smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:36 pm
1st year Dash FO at porter is 66% more than jazz 1st year
1st year Dash CA at porter is 30% more than jazz 1st year
This is good for everyone, soon will see everyone's pay goes up!
I heard the Jazz/ALPA raise was around 25-30% (that Air Canada quashed) so even that won’t be enough to keep people around.
Yup. That was yesterdays price.
And the market says the price is going up.
That deal should have been accepted. Go figure.
If it is the case that POE will honour tenure accrued at another carrier (on same type) then it is no longer about Year 1.
Every single Jazz pilot (top to bottom) is looking at a hefty pay raise by going to POE. I am sure that is exactly what was intended by the tenure provision.
Add to that crew bases in more desirable cities and it just makes staying less and less logical, even if AC is the ultimate goal.
Totally agree, for a company that don't have pilot union that can get two raise within 6 month, that is impressive! No, porter isn't perfect, but at least they wanting to be better, setting new bar for Canadian aviation. Bravo to them
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:57 am
How about Jazz alpa? big win incoming?
Jazz alpa already came to an agreement with Jazz Management and when it was presented to AC management, they refused to rubberstamp the deal so it's currently dead in the water. Alpa did their job, it's AC that's refusing to allow any gains at Jazz, even at the current state the company is in.
…all ALPA did is just prove they’re not worth 0.02% (let alone 2%) of your paycheck. Where was ALPA when the career contract was signed? Perhaps the Flair ALPA contract? Reality is forcing quick responses and CA’s and the whole bs that goes with negotiating over months and years is showing it’s true worth. Every non union pilot is protected by the Canada Labour Code…wage reductions, terms of work, layoffs, mergers..all for one low price….$0. Sure, Porter’s far from perfect…but, current wage issues aside…is Jazz? AC? WJ…all with union reps as well and no end to wawcon issues.
The word is, only Dash YOS will be matched from other operators. Not Embraer, but anyone coming from jazz on the E1 is getting a raise by going to porter
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:36 pm
1st year Dash FO at porter is 66% more than jazz 1st year
1st year Dash CA at porter is 30% more than jazz 1st year
This is good for everyone, soon will see everyone's pay goes up!
If it is the case that POE will honour tenure accrued at another carrier (on same type) then it is no longer about Year 1.
Every single Jazz pilot (top to bottom) is looking at a hefty pay raise by going to POE. I am sure that is exactly what was intended by the tenure provision.
Add to that crew bases in more desirable cities and it just makes staying less and less logical, even if AC is the ultimate goal.
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:45 pm
I wonder how jazz E1 pilots feel about this? Same type rating, almost same plane but E2 1st year at porter $76,500 vs E1 1st year at jazz $39,000. That is almost double And porter's health benefit/long and short term are way cheaper, $100 per month if I remember correctly.
Closer to $250 a month for enhanced family plan. But still a third of jazz deductions. Single pilot with no kids and wife could be $100 a month. Not sure.
What about the fine print where it says payscale valid until december 2024.. what happens after ? Is it just a temporary means to attract, and then back to lower wages ?
Flyerone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:20 pm
What about the fine print where it says payscale valid until december 2024.. what happens after ? Is it just a temporary means to attract, and then back to lower wages ?
Jan 2025 is just when the next CPI adjustment happens. There is no possibility to lower scales, that is protected by the Canadian Labour Code. No need to pay 2 percent a year in union dues to protect against that!
And with 1200 pilots being hired in 4 years....those that move from Jazz or Encore to Porter today will not only have their current D8 service time honored and see a massive pay increase, but they will also quickly move up to a high level of seniority. With Porter honoring time on type the shackles of the industry have now been removed!
Flyerone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:20 pm
What about the fine print where it says payscale valid until december 2024.. what happens after ? Is it just a temporary means to attract, and then back to lower wages ?
Jan 2025 is just when the next CPI adjustment happens. There is no possibility to lower scales, that is protected by the Canadian Labour Code. No need to pay 2 percent a year in union dues to protect against that!
Yup.
The fact is that it is a non-union carrier that is achieving the largest gains.
It may be due to where POE is in its expansion cycle, or it may be the SKY2.0 flight operations management presence, or it may be MD and his senior management group.
Whichever is the case - or all three - it is a good news story for the CDN piloting profession. And it is bad news for some longer term carriers that just aren’t willing or able to respond to a changing marketplace for pilots.
A carrier that attempts to rest on its laurels or cling to the past will find itself with very little subscription from pilots making both job and career choices.
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:45 pm
I wonder how jazz E1 pilots feel about this? Same type rating, almost same plane but E2 1st year at porter $76,500 vs E1 1st year at jazz $39,000. That is almost double And porter's health benefit/long and short term are way cheaper, $100 per month if I remember correctly.
Inverted2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:20 am
Meanwhile at Jazz…….
You can complain about how the industry is changing or you can accept it and deal with it. Porter has chosen the latter.
Well said. This also makes WJ alpa look like fools - 2mos out from their big "win"
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:36 am
You can complain about how the industry is changing or you can accept it and deal with it. Porter has chosen the latter.
Well said. This also makes WJ alpa look like fools - 2mos out from their big "win"
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
I thought they said porter flights were full, especially out west.. dont know who to believe anymore
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:45 pm
I wonder how jazz E1 pilots feel about this? Same type rating, almost same plane but E2 1st year at porter $76,500 vs E1 1st year at jazz $39,000. That is almost double And porter's health benefit/long and short term are way cheaper, $100 per month if I remember correctly.
Well said. This also makes WJ alpa look like fools - 2mos out from their big "win"
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
I thought they said porter flights were full, especially out west.. dont know who to believe anymore
They are typically very full. Not sure why that one was lighter. Everything westbound out of YYZ is hefty.
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
I thought they said porter flights were full, especially out west.. dont know who to believe anymore
They are typically very full. Not sure why that one was lighter. Everything westbound out of YYZ is hefty.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:36 am
You can complain about how the industry is changing or you can accept it and deal with it. Porter has chosen the latter.
Well said. This also makes WJ alpa look like fools - 2mos out from their big "win"
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
Where did I say it was out of the goodness of their hearts? It's obvious they have an attraction and retention problem, but they've actually been proactive about it and come up with something significant. They've seen the writing on the wall and made a positive move.
Which can't be said for WJ - they "recaptured" scope that was stolen from them to begin with and made otherwise marginal gains. Now they look like clowns and already find themselves behind a non-unionized regional airline.
Same thing at Jazz. Everyone is acting shocked that they are being screwed over, meanwhile 75% of those idiots voted for the 15 year deal they're now locked into. Classic case of "leopards ate my face." Maybe stop voting yes to these garbage contracts and have some self respect.
Well said. This also makes WJ alpa look like fools - 2mos out from their big "win"
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
Where did I say it was out of the goodness of their hearts? It's obvious they have an attraction and retention problem, but they've actually been proactive about it and come up with something significant. They've seen the writing on the wall and made a positive move.
Which can't be said for WJ - they "recaptured" scope that was stolen from them to begin with and made otherwise marginal gains. Now they look like clowns and already find themselves behind a non-unionized regional airline.
Same thing at Jazz. Everyone is acting shocked that they are being screwed over, meanwhile 75% of those idiots voted for the 15 year deal they're now locked into. Classic case of "leopards ate my face." Maybe stop voting yes to these garbage contracts and have some self respect.
Stay classy dude. Hope it works out for you. You'll realize at some point in your career a contract is so much more than pay scales.
They're not giving this raise out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because attraction and retention wasn't keeping with expansion. Were people not going because the pay or the belief that the business model is yet to be determined whether it will be successful? I flew out of YVR to Kelowna and was at the gate beside Porter to Toronto. Every flight leaving Vancouver was full that weekend and Porter boarded <40. I really hope this improves and the travelling public is given a choice that is better than the LCC competition, but mudslinging about what and how WJ ALPA achieved their results isn't helpful or contributing to the industry. Let's talk when the industry is on a downturn about collective agreements and negotiated contracts.
Where did I say it was out of the goodness of their hearts? It's obvious they have an attraction and retention problem, but they've actually been proactive about it and come up with something significant. They've seen the writing on the wall and made a positive move.
Which can't be said for WJ - they "recaptured" scope that was stolen from them to begin with and made otherwise marginal gains. Now they look like clowns and already find themselves behind a non-unionized regional airline.
Same thing at Jazz. Everyone is acting shocked that they are being screwed over, meanwhile 75% of those idiots voted for the 15 year deal they're now locked into. Classic case of "leopards ate my face." Maybe stop voting yes to these garbage contracts and have some self respect.
Stay classy dude. Hope it works out for you. You'll realize at some point in your career a contract is so much more than pay scales.
Really? Like that 17 year contract at Jazz, where the number 1 selling point was flow, which is now no longer being honored for the time being? Oh, how about that other clause where Jazz was to be the only CPA carrier until 2026? That worked out just like the contracted stated *cough* PAL *cough*
Let's be honest with each other, while a union can offer certain "protections", Porter has seemingly pulled their weight and offered appropriate wages for 2023 and aircraft type flown, when they didn't have to... As far as I'm aware, almost all 705s, except AC, have an attraction and retention issue, it just seems like Porter has gotten with the times first... WJ did alright with their new contract, but it could've been better, much better
Where did I say it was out of the goodness of their hearts? It's obvious they have an attraction and retention problem, but they've actually been proactive about it and come up with something significant. They've seen the writing on the wall and made a positive move.
Which can't be said for WJ - they "recaptured" scope that was stolen from them to begin with and made otherwise marginal gains. Now they look like clowns and already find themselves behind a non-unionized regional airline.
Same thing at Jazz. Everyone is acting shocked that they are being screwed over, meanwhile 75% of those idiots voted for the 15 year deal they're now locked into. Classic case of "leopards ate my face." Maybe stop voting yes to these garbage contracts and have some self respect.
Stay classy dude. Hope it works out for you. You'll realize at some point in your career a contract is so much more than pay scales.
Really? Like that 17 year contract at Jazz, where the number 1 selling point was flow, which is now no longer being honored for the time being? Oh, how about that other clause where Jazz was to be the only CPA carrier until 2026? That worked out just like the contracted stated *cough* PAL *cough*
Let's be honest with each other, while a union can offer certain "protections", Porter has seemingly pulled their weight and offered appropriate wages for 2023 and aircraft type flown, when they didn't have to... As far as I'm aware, almost all 705s, except AC, have an attraction and retention issue, it just seems like Porter has gotten with the times first... WJ did alright with their new contract, but it could've been better, much better
It isnt the money nor the contract, the real winner is whoever is still up & running a decade or 2 from now.
If it wasn’t for WJ ALPA recently signing a significant deal, including the elimination of swoop, I highly doubt that Porter would be comming to their pilots with this new benchmark. That’s why it’s called a benchmark. Typical Canadian pilots slamming other Canadian pilots. congrats to the Porter pilots who stepped up to the plate and forced managements hand
smooth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:57 am
How about Jazz alpa? big win incoming?
Jazz alpa already came to an agreement with Jazz Management and when it was presented to AC management, they refused to rubberstamp the deal so it's currently dead in the water. Alpa did their job, it's AC that's refusing to allow any gains at Jazz, even at the current state the company is in.
Big Red's negotiators are too used to feeling like "rock stars". The last 15 years have them overly reliant on LETS and pilots capitulating. They were the rising stars of the operation. Problem is there is a gravitation shift in progress.
They need a complete remap of their thinking, a complete paradigm shift. It will not happen fast enough and this team is going to end up looking like failure incarnate when they drop the ball hard. The shareholders will not be happy as the old-school "hard ball" approach will result in crews being stripped from the operation by other carriers and planes are left parked en-mass. It's going to happen fast.
PA-18 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:29 pm
If it wasn’t for WJ ALPA recently signing a significant deal, including the elimination of swoop, I highly doubt that Porter would be comming to their pilots with this new benchmark. That’s why it’s called a benchmark. Typical Canadian pilots slamming other Canadian pilots. congrats to the Porter pilots who stepped up to the plate and forced managements hand
It's true, we have them to thank for the recent bump, and for pulling out of eastern Canada.
And porter's health benefit/long and short term are way cheaper, $100 per month if I remember correctly.
