Negotiations

[Morg]

AC plans to crew Jazz is by shrinking it, just watch overtime most of the cross border flying go to mainline and all 200s gone. So no point negotiating with Jazz management its AC calling the shots so we'll have to get the AC pilots to negotiate for us. Well maybe its time that no one does any OT at all sure we all can use the extra cash but its time to make life more difficult than it already is for them!!!!

[Malfunction]

Central mountain air will take over the west q flying. You hear it here first folks... there already looking and advertising for q400 trainers.

[truedude]

Central mountain air will take over the west q flying. You hear it here first folks... there already looking and advertising for q400 trainers.

They can't staff what they are doing. They are using retired Jazz pilots at 800 a day to do charter work. They can't do any of the west flying.

So stop with this stupid crap.

[mmm..bacon]

How does anchoring low raises at Jazz fortify bargaining against Air Canada pilots?

"If you guys don't cave and take these [below average] WAWCONs, we'll take all of the low frequency routes that we can and fold them into JAZZ routes! And the you guys [AC pilots] will lose jobs.." something like that perhaps?

[mervinmerv]

AC is not stupid. They are purposely leaving Jazz to bleed out on the table and one must ask them self why.

No raises, no retention bonuses, nothing we have seen in the US - they do not care if Jazz can staff itself. It seems like a pretty easy way to "organically" take back more of their own flying, eventually dissolving the contract altogether as Jazz cannot meet their part of the bargain. I also wouldn't put it past them to use this in their negotiations with AC pilots this Fall. Seems like a good time to try and sweep what's left of the Jazz pilots under a rug somewhere on the AC seniority list.

[Rowdy]

AC management is foolish.

This will not end well for them.

The industry is better engaged and connected than they were twenty years ago and we won't be manipulated or threatened. Theres also a MASSIVE lack of ATPL's in this country. Im sure they are already heavily lobbying to keep pilots from going stateside....

Every day that they don't bargain appropriately with us is a day that the rates go UP.

I flat out refuse to do any OT as will most of the skippers left here.

There is a massive exodus to WJ etc out west happening as we speak. Most of those folk have now seen how AC truly treats its 'workforce' and will never go to mainline.

Gotta love when bullys shoot themselves in the foot....


CMA and PAL cant staff their current operation at the present pay rates. They'd have to go significantly above Jazz's to attract anyone...

Good luck M.S. Your days are numbered

[Rowdy]

Central mountain air will take over the west q flying. You hear it here first folks... there already looking and advertising for q400 trainers.

They can't staff what they are doing. They are using retired Jazz pilots at 800 a day to do charter work. They can't do any of the west flying.

So stop with this stupid crap.

Not only are they paying over $800day plus per diems to get retired jazz classic drivers to do their charter work (a couple of the fishing charters no one can staff), they are also POS space'ing a lot of them from the island and the interior. Thats not a long term solution.. and they certainly won't be operating scheds.

[NovaBoy]

$800/day plus expenses is pretty lame in this environment. Corporate pilot rates are about $1500/day and up.

[Rowdy]

$800/day plus expenses is pretty lame in this environment. Corporate pilot rates are about $1500/day and up.

Lame as a line driver.. not so bad when you're retired and drawing off a DB pension. Again, it won't last long.

[Ash Ketchum]

AC management is foolish.

This will not end well for them.

The industry is better engaged and connected than they were twenty years ago and we won't be manipulated or threatened. Theres also a MASSIVE lack of ATPL's in this country. Im sure they are already heavily lobbying to keep pilots from going stateside....

Every day that they don't bargain appropriately with us is a day that the rates go UP.

I flat out refuse to do any OT as will most of the skippers left here.

There is a massive exodus to WJ etc out west happening as we speak. Most of those folk have now seen how AC truly treats its 'workforce' and will never go to mainline.

Gotta love when bullys shoot themselves in the foot....


CMA and PAL cant staff their current operation at the present pay rates. They'd have to go significantly above Jazz's to attract anyone...

Good luck M.S. Your days are numbered

Exactly very short sighted head in the sand thinking by management. AC management should be bending over backwards to retain and attract experienced pilots in this shortage like the US airlines are doing. Instead they are greedy, taking everything for themselves and continuing the race to the bottom. This will no doubt hurt shareholder confidence and profits in the mid/long term.

[Fanblade]

How does anchoring low raises at Jazz fortify bargaining against Air Canada pilots?

"If you guys don't cave and take these [below average] WAWCONs, we'll take all of the low frequency routes that we can and fold them into JAZZ routes! And the you guys [AC pilots] will lose jobs.." something like that perhaps?

A guess.

One of the die on a hill points for AC pilots is that they want their pre bankruptcy wages back. Minimum. They are roughly 15% higher than what WJ just got.

Jazz A scale pilots are far closer to pre bankruptcy wages than AC pilots are. It wouldn’t take much of an increase to A scale wages to match pre bankruptcy. AC pilots would be all over that if it were to happen.

Air Canada crews for summer peak. Nothing AirCanada does now will help this summer. This fall is when they start planning for the next peak. Summer 2024. At the moment they believe they still have time. It’s getting shorter. But still time.

Air Canada is more than willing to accept pain in an attempt not to pay. There is however a limit. We don’t know where that limit is and there is only one way to find it. Keep pushing.

[flyer 1492]

Pilots at Jazz were back to their pre bankruptcy wages within 4 years. It's something the MEC had written into the amended contract.

[Fanblade]

Pilots at Jazz were back to their pre bankruptcy wages within 4 years. It's something the MEC had written into the amended contract.

Adjusted for inflation they are not.

AC pilots are back above their pre bankruptcy wages as well. Inflation adjust 25-40% behind. Jazz is quite a bit closer to pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation. But not all the way there.

[rudder]

Pilots at Jazz were back to their pre bankruptcy wages within 4 years. It's something the MEC had written into the amended contract.

Adjusted for inflation they are not.

AC pilots are back above their pre bankruptcy wages as well. Inflation adjust 25-40% behind. Jazz is quite a bit closer to pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation. But not all the way there.

Regardless, Jazz senior management struck an omnibus deal with ALPA - likely including changes to the CPA - then got taken out at the knees by AC on the agreed upon pilot pay table. Credibility…. gone. And then AC presumes to softly enter the bargaining environment with a “for discussion” pay table.

Isn’t it great to pick and choose which parts of the deal work and which ones don’t? In any case, it is normally the responsibility of Jazz senior management to meet the CHR obligations under the CPA and manage any ancillary issues including the AC relationship.

There is no point in returning to any bargaining table that does not include AC. And even then, the prospects for an agreement are minuscule.

[Fanblade]

Pilots at Jazz were back to their pre bankruptcy wages within 4 years. It's something the MEC had written into the amended contract.

Adjusted for inflation they are not.

AC pilots are back above their pre bankruptcy wages as well. Inflation adjust 25-40% behind. Jazz is quite a bit closer to pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation. But not all the way there.

Regardless, Jazz senior management struck an omnibus deal with ALPA - likely including changes to the CPA - then got taken out at the knees by AC on the agreed upon pilot pay table. Credibility…. gone. And then AC presumes to softly enter the bargaining environment with a “for discussion” pay table.

Isn’t it great to pick and choose which parts of the deal work and which ones don’t? In any case, it is normally the responsibility of Jazz senior management to meet the CHR obligations under the CPA and manage any ancillary issues including the AC relationship.

There is no point in returning to any bargaining table that does not include AC. And even then, the prospects for an agreement are minuscule.

All the signs, not just those at Jazz, point to AC senior management preparing to go to war with ALL its pilots in the AC family. They have no respect for us. Only derision.

They have no intention of paying market rates.

We can’t make them listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Are people seriously putting in OT at Jazz after the way you have been treated?

[cdnavater]

Adjusted for inflation they are not.

AC pilots are back above their pre bankruptcy wages as well. Inflation adjust 25-40% behind. Jazz is quite a bit closer to pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation. But not all the way there.

Regardless, Jazz senior management struck an omnibus deal with ALPA - likely including changes to the CPA - then got taken out at the knees by AC on the agreed upon pilot pay table. Credibility…. gone. And then AC presumes to softly enter the bargaining environment with a “for discussion” pay table.

Isn’t it great to pick and choose which parts of the deal work and which ones don’t? In any case, it is normally the responsibility of Jazz senior management to meet the CHR obligations under the CPA and manage any ancillary issues including the AC relationship.

There is no point in returning to any bargaining table that does not include AC. And even then, the prospects for an agreement are minuscule.

All the signs, not just those at Jazz, point to AC senior management preparing to go to war with ALL its pilots in the AC family. They have no respect for us. Only derision.

They have no intention of paying market rates.

We can’t make them listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Are people seriously putting in OT at Jazz after the way you have been treated?

Not me, I won’t even take reassignment outside what is required in the collective agreement, if it’s not forced I won’t do anything above, nothing.
I also find myself unfit for duty more these days, not sure what it is

[CaptDukeNukem]

Regardless, Jazz senior management struck an omnibus deal with ALPA - likely including changes to the CPA - then got taken out at the knees by AC on the agreed upon pilot pay table. Credibility…. gone. And then AC presumes to softly enter the bargaining environment with a “for discussion” pay table.

Isn’t it great to pick and choose which parts of the deal work and which ones don’t? In any case, it is normally the responsibility of Jazz senior management to meet the CHR obligations under the CPA and manage any ancillary issues including the AC relationship.

There is no point in returning to any bargaining table that does not include AC. And even then, the prospects for an agreement are minuscule.

All the signs, not just those at Jazz, point to AC senior management preparing to go to war with ALL its pilots in the AC family. They have no respect for us. Only derision.

They have no intention of paying market rates.

We can’t make them listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Are people seriously putting in OT at Jazz after the way you have been treated?

Not me, I won’t even take reassignment outside what is required in the collective agreement, if it’s not forced I won’t do anything above, nothing.
I also find myself unfit for duty more these days, not sure what it is

Cottage-itis. I hear it’s going around

[ant_321]

All the signs, not just those at Jazz, point to AC senior management preparing to go to war with ALL its pilots in the AC family. They have no respect for us. Only derision.

They have no intention of paying market rates.

We can’t make them listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Are people seriously putting in OT at Jazz after the way you have been treated?

Not me, I won’t even take reassignment outside what is required in the collective agreement, if it’s not forced I won’t do anything above, nothing.
I also find myself unfit for duty more these days, not sure what it is

Cottage-itis. I hear it’s going around

It would have to be mommy and daddy’s cottage with what Jazz is paying.

[rudder]

So here is a relevant question - what do these developments mean in regard to the CHR/AC relationship?

Let’s look at 2023 thus far. Flight completion rate challenges. The PAL announcement. Lack of synchronization in labour/CPA related initiatives.

Despite a 10% ownership stake, is AC friend or foe? The AC PAL announcement received an extremely curt public response from the CHR CEO. Meanwhile the President of PAL is crowing publicly about its AC partnership - “ The inaugural flight that took place this weekend marks the start of an exciting new chapter for PAL Airlines, and a substantial step forward in our commercial relationship with Air Canada.”. And last week’s labour relations debacle is not indicative of regular high level communications between AC and CHR.

No doubt there are many issues swirling around while Jazz and ALPA attempt to stabilize pilot staffing at Jazz. But are all of the related parties working with the same agenda?

Perhaps not.

[truedude]

So here is a relevant question - what do these developments mean in regard to the CHR/AC relationship?

Let’s look at 2023 thus far. Flight completion rate challenges. The PAL announcement. Lack of synchronization in labour/CPA related initiatives.

Despite a 10% ownership stake, is AC friend or foe? The AC PAL announcement received an extremely curt public response from the CHR CEO. Meanwhile the President of PAL is crowing publicly about its AC partnership - “ The inaugural flight that took place this weekend marks the start of an exciting new chapter for PAL Airlines, and a substantial step forward in our commercial relationship with Air Canada.”. And last week’s labour relations debacle is not indicative of regular high level communications between AC and CHR.

No doubt there are many issues swirling around while Jazz and ALPA attempt to stabilize pilot staffing at Jazz. But are all of the related parties working with the same agenda?

Perhaps not.

The VP of Flight ops at AC, from my understanding, despises us, and hates that the regionals have jets. He is literally living in an old world, using old world thinking to try and solve new problems. The guy is a tool.

[flyer 1492]

Let me guess the VP is a former ACPA stooge????

[Crewbunk]

The VP of Flight ops at AC, from my understanding, despises us, and hates that the regionals have jets. He is literally living in an old world, using old world thinking to try and solve new problems. The guy is a tool.

Do you have a source for such a statement? In the 6 or so years, that he’s held that position I’ve never had that impression of him. Certainly never in any of his memos. VP of Flight Ops is a political position, he’d never make such a statement publicly.

Generally, he is well liked by the pilots. Much better than his predecessors. Honestly, he goes to bat for us so often, I’m surprised he hasn’t burned out and gone back on the line as a senior Triple Captain.

As far as Jazz having jets, I don’t think anyone begrudges their existence. Don’t forget that Air BC, Air Ontario and Air Nova all flew jets before the airlines were merged and Jazz was invented. The expansion of the jet operation at Jazz is regarded more that ACPA dropped the ball (gee, there’s a surprise) than anything against Jazz pilots.

[Crewbunk]

Let me guess the VP is a former ACPA stooge????

Quite the opposite. He came from the training department. Was an IOETC, then Line Check Pilot, then project pilot during the 787 introduction.

[TheStig]

Let me guess the VP is a former ACPA stooge????

Quite the opposite. He came from the training department. Was an IOETC, then Line Check Pilot, then project pilot during the 787 introduction.

You guys are talking about different people, the Senior VP is who Crewbunk is referring to. The newly promoted VP FOPs was an MEC member who after being recalled by the membership in the TA1-FOS era, went into management.

[TheStig]

Let me guess the VP is a former ACPA stooge????

Quite the opposite. He came from the training department. Was an IOETC, then Line Check Pilot, then project pilot during the 787 introduction.

You guys are talking about different people, the Senior VP is who Crewbunk is referring to. The newly promoted VP FOPs was an MEC member, who after being recalled by the membership in the TA1-FOS era, went into management.