Agreement in Principle reached

[Ash Ketchum]

One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.

Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.

I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?

What I meant to say is that if WJ were to get at least within 30-40% lower than US pilot pay rates, than AC would have an easier time negotiating higher pay rates later this year. With WJ only getting a 15% bump (effectively still only being paid roughly half of US pilots) I would think it would be unlikely to see AC get a 50-100% bump in pay for the next contract. If WJ were to get a 50% bump, than sure AC pilots would have more leverage to negotiate.

[fish4life]

One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.

Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.

I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?

From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.

[khedrei]

Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.

I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?

From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.

I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.

145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.

First year FO a different story.

I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!

[maverick12]

I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?

From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.

I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.

145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.

First year FO a different story.

I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!

No one makes YR 1 CA at WJ though, with YOS, most WJ pilots start at about YR 10 CA

[Canadaflyer46]

From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.

I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.

145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.

First year FO a different story.

I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!

No one makes YR 1 CA at WJ though, with YOS, most WJ pilots start at about YR 10 CA

Exactly. Currently a 9 year upgrade for YYZ and 14 years for YYC/YVR.
AC is at 2 years i believe.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.

145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.

First year FO a different story.

I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!

No one makes YR 1 CA at WJ though, with YOS, most WJ pilots start at about YR 10 CA

Exactly. Currently a 9 year upgrade for YYZ and 14 years for YYC/YVR.
AC is at 2 years i believe.

The door is closing on the 2yr upgrades at AC absent of any more expansion.(eg 20 more 787’s) Any substantial increases to CA pay and there will probably be a number of senior FO’s that will reconsider a move to the left seat. Right now the pay and schedule is not worth the move for a lot of FO’s with 10+ years. However that may open up a few more WB FO positions….
When the rules of the game change people change their positions.

-Jimmy

[JBI]

This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....

This is where the precise numbers are important.

Delta makes more than WJ. Period. I won't try and argue that. But, Delta also makes more than pretty much every other US carrier. Except... Delta's MMG is 65 hours a month. WJ's is 77.5.

Prior to the new agreement, for First Year FO's Delta pay was roughly $91, WJ's was roughly $65. 7th Year Captain pay at Delta was $273 and WJ was $193. But, when you factor in MMG, it's $6000 for Delta FO monthly vs. $5100 for WJ FOs monthly. For the Captains it's $17800 v. $15,000. This isn't double.

Now, you are right to point out that Delta pays in US dollars and WJ in Canadian dollars. It's not as easy as suggesting we take the exchange rate though. Despite crazy housing prices in some cities in Canada (and to be fair, Delta's junior base is LGA/JFK which has extremely high housing costs), the economic data shows that it's less expensive to live in Canada (primarily because of healthcare costs - as an aside, it's a really weird thing where after visiting the ER the doctor is like "ok, you're good to go, stop by the cashier on your way out!), but even regular food is, generally, similar in price in the US than in Canada. i.e. a can of coke will be $1.50 at a store in both the US and Canada. When I lived in the US but was back and forth to Canada, it became pointless to try and think about the exchange rate as everyday prices were generally similar. While there is an argument that the rate of Canadian to US pay should not be 1:1, it's not as easy as simply saying "the exchange rate is X, that's what Canadians should be paid". Outside of aviation, for example, the average income in the US is higher than in Canada.

All this to say that it's really important to look at the numbers and comparators and not simply state hyperbole. Delta does not make double our salary. Other US carriers do not make double WJ salary.

So at the end of the day, I can respect if people feel that the wage gains in this AIP isn't enough for them. I'm truly not saying "hey, we're Canadian we should settle for 'less than', but let's be realistic on the comparators. Having the anchor that was LOU2 removed from our necks is, in my opinion, the main benefit of this AIP. Include some pretty substantial pay raises that does keep us in the vicinity of US competitors of similar size and fleet make up, strong increase in take home pay as well as some improved scheduling items, on the surface, I think the MEC/NC did a good job and I'm looking forward to reading the Contract in full.

[Shark]

[/quote JBI]
Despite crazy housing prices in some cities in Canada (and to be fair, Delta's junior base is LGA/JFK which has extremely high housing costs), the economic data shows that it's less expensive to live in Canada (primarily because of healthcare costs - as an aside, it's a really weird thing where after visiting the ER the doctor is like "ok, you're good to go, stop by the cashier on your way out!)

Our healthcare is not free! Plus it is borderline third world country. @#$! off with that argument. I’ve seen it first hand.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Where did civility go?

Watch your mouths boys and girls. One never knows whom they might one day cross paths/share a flight deck with…


TPC

[altiplano]

If you haven't figured it out yet, Canada's "free" healthcare is almost non-existent.

Can't get a family doctor.
Can't get in to see a specialist.
Months, even years long wait for imaging.
No access to effective treatments and drugs for many diseases.
They're encouraging suicide for many as a more viable option for many patients.

I'll wager the difference in what I pay in taxes in Canada vs. most US States would more than make up for a very good insurance plan where I could actually get high quality healthcare vs. waiting to die in the hall here in canuckistan while another foreign anchor baby is born in the next room over.

[Chelsea Handler]

Healthcare is free for many in Canada because those who work pay triple so everyone else can enjoy waiting inline for the oh so good free care. Robin hood!

My family doctor books 2 months out right now if you say it's not urgent. This is what "free" care looks like.

And then you have the political crap. Doctors in Alberta pretending the world is falling... Like dude the pandemic is over... Wait you mean to tell me even without a pandemic our hospitals are shit and can't keep up? So what was the real difference during covid? Oh right, this is just a political game you play with our health. Covid hospital overflowing was all a hoax.... Our hospitals were always just shit to begin with.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6852938

[JBI]

[/quote JBI]
Despite crazy housing prices in some cities in Canada (and to be fair, Delta's junior base is LGA/JFK which has extremely high housing costs), the economic data shows that it's less expensive to live in Canada (primarily because of healthcare costs - as an aside, it's a really weird thing where after visiting the ER the doctor is like "ok, you're good to go, stop by the cashier on your way out!)

Our healthcare is not free! Plus it is borderline third world country. @#$! off with that argument. I’ve seen it first hand.

Wow, talk about jumping the Shark! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

First - I did not say Health Care was free. I simply said that when you look at reputable cost of living calculators, health care is a lower expense for most people in Canada than in the US.

Second - I said nothing about quality of Health Care in either country. As someone who lived in the US for years, I too have both positive and negative things to say about the US system and the Canadian System.

Third - There was no 'argument' about healthcare. Simply a discussion on why comparing salaries in US dollars and Canadian dollars is actually more complex than either looking at them 1:1 or using the current/recent exchange rate of .74:1

I'll wager the difference in what I pay in taxes in Canada vs. most US States would more than make up for a very good insurance plan where I could actually get high quality healthcare vs. waiting to die in the hall here in canuckistan while another foreign anchor baby is born in the next room over.

I enjoy discussing the differences in Health Care in the countries - maybe let's do so with less pejorative language. Lots of great things with US Healthcare. When I had a health issue in the states I was able to get into a specialist almost immediately. $70 co-pay and boom, have a specialist setting up tests and procedures which I was able to schedule for in days/weeks instead of months/years. But we were in New York where taxes and cost of living are higher. Looking at insurance plan costs, we paid approximately $15,000 a year in insurance (At the time a couple in our 30s, no kids) for a good plan but still had additional co-pays and deductibles. In one year when I had a mild health issue (and needing some extra tests to jump through TC's hoops) we had an additional $5000 in deductibles, co-pays and non-covered expenses. In a year with fertility and pregnancy, we also had health care expenses well into the thousands on top of our insurance plan.

This link has some info on average insurance plans in the US. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-i ... ance-cost/ - Now you're looking at over $20,000 a year for the best plans with a couple in their 40s and two kids.

Nonetheless, this is quite the thread drift that wasn't expected. I did not suggest that Canada's Healthcare was Free nor better, just less of an expense for the average person.

My original comment was only to show that Delta does not make "double" of what WJ was prior to both of their new agreements. The Health Care reference simply a discussion of why neither 1:1 nor .74:1 are the proper way to compare salaries between the US and Canada.

[RiskyBalloon]

This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....

This is where the precise numbers are important.

Delta makes more than WJ. Period. I won't try and argue that. But, Delta also makes more than pretty much every other US carrier. Except... Delta's MMG is 65 hours a month. WJ's is 77.5.

Prior to the new agreement, for First Year FO's Delta pay was roughly $91, WJ's was roughly $65. 7th Year Captain pay at Delta was $273 and WJ was $193. But, when you factor in MMG, it's $6000 for Delta FO monthly vs. $5100 for WJ FOs monthly. For the Captains it's $17800 v. $15,000. This isn't double.

Now, you are right to point out that Delta pays in US dollars and WJ in Canadian dollars. It's not as easy as suggesting we take the exchange rate though. Despite crazy housing prices in some cities in Canada (and to be fair, Delta's junior base is LGA/JFK which has extremely high housing costs), the economic data shows that it's less expensive to live in Canada (primarily because of healthcare costs - as an aside, it's a really weird thing where after visiting the ER the doctor is like "ok, you're good to go, stop by the cashier on your way out!), but even regular food is, generally, similar in price in the US than in Canada. i.e. a can of coke will be $1.50 at a store in both the US and Canada. When I lived in the US but was back and forth to Canada, it became pointless to try and think about the exchange rate as everyday prices were generally similar. While there is an argument that the rate of Canadian to US pay should not be 1:1, it's not as easy as simply saying "the exchange rate is X, that's what Canadians should be paid". Outside of aviation, for example, the average income in the US is higher than in Canada.

All this to say that it's really important to look at the numbers and comparators and not simply state hyperbole. Delta does not make double our salary. Other US carriers do not make double WJ salary.

So at the end of the day, I can respect if people feel that the wage gains in this AIP isn't enough for them. I'm truly not saying "hey, we're Canadian we should settle for 'less than', but let's be realistic on the comparators. Having the anchor that was LOU2 removed from our necks is, in my opinion, the main benefit of this AIP. Include some pretty substantial pay raises that does keep us in the vicinity of US competitors of similar size and fleet make up, strong increase in take home pay as well as some improved scheduling items, on the surface, I think the MEC/NC did a good job and I'm looking forward to reading the Contract in full.

Some very valid points. Well written. However, my underlying message was that the goal of getting closer to the 'North American standard' seems to be missed. I was not taking any currency exchange into consideration. My point was even if WJ and an American carrier have the same increase in average salaries, the American salary increase will be greater as they are paid more to begin with (albeit not double as you mentioned above). A percent increase of a larger number (Americans have higher salaries) will continue to be a greater number and the difference between our salaries will increase. Therefore the pay gap will increase and we will end up farther from the 'North American Standard' by the end of the contract. I don't expect to match an American salary, however it would be nice to close the gap somewhat. Just my two cents; I would like to see the contract in full however to get the complete picture.

[JBI]

Some very valid points. Well written. However, my underlying message was that the goal of getting closer to the 'North American standard' seems to be missed. I was not taking any currency exchange into consideration. My point was even if WJ and an American carrier have the same increase in average salaries, the American salary increase will be greater as they are paid more to begin with (albeit not double as you mentioned above). A percent increase of a larger number (Americans have higher salaries) will continue to be a greater number and the difference between our salaries will increase. Therefore the pay gap will increase and we will end up farther from the 'North American Standard' by the end of the contract. I don't expect to match an American salary, however it would be nice to close the gap somewhat. Just my two cents; I would like to see the contract in full however to get the complete picture.

All fair points. While there is a slight argument that because of the different levels of inflation in Canada vs. the US, 15.5% is actually equal to 18%, the reality is Delta's increase is larger than WJ's. I too look forward to reading the full TA. The does initially lead me to favour voting Yes, but I can definitely respect if others feel different.

[strengthinumbers]

Word on the street is there’s issues with the final language.

Comp wants scope changes to take affect more towards the end of the contract term. Union says no.

Just rumours for now. Stay tuned.

[averageatbest]

Word on the street is there’s issues with the final language.

Comp wants scope changes to take affect more towards the end of the contract term. Union says no.

Just rumours for now. Stay tuned.

Items that comes into effect at the end of a contract is something that has to be bargained for again, ergo, a no vote.

Language such as "should" and "when able" are not contractual items, ergo, a no vote.

Reneging on a tentative agreement signed at the last second to avoid a strike is bargaining in bad faith, ergo, a no vote.

[rudder]

Word on the street is there’s issues with the final language.

Comp wants scope changes to take affect more towards the end of the contract term. Union says no.

Just rumours for now. Stay tuned.

Items that comes into effect at the end of a contract is something that has to be bargained for again, ergo, a no vote.

Language such as "should" and "when able" are not contractual items, ergo, a no vote.

Reneging on a tentative agreement signed at the last second to avoid a strike is bargaining in bad faith, ergo, a no vote.

The Minister of Labour and the FMCS Director were present. It should not be that difficult to determine what EXACTLY was agreed to at the 11th hour.

Fog of war? Or just selective memory?

One can easily presume which party is having trouble remembering what was agreed to.

[maverick12]

Word on the street is there’s issues with the final language.

Comp wants scope changes to take affect more towards the end of the contract term. Union says no.

Just rumours for now. Stay tuned.

Highly doubt it

[airbussy]

Reneging on a tentative agreement signed at the last second to avoid a strike is bargaining in bad faith, ergo, a no vote.

Or agreeing vaguely to things, in order to stop a strike from happening when you have no intention to actually agree to the final language. We'll see if that's the case.

[renelevesque]

Good luck WestJet

[digits_]

This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....

This is where the precise numbers are important.

Delta makes more than WJ. Period. I won't try and argue that. But, Delta also makes more than pretty much every other US carrier. Except... Delta's MMG is 65 hours a month. WJ's is 77.5.

That's an extremely weird argument. WestJet makes you work more to make less? And that's being framed as a good thing?

[noreasterYHZ]

This is where the precise numbers are important.

Delta makes more than WJ. Period. I won't try and argue that. But, Delta also makes more than pretty much every other US carrier.

Delta may make more than other US airlines but not by 200%

The fact WJ pilots make less then Delta pilots like SouthWest does, doesn't mean it is ok that WJ pilots make 50% of what Delta pilots do

SouthWest pilots are at least in the same ball park

Stop rationalizing brutal pay

Its embarrassing

[maverick12]

Rumor

[digits_]

Rumor

That'd be great. You'd be negotiating again in a year because you won't be attracting enough FOs.

[BTD]

I saw that payscale earlier. I doubt it’s official. It’s just a bunch of salaries with no context. I’m going to bet when it is released it will be in an hourly rate format.