make it as a captain. They will give you a shot at it when you're eligible (seniority wise), but you'll have to pass the training, including the line indoc. They're not just going to sign you off because you have the min required time. Remember that old saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

[digits_]

Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy!

Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.

Perhaps. He is likely back at his old job making more money

He was probably told in the interview that he could expect a quick upgrade having an ATPL.

Is it stupid that he attempted the course, or is it stupid the company underpays their pilots which allowed this situation to occur?

Also note that ATPL instructor holders are intentionally hired for DEC King air and Metro positions. Something that would have been called equally stupid 5 or 10 years ago. And they operate successfully and safely.

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.

[co-joe]

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.

I agree 100% that they could at least pass the ride with the right training program behind them (which doesn't exist in Canada yet), but there's a lot more to being an airline Captain than passing the ride. I'm sure half the kids straight out of MRU, or Seneca aviation programs that have been training Jazz SOPs for 2 years straight, and doing CRJ sim training, could be coached through the ride. But there's just no way they have the experience to safely keep OTP in a 705 jet, or 360 kt turboprop for that matter.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I agree 100% that they could at least pass the ride with the right training program behind them (which doesn't exist in Canada yet), but there's a lot more to being an airline Captain than passing the ride. I'm sure half the kids straight out of MRU, or Seneca aviation programs that have been training Jazz SOPs for 2 years straight, and doing CRJ sim training, could be coached through the ride. But there's just no way they have the experience to safely keep OTP in a 705 jet, or 360 kt turboprop for that matter.

One of the things engineers consider is "FOS" or "Factor of Safety". When you design an elevator, and it's maximum capacity is 1200 kg or 15 persons, that elevator can actually handle a lot more than that. A factor of safety is built into it that could easily handle 3000 kg, yet the legal number is much lower than that.

It's kind of the same thing with pilots. A 20,000 hr captain has a different "factor of safety" built into him than a 2000 hr captain.

I always chuckle when I see guys online acting as being a regional captain is a joke. I'd say it's some of the most challenging type of flying there is. You have many legs a day to busy airports, sometimes with inexperienced pilots. Think of that day 4 of 4 LGA turn, being 2 hrs late, snowing low visibility and you're a 2000 hr captain flying a CRJ 900 with a 200 hr F/O beside you. What's your "factor of safety"? How's the swiss cheese aligned?

[Turboprops]

Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy!

Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.

Perhaps. He is likely back at his old job making more money

He was probably told in the interview that he could expect a quick upgrade having an ATPL.

Is it stupid that he attempted the course, or is it stupid the company underpays their pilots which allowed this situation to occur?

Also note that ATPL instructor holders are intentionally hired for DEC King air and Metro positions. Something that would have been called equally stupid 5 or 10 years ago. And they operate successfully and safely.

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.

You keep saying flight instructors are being hired DEC on king airs/metros, please just name a few companies doing that. Last place I worked all external hired instructors struggled through FO flight training, some don’t even make it through the sims, it was a metro operator.

Proper training would be like a full year of line indoc for this guy, at which point it’s basically do a year of right seat and upgrade, and costs way too much.

Maybe he was told a quick upgrade, but that’s not DEC.

To answer some of your question, he failed the captain sim evaluation, had absolutely zero experience outside of an FTU before coming to Jazz. Do you think there are any training programs on planet earth that’ll prepare him to be a CRJ captain?

Captains are about making the right decisions, and he made a very stupid decision right off the bat.

[digits_]

You keep saying flight instructors are being hired DEC on king airs/metros, please just name a few companies doing that.

Fast Air and Perimeter in CYWG have done it.

I'd wager that every medevac operator has at least tried it in the last 5 years (minus covid years).

Last place I worked all external hired instructors struggled through FO flight training, some don’t even make it through the sims, it was a metro operator.

Proper training would be like a full year of line indoc for this guy, at which point it’s basically do a year of right seat and upgrade, and costs way too much.

Was he a particular sub par pilot? Or is your assumption that every instructor would need at least a year of right seat flying in order to be competent?

Maybe he was told a quick upgrade, but that’s not DEC.

DEC sure is a quick upgrade
That's more of a philosophical question at this point I guess

But yes, I agree quick upgrade doesn't imply DEC at all. Then again, many years ago, if they told me I would get a quick upgrade during my interview, and then before my training starts I have the option of getting DEC? I'd probably have taken it as well.

Remember, people *without* ATPL are offered metro captain spots nowadays. Big difference in aircraft size, but not so different in decision making skills.

To answer some of your question, he failed the captain sim evaluation,

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of the training process at Jazz. Is the 'captain sim evaluation' you refer to the first checkride you do, basically a left seat typerating?

Or is it a command course type of evaluation?

Did he get a second try for the eval? Do new hires usually get a second try if they fail the first eval?

had absolutely zero experience outside of an FTU before coming to Jazz.

Do you think there are any training programs on planet earth that’ll prepare him to be a CRJ captain?

If instructors can succesfully be taught how to be PIC flying NDB approaches without support into snowstorms up north with minimal support and flat out wrong information about runway condition and weather reports, then yes, it should be possible to have those same people fly from pavement A to pavement B in a fairly rigidly controlled environment.

The consequences for failure are much higher, but it does not require more decision making skills IMO.

Will they be as efficient as a higher, more experienced pilot initially? Perhaps (likely?) not. Will OTP suffer? Perhaps. But that's a purely economical decision from the airline ops team: do you pay more to get 705 experience and have better OTP, or do you pay less while giving instructors a chance
to do the job and accept that they will be operating in a new environment?

[Canadaflyer46]

This is exactly why I unfortunately fully expect a Colgan crash in Canada before Transport brings in a 1500 rule here. Same thing happening at Encore, unwilling to address the lack of experience with pay there, instead just lowering and lowering the bar. Soon to be 2000 hour captains with 250 hour FOs. It’ll be ok until it isn’t.
Hopefully when (I think at this stage it’s only a matter of time) someone piles one in it won’t result in a fatalities like it did in Buffalo.
And yes, I’m fully aware the Colgan pilots had >1500 hours. But the knee-jerk 1500 rule that stemmed from the crash has resulted in the safest decade in history for US aviation.
Anyone who thinks a flight instructor has any place in the left seat of an RJ needs to give their head a shake.

[digits_]

Anyone who thinks a flight instructor has any place in the left seat of an RJ needs to give their head a shake.

Do they have a place in the left seat of a medevac King Air or Metro?

[Canadaflyer46]

Anyone who thinks a flight instructor has any place in the left seat of an RJ needs to give their head a shake.

Do they have a place in the left seat of a medevac King Air or Metro?

When they’ve never flown in a cloud or done an approach to minimums? I would say not. I did close to a year in the right seat of a King Air before upgrading having come from instructing. I felt ready to upgrade at that time. I wouldn’t have even considered going straight to the left seat. I thought it was only Keystone that did that with instructors! Never flown a Metro but I hear they can be a handful.

[co-joe]

I flew as a Beech Captain for a couple years and I never saw a new FO that I would have been comfortable recommending for an upgrade on day one. The best FO I ever saw was a university educated flight instructor and he upgraded before his first recurrent PPC, probably could have done it after his first 100 hours on type. Just that perfect combination of attitude, intelligence, common sense, good looks, charm, etc

Point is, you often don't know, what you don't know, until you get there. Take the time to learn it from someone who is there.