Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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twa22
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by twa22 »

thepoors wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:20 pm
twa22 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:52 pm
thepoors wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:12 pm

Fact is pilots (and unions) in the US realize their worth and don't take any shit. Canadian pilots are spineless losers with an inferiority complex who continue to allow management to step all over them. And continue to line up for what are nothing less than embarrassing wawcon.

Exhibit A: WJ pilot group voting 87% yes to just getting back what they've been robbed of for the past 4 years. Gains??...no where to be seen, but they're celebrating like what they've achieved is some victory.

Exhibit B: AC can't fill new hire classes fast enough.

It's sad and pathetic. Wouldn't surprise me if flat pay sticks around, because as a group Canadian pilots are weak willed morons who will take whatever garbage gets tossed their way with a smile and a thank you.
I'm curious where you work, because you shit in every thread you touch... i'm not here to defend the new Westjet CA, or what's happening with AC and where it will lead, but man, take a break... Westjet is at least moving in the right direction, and the hope is AC will beat WJ, which should move things further along... US regional FO's were making 20k a year around 10 years ago, and now look how far they've come... here's some old links so you can all amuse yourself, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw these pay scales

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... onsin.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... rways.html

Oh, that's regionals... ok, how about the majors, they were better, but not by much...

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

only ones that were paying decent even back then was Delta

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... Lines.html
I work somewhere that pays what I'm worth (goes without saying that's not any airline in Canada). I don't have to live in my parents' basement or visit a food bank to feed my kids while being responsible for a 200,000 lbs aircraft with 200+ lives in the back. And I would like to see the people who do, not have to make those kinds of ridiculous trade-offs. That's why I'm mad.

All you've done is highlight that Delta paid better 10 years ago than AC does now...and once again the defeatist attitude of "look how bad it could be." Instead of looking at how quickly they've solved their wage problems in the US and how they continue to improve. Let's not even speak of regionals because if we correct for inflation, add conversion, and factor the present cost of living in Canada, I guarantee Jazz and Encore pilots are making less of a real wage than even those US regionals were back then.

WJ guy is drinking the management line koolaid of "our take home is so much better!" - in reality the union touted 30-40% wage increases and settled for less than half that. AC will do the bare minimum to beat it and we will continue to fall further behind pilots in US - doing the same job for double and triple the pay. ACPA royally fkd a generation of pilots and now that there is an opportunity to right those wrongs and then some, people like you continue with these lukewarm attitudes just bending over to be taken advantage of by the company once again.
Did you miss every single link I sent regarding the other airlines? The point wasn't that Delta paid better then AC 10 years ago, the point was that US wages we're atrocious and look how far they've come since. It will eventually happen in Canada, when that will be, who knows... Canadians tend to lag behind the US quite a bit and are very slow to react, it's only recent that some have actually waken up and started realizing they've been trampled on this whole time, but it's a slow process, much like a lot of things in Canada

So with that said, if you aren't even working in Canada (or an airline in Canada), and this doesn't affect you, why do you care so much? Let it go and enjoy your life... if I learnt anything, one person shitting and having the loudest mouth won't change anything, especially on an anonymous forum
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RippleRock
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by RippleRock »

twa22 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:19 am
thepoors wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:20 pm
twa22 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:52 pm

I'm curious where you work, because you shit in every thread you touch... i'm not here to defend the new Westjet CA, or what's happening with AC and where it will lead, but man, take a break... Westjet is at least moving in the right direction, and the hope is AC will beat WJ, which should move things further along... US regional FO's were making 20k a year around 10 years ago, and now look how far they've come... here's some old links so you can all amuse yourself, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw these pay scales

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... onsin.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... rways.html

Oh, that's regionals... ok, how about the majors, they were better, but not by much...

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

only ones that were paying decent even back then was Delta

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... Lines.html
I work somewhere that pays what I'm worth (goes without saying that's not any airline in Canada). I don't have to live in my parents' basement or visit a food bank to feed my kids while being responsible for a 200,000 lbs aircraft with 200+ lives in the back. And I would like to see the people who do, not have to make those kinds of ridiculous trade-offs. That's why I'm mad.

All you've done is highlight that Delta paid better 10 years ago than AC does now...and once again the defeatist attitude of "look how bad it could be." Instead of looking at how quickly they've solved their wage problems in the US and how they continue to improve. Let's not even speak of regionals because if we correct for inflation, add conversion, and factor the present cost of living in Canada, I guarantee Jazz and Encore pilots are making less of a real wage than even those US regionals were back then.

WJ guy is drinking the management line koolaid of "our take home is so much better!" - in reality the union touted 30-40% wage increases and settled for less than half that. AC will do the bare minimum to beat it and we will continue to fall further behind pilots in US - doing the same job for double and triple the pay. ACPA royally fkd a generation of pilots and now that there is an opportunity to right those wrongs and then some, people like you continue with these lukewarm attitudes just bending over to be taken advantage of by the company once again.
Did you miss every single link I sent regarding the other airlines? The point wasn't that Delta paid better then AC 10 years ago, the point was that US wages we're atrocious and look how far they've come since. It will eventually happen in Canada, when that will be, who knows... Canadians tend to lag behind the US quite a bit and are very slow to react, it's only recent that some have actually waken up and started realizing they've been trampled on this whole time, but it's a slow process, much like a lot of things in Canada

So with that said, if you aren't even working in Canada (or an airline in Canada), and this doesn't affect you, why do you care so much? Let it go and enjoy your life... if I learnt anything, one person shitting and having the loudest mouth won't change anything, especially on an anonymous forum
Maybe, just maybe he's telling you and other Canadians exactly what they need to hear. It isn't "pleasant", and he isn't far off the truth. Actually it rings pretty clear.

Canadians are "spineless" in their pursuit of decent wages, and a bit dull if it takes so long to get our $hit together. Pilots at this organization are "literally climbing over each other" to do VO right now when we have already given notice that bargaining is happening, and in the face of a "enjoy you days off" message from our MEC Chair. It is nothing short of PATHETIC.

So, TWA guy, stop your "bleeting" about having your feelings hurt, and open your eyes to the reality of Canadian Aviation. We could learn a lot by stepping out of our "soft sensitive Canadian echo chamber". You should be thanking him for an outside opinion instead of admonishing him. We could ALL seriously use to learn something new.

One thing though, we are unique in our ability to undercut each others efforts to better the profession. We will get nowhere with the "me first" attitude that most possess in this country.

The Americans figured that out, why can't we? Yes, I agree, we're a bit slow.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Canadian airline pilots have been so poor for so long, they don't know how to make big strides in wawcon, without stepping on each other's toes. If you aren't bonded, then you are slotted into a seniority pecking order and if you miss your chance you will be sitting right seat to the next generations until you retire.

Add to that when pilots do make inroads, they are referred to as greedy, unreasonable and out of touch with the current labour market; despite their demands being quite inline.
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twa22
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by twa22 »

RippleRock wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:21 pm
twa22 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:19 am
thepoors wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:20 pm

I work somewhere that pays what I'm worth (goes without saying that's not any airline in Canada). I don't have to live in my parents' basement or visit a food bank to feed my kids while being responsible for a 200,000 lbs aircraft with 200+ lives in the back. And I would like to see the people who do, not have to make those kinds of ridiculous trade-offs. That's why I'm mad.

All you've done is highlight that Delta paid better 10 years ago than AC does now...and once again the defeatist attitude of "look how bad it could be." Instead of looking at how quickly they've solved their wage problems in the US and how they continue to improve. Let's not even speak of regionals because if we correct for inflation, add conversion, and factor the present cost of living in Canada, I guarantee Jazz and Encore pilots are making less of a real wage than even those US regionals were back then.

WJ guy is drinking the management line koolaid of "our take home is so much better!" - in reality the union touted 30-40% wage increases and settled for less than half that. AC will do the bare minimum to beat it and we will continue to fall further behind pilots in US - doing the same job for double and triple the pay. ACPA royally fkd a generation of pilots and now that there is an opportunity to right those wrongs and then some, people like you continue with these lukewarm attitudes just bending over to be taken advantage of by the company once again.
Did you miss every single link I sent regarding the other airlines? The point wasn't that Delta paid better then AC 10 years ago, the point was that US wages we're atrocious and look how far they've come since. It will eventually happen in Canada, when that will be, who knows... Canadians tend to lag behind the US quite a bit and are very slow to react, it's only recent that some have actually waken up and started realizing they've been trampled on this whole time, but it's a slow process, much like a lot of things in Canada

So with that said, if you aren't even working in Canada (or an airline in Canada), and this doesn't affect you, why do you care so much? Let it go and enjoy your life... if I learnt anything, one person shitting and having the loudest mouth won't change anything, especially on an anonymous forum
Maybe, just maybe he's telling you and other Canadians exactly what they need to hear. It isn't "pleasant", and he isn't far off the truth. Actually it rings pretty clear.

Canadians are "spineless" in their pursuit of decent wages, and a bit dull if it takes so long to get our $hit together. Pilots at this organization are "literally climbing over each other" to do VO right now when we have already given notice that bargaining is happening, and in the face of a "enjoy you days off" message from our MEC Chair. It is nothing short of PATHETIC.

So, TWA guy, stop your "bleeting" about having your feelings hurt, and open your eyes to the reality of Canadian Aviation. We could learn a lot by stepping out of our "soft sensitive Canadian echo chamber". You should be thanking him for an outside opinion instead of admonishing him. We could ALL seriously use to learn something new.

One thing though, we are unique in our ability to undercut each others efforts to better the profession. We will get nowhere with the "me first" attitude that most possess in this country.

The Americans figured that out, why can't we? Yes, I agree, we're a bit slow.
For the record, I wasn't born in Canada, so the funny thing you don't realize is, I actually agree with you and thepoors. I also never said my feelings are hurt, far from it.

But bitching about it nonstop and calling everyone dumb in a rude manner all the time isn't going to help, it's just going to piss off other pilots and then you wonder why everyone is climbing over each other to do VO... you can do it once or twice to make your point, but not every single post

I can't help Canadian pilots change their mind, I try my best though, but without calling everyone dumb...
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RippleRock
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by RippleRock »

twa22 wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:45 pm
RippleRock wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:21 pm
twa22 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:19 am

Did you miss every single link I sent regarding the other airlines? The point wasn't that Delta paid better then AC 10 years ago, the point was that US wages we're atrocious and look how far they've come since. It will eventually happen in Canada, when that will be, who knows... Canadians tend to lag behind the US quite a bit and are very slow to react, it's only recent that some have actually waken up and started realizing they've been trampled on this whole time, but it's a slow process, much like a lot of things in Canada

So with that said, if you aren't even working in Canada (or an airline in Canada), and this doesn't affect you, why do you care so much? Let it go and enjoy your life... if I learnt anything, one person shitting and having the loudest mouth won't change anything, especially on an anonymous forum
Maybe, just maybe he's telling you and other Canadians exactly what they need to hear. It isn't "pleasant", and he isn't far off the truth. Actually it rings pretty clear.

Canadians are "spineless" in their pursuit of decent wages, and a bit dull if it takes so long to get our $hit together. Pilots at this organization are "literally climbing over each other" to do VO right now when we have already given notice that bargaining is happening, and in the face of a "enjoy you days off" message from our MEC Chair. It is nothing short of PATHETIC.

So, TWA guy, stop your "bleeting" about having your feelings hurt, and open your eyes to the reality of Canadian Aviation. We could learn a lot by stepping out of our "soft sensitive Canadian echo chamber". You should be thanking him for an outside opinion instead of admonishing him. We could ALL seriously use to learn something new.

One thing though, we are unique in our ability to undercut each others efforts to better the profession. We will get nowhere with the "me first" attitude that most possess in this country.

The Americans figured that out, why can't we? Yes, I agree, we're a bit slow.
For the record, I wasn't born in Canada, so the funny thing you don't realize is, I actually agree with you and thepoors. I also never said my feelings are hurt, far from it.

But bitching about it nonstop and calling everyone dumb in a rude manner all the time isn't going to help, it's just going to piss off other pilots and then you wonder why everyone is climbing over each other to do VO... you can do it once or twice to make your point, but not every single post

I can't help Canadian pilots change their mind, I try my best though, but without calling everyone dumb...
I appreciate all that.

However, he's bang on. We are dumb. I've been in the Canadian industry 38 years, and quite frankly, we ain't the smartest bunch by far. We could use a little admonishing or "stripping down" from time to time.

We have a STELLAR opportunity to bring our adversaries to the table early. It's being squandered. YYZ and YUL are making fools of themselves doing "non-contractual voluntary stuff". This opportunity isn't going to come around again. We can make a little less now, or we can save up for a strike in the late fall.

I promise you a strike later will be far more painful and risky as the Corp will also have the weapon of a lockout. They don't have that right now.

This is the time when the Corp makes "bank", but they rely heavily on the goodwill (or GREED) of the Membership. They are chronically understaffed in the summer months. (yes that's now :roll: )

If we ALL get our $hit together for just a couple of weeks, the Corp will be begging us for a solution.

Remember the B1's were stripped from your allotment at a clerical COST to the Company. Someone pulled the trigger and signed off on that expense to get back at us. DON'T FORGET IT.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by altiplano »

Rowdy wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:26 am
altiplano wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:03 pm
rudder wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:02 pm

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.
40% year one, 20% more over 2 more years. Plus one year probation and then formula. Plus 10% more for the narrowbodies. Plus FOs back to 65% CA pay. Plus delete the RP position. Plus fix vacation credit. Plus no more optimizing blocks. Plus 5:30 calendar day average. Plus pension is 100% employer paid. Plus a whole lot more, we're worth it and this group is ready to do what it takes to earn it.
Flat pay should simply be abolished. Same work, same equipment same pay. Get a little extra year over years simply for YOS. Not this 4 year shenanigans of 'paying your dues'.
Hey Rowdy!

Absolutely - 1 year probation pay is industry standard, and then formula.
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NotDirty!
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by NotDirty! »

And that probation pay should still work out to be in the six figures….
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Rowdy
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by Rowdy »

NotDirty! wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:18 pm And that probation pay should still work out to be in the six figures….
It should be AT LEAST 80% of regular FO pay.

This industry is in serious need of an overhaul
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by cdnavater »

Rowdy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:52 am
NotDirty! wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:18 pm And that probation pay should still work out to be in the six figures….
It should be AT LEAST 80% of regular FO pay.

This industry is in serious need of an overhaul
Which should be 66% of Captain pay
FO pay should always be tied to Captain pay, that way when the top increases it brings the bottom up commensurately.
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walkabout
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by walkabout »

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... ase-union/

WestJet’s 1,800 pilots, represented by ALPA, recently ratified a four-year deal that raises wages by 24 per cent over the life of the contract. Pilots at Delta Air Lines in March approved a four-year contract with 34-per-cent wage hikes. Pilots at United Airlines have been offered an even richer deal, Reuters reported, as the busy summer travel season gets under way.

Pilots at U.S. discount carrier Spirit Airlines approved a contract that raises pay by 27 per cent over the next two years. JetBlue Airways pilots in January voted for a contract with 21.5-per-cent wage hikes over 18 months. FedEx pilots in July will vote on a contact that provides 30-per-cent raises
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RippleRock
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by RippleRock »

From the Globe article......

"Geraint Harvey, a professor at Western University, said management holds the balance of power in all labour talks because employees are dependent on them for their jobs. The shortage of pilots and strong demand makes this dynamic slightly less imbalanced, he said, “but that imbalance still exists.”

Is this guy F'ing joking? Management holds the balance of power in all labour talks???

Pilots are the ones who release the damn parking brake. If planes don't move, nobody gets paid. No one. That's a Management problem, not a pilot problem. Don't forget it.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RippleRock wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:06 pm From the Globe article......

"Geraint Harvey, a professor at Western University, said management holds the balance of power in all labour talks because employees are dependent on them for their jobs. The shortage of pilots and strong demand makes this dynamic slightly less imbalanced, he said, “but that imbalance still exists.”

Is this guy F'ing joking? Management holds the balance of power in all labour talks???

Pilots are the ones who release the damn parking brake. If planes don't move, nobody gets paid. No one. That's a Management problem, not a pilot problem. Don't forget it.
They do because they know how much they can afford to pay and it's extremely hard, near impossible to get all of the pilots to take job action.
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RippleRock
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by RippleRock »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:08 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:06 pm From the Globe article......

"Geraint Harvey, a professor at Western University, said management holds the balance of power in all labour talks because employees are dependent on them for their jobs. The shortage of pilots and strong demand makes this dynamic slightly less imbalanced, he said, “but that imbalance still exists.”

Is this guy F'ing joking? Management holds the balance of power in all labour talks???

Pilots are the ones who release the damn parking brake. If planes don't move, nobody gets paid. No one. That's a Management problem, not a pilot problem. Don't forget it.
They do because they know how much they can afford to pay and it's extremely hard, near impossible to get all of the pilots to take job action.
"....they know how much they can afford to pay"?

So what happens when fuel prices spike, do they tell the fueling company that "we know what we can afford to pay...sooo....." Or how about Boeing....." we know how much we can afford to pay for that hydraulic fitting, so that's what were paying." Or how about ever rising Nav Canada fees? "We can't afford to pay 20% more to have one of our aircraft land at Pearson....so we're not paying". I could go on like this about every single aviation expense.

Pilots are dumb, but they aren't stupid enough to buy that. Not one second. Haven't you been around long enough to understand that?


FWIW, as far as pulling together for proper job action, we all know it's coming at some point. A vote, followed by a directive from the Union leaves little opportunity to usurp one collegues. You've been around long enough to understand this too. So I don't buy the "...near impossible to get all pilots to take job action" either.

You thought your comments through right?
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RippleRock wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:57 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:08 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:06 pm From the Globe article......

"Geraint Harvey, a professor at Western University, said management holds the balance of power in all labour talks because employees are dependent on them for their jobs. The shortage of pilots and strong demand makes this dynamic slightly less imbalanced, he said, “but that imbalance still exists.”

Is this guy F'ing joking? Management holds the balance of power in all labour talks???

Pilots are the ones who release the damn parking brake. If planes don't move, nobody gets paid. No one. That's a Management problem, not a pilot problem. Don't forget it.
They do because they know how much they can afford to pay and it's extremely hard, near impossible to get all of the pilots to take job action.
"....they know how much they can afford to pay"?

So what happens when fuel prices spike, do they tell the fueling company that "we know what we can afford to pay...sooo....." Or how about Boeing....." we know how much we can afford to pay for that hydraulic fitting, so that's what were paying." Or how about ever rising Nav Canada fees? "We can't afford to pay 20% more to have one of our aircraft land at Pearson....so we're not paying". I could go on like this about every single aviation expense.

Pilots are dumb, but they aren't stupid enough to buy that. Not one second. Haven't you been around long enough to understand that?


FWIW, as far as pulling together for proper job action, we all know it's coming at some point. A vote, followed by a directive from the Union leaves little opportunity to usurp one collegues. You've been around long enough to understand this too. So I don't buy the "...near impossible to get all pilots to take job action" either.

You thought your comments through right?
You're giving a twisted meaning to what I said. Carry on with your rant without me, discourse with you is quite unpleasant.
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Re: Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

Post by RippleRock »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:28 pm
RippleRock wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:57 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:08 am

They do because they know how much they can afford to pay and it's extremely hard, near impossible to get all of the pilots to take job action.
"....they know how much they can afford to pay"?

So what happens when fuel prices spike, do they tell the fueling company that "we know what we can afford to pay...sooo....." Or how about Boeing....." we know how much we can afford to pay for that hydraulic fitting, so that's what were paying." Or how about ever rising Nav Canada fees? "We can't afford to pay 20% more to have one of our aircraft land at Pearson....so we're not paying". I could go on like this about every single aviation expense.

Pilots are dumb, but they aren't stupid enough to buy that. Not one second. Haven't you been around long enough to understand that?


FWIW, as far as pulling together for proper job action, we all know it's coming at some point. A vote, followed by a directive from the Union leaves little opportunity to usurp one collegues. You've been around long enough to understand this too. So I don't buy the "...near impossible to get all pilots to take job action" either.

You thought your comments through right?
You're giving a twisted meaning to what I said. Carry on with your rant without me, discourse with you is quite unpleasant.
Dude.

You wrote ONE sentence. Pretty hard to get the meaning messed up.

Sorry to hurt your feelings. Pretty disappointed that you think standing up for pilots worth (yes they can afford to pay us more...) and our ability to stand united in solidarity is a "rant".
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