window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

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window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by oldncold »

Explosive decompression of an alaska airline flight after cabin window blows out near oregon. Ctv news reporting. :shock:
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

It was a deactivated emergency exit. All 737-900 and Max-9’s come with 2 extra mid body doors to allow high density seating. If the airline doesn’t need it the door is installed without any actuating hardware or slide and the latches bolted shut. The inside is then covered with a regular sidewall panel.y

The entire door departed the aircraft as it was climbing through 16,000 ft. The airplane was apparently less than 2 months old and had flown 145 sectors.

Nobody hurt, but they are very lucky it did not happen at FL 360
Not a good look for Boeing…..
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Inverted2 »

It’s the modern day Ford Pinto of airliners. Mass produced, inherent design flaw (engines installed in the wrong C of G), and lots of recalls (ADs) and quality control issues.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by boeingboy »

Inverted2 wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:28 pm It’s the modern day Ford Pinto of airliners. Mass produced, inherent design flaw (engines installed in the wrong C of G), and lots of recalls (ADs) and quality control issues.
How many times do you want to post the same crap?
There are no inherent design flaws - thats just water cooler crap. Quality control issues are not the airplanes fault, and all airplanes have AD's. The MAX doesn't have that many.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by BMLtech »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:39 am It was a deactivated emergency exit. All 737-900 and Max-9’s come with 2 extra mid body doors to allow high density seating. If the airline doesn’t need it the door is installed without any actuating hardware or slide and the latches bolted shut. The inside is then covered with a regular sidewall panel.y

The entire door departed the aircraft as it was climbing through 16,000 ft. The airplane was apparently less than 2 months old and had flown 145 sectors.

Nobody hurt, but they are very lucky it did not happen at FL 360
Not a good look for Boeing…..
Hard to imagine how this could happen,outside of a structural failure of the door itself, or a complete mis-rig of the latching mechanism.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by boeingboy »

Hard to imagine how this could happen,outside of a structural failure of the door itself, or a complete mis-rig of the latching mechanism.
No latching mechanism. Just 2 bolts on the top side of the door.

Seeing as how it worked for 2 months (150 cycles. Brand new airplane) and they had pressurizations issues for 2 days prior, my guess would be something along the lines of the 2 bolts were installed during manufacture and someone forgot to install the nuts. The bolts simply vibrated out of the brackets and.....bang.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by BMLtech »

boeingboy wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:19 pm
Hard to imagine how this could happen,outside of a structural failure of the door itself, or a complete mis-rig of the latching mechanism.
No latching mechanism. Just 2 bolts on the top side of the door.

Seeing as how it worked for 2 months (150 cycles. Brand new airplane) and they had pressurizations issues for 2 days prior, my guess would be something along the lines of the 2 bolts were installed during manufacture and someone forgot to install the nuts. The bolts simply vibrated out of the brackets and.....bang.
Yup I had a look at the design, and my money is on missing locking bolts too, for whatever reason. In my former life, this was an RII or dual signature item.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Inverted2 »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... m=referral

iPhone survives 16,000 foot drop from Alaska Airlines flight where panel ripped off.

Two cell phones were recovered from the Alaska Airlines Boeing 737 Max 9 jet that had an inflight explosive episode as it flew across Oregon over the weekend.

The incident occurred on Friday just as the plane was making its way to Ontario, California.

During a news conference on Sunday, National Transportation Safety Board Chair Jennifer Homendy confirmed that the devices were recovered by residents in the area where the door plug fell from the structure.

“Some community members found a cell phone in a yard and a cell phone on the side of the road and contacted us and handed them in,” she said.

One of the devides, which appears to be an iPhone, still appeared to be completely intact and functional after it dropped from 16,000 feet in the sky. The cell phone still had part of a charger attached to it.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by 7ECA »

Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 1:56 pm One of the devides, which appears to be an iPhone, still appeared to be completely intact and functional after it dropped from 16,000 feet in the sky.
Obviously not just a cellphone, but one in some kind of a case. Which ever company made it, is about to have quite the marketing meeting.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by goldeneagle »

CNN is reporting that United has found loose bolts in door plugs they are inspecting.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Eric Janson »

goldeneagle wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:31 pm CNN is reporting that United has found loose bolts in door plugs they are inspecting.
"designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys".

- Quote from a Boeing internal message regarding the 737 MAX development.

Full article from Reuters:- https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1Z902M/

And from the Boeing CEO

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-04-18 ... ion-Report
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by yhz41 »

nicholasblake wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:45 am
Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 1:56 pm https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... m=referral

iPhone survives 16,000 foot drop from Alaska Airlines flight where panel ripped off.

Two cell phones were recovered from the Alaska Airlines Boeing 737 Max 9 jet that had an inflight explosive episode as it flew across Oregon over the weekend.

The incident occurred on Friday just as the plane was making its way to Ontario, California.

During a news conference on Sunday, National Transportation Safety Board Chair Jennifer Homendy confirmed that the devices were recovered by residents in the area where the door plug fell from the structure.

“Some community members found a cell phone in a yard and a cell phone on the side of the road and contacted us and handed them in,” she said.

One of the devides, which appears to be an iPhone, still appeared to be completely intact and functional after it dropped from 16,000 feet in the sky. The cell phone still had part of a charger attached to it.
In a remarkable incident, an iPhone survived a 16,000-foot drop from an Alaska Airlines flight, even after the panel was ripped off during the fall. The resilient device managed to withstand the extreme conditions, leaving onlookers astonished at its durability. The incident highlights the robust build of the iPhone, showcasing its ability to endure unexpected challenges. Experts are intrigued by this rare case, sparking discussions on the remarkable survival of the technology.
I'm more interested in what kind of case it has on it than the phone. Surely they'll tell us what phone case it was eventually right?
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by rigpiggy »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=maLBGFYl9 ... 5lbA%3D%3D

I suggest anyone on the 737 to subscribe to this channel. Also check out blancolirio for an in depth on this.

Can the mods compress the threads on this
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Gear Jerker »

RIP to this brave soul's pension. Copy and pasted from:

https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/15/unpla ... ent-509962

^ poster name: throwawayboeingN704AL

"
Current Boeing employee here – I will save you waiting two years for the NTSB report to come out and give it to you for free: the reason the door blew off is stated in black and white in Boeings own records. It is also very, very stupid and speaks volumes about the quality culture at certain portions of the business.
A couple of things to cover before we begin:
Q1) Why should we believe you?
A) You shouldn’t, I’m some random throwaway account, do your own due diligence. Others who work at Boeing can verify what I say is true, but all I ask is you consider the following based on its own merits.
Q2) Why are you doing this?
A) Because there are many cultures at Boeing, and while the executive culture may be throughly compromised since we were bought by McD, there are many other people who still push for a quality product with cutting edge design. My hope is that this is the wake up call that finally forces the Board to take decisive action, and remove the executives that are resisting the necessary cultural changes to return to a company that values safety and quality above schedule.
With that out of the way… why did the left hand (LH) mid-exit door plug blow off of the 737-9 registered as N704AL? Simple- as has been covered in a number of articles and videos across aviation channels, there are 4 bolts that prevent the mid-exit door plug from sliding up off of the door stop fittings that take the actual pressurization loads in flight, and these 4 bolts were not installed when Boeing delivered the airplane, our own records reflect this.
The mid-exit doors on a 737-9 of both the regular and plug variety come from Spirit already installed in what is supposed to be the final configuration and in the Renton factory, there is a job for the doors team to verify this “final” install and rigging meets drawing requirements. In a healthy production system, this would be a “belt and suspenders” sort of check, but the 737 production system is quite far from healthy, its a rambling, shambling, disaster waiting to happen. As a result, this check job that should find minimal defects has in the past 365 calendar days recorded 392 nonconforming findings on 737 mid fuselage door installations (so both actual doors for the high density configs, and plugs like the one that blew out). That is a hideously high and very alarming number, and if our quality system on 737 was healthy, it would have stopped the line and driven the issue back to supplier after the first few instances. Obviously, this did not happen. Now, on the incident aircraft this check job was completed on 31 August 2023, and did turn up discrepancies, but on the RH side door, not the LH that actually failed. I could blame the team for missing certain details, but given the enormous volume of defects they were already finding and fixing, it was inevitable something would slip through- and on the incident aircraft something did. I know what you are thinking at this point, but grab some popcorn because there is a plot twist coming up.
The next day on 1 September 2023 a different team (remember 737s flow through the factory quite quickly, 24 hours completely changes who is working on the plane) wrote up a finding for damaged and improperly installed rivets on the LH mid-exit door of the incident aircraft.
A brief aside to explain two of the record systems Boeing uses in production. The first is a program called CMES which stands for something boring and unimportant but what is important is that CMES is the sole authoritative repository for airplane build records (except on 787 which uses a different program). If a build record in CMES says something was built, inspected, and stamped in accordance with the drawing, then the airplane damn well better be per drawing. The second is a program called SAT, which also stands for something boring and unimportant but what is important is that SAT is *not* an authoritative records system, its a bullentin board where various things affecting the airplane build get posted about and updated with resolutions. You can think of it sort of like a idiots version of Slack or something. Wise readers will already be shuddering and wondering how many consultants were involved, because, yes SAT is a *management visibilty tool*. Like any good management visibilty tool, SAT can generate metrics, lots of metrics, and oh God do Boeing managers love their metrics. As a result, SAT postings are the primary topic of discussion at most daily status meetings, and the whole system is perceived as being extremely important despite, I reiterate, it holding no actual authority at all.
We now return to our incident aircraft, which was written up for having defective rivets on the LH mid-exit door. Now as is standard practice kn Renton (but not to my knowledge in Everett on wide bodies) this write-up happened in two forms, one in CMES, which is the correct venue, and once in SAT to “coordinate the response” but really as a behind-covering measure so the manager of the team that wrote it can show his boss he’s shoved the problem onto someone else. Because there are so many problems with the Spirit build in the 737, Spirit has teams on site in Renton performing warranty work for all of their shoddy quality, and this SAT promptly gets shunted into their queue as a warranty item. Lots of bickering ensues in the SAT messages, and it takes a bit for Spirit to get to the work package. Once they have finished, they send it back to a Boeing QA for final acceptance, but then Malicious Stupid Happens! The Boeing QA writes another record in CMES (again, the correct venue) stating (with pictures) that Spirit has not actually reworked the discrepant rivets, they *just painted over the defects*. In Boeing production speak, this is a “process failure”. For an A&P mechanic at an airline, this would be called “federal crime”.
Presented with evidence of their malfeasance, Spirit reopens the package and admits that not only did they not rework the rivets properly, there is a damaged pressure seal they need to replace (who damaged it, and when it was damaged is not clear to me). The big deal with this seal, at least according to frantic SAT postings, is the part is not on hand, and will need to be ordered, which is going to impact schedule, and (reading between the lines here) Management is Not Happy. 1/2


2/2
However, more critical for purposes of the accident investigation, the pressure seal is unsurprisingly sandwiched between the plug and the fuselage, and you cannot replace it without opening the door plug to gain access. All of this conversation is documented in increasingly aggressive posts in the SAT, but finally we get to the damning entry which reads something along the lines of “coordinating with the doors team to determine if the door will have to be removed entirely, or just opened. If it is removed then a Removal will have to be written.” Note: a Removal is a type of record in CMES that requires formal sign off from QA that the airplane been restored to drawing requirements.
If you have been paying attention to this situation closely, you may be able to spot the critical error: regardless of whether the door is simply opened or removed entirely, the 4 retaining bolts that keep it from sliding off of the door stops have to be pulled out. A removal should be written in either case for QA to verify install, but as it turns out, someone (exactly who will be a fun question for investigators) decides that the door only needs to be opened, and no formal Removal is generated in CMES (the reason for which is unclear, and a major process failure). Therefore, in the official build records of the airplane, a pressure seal that cannot be accessed without opening the door (and thereby removing retaining bolts) is documented as being replaced, but the door is never officially opened and thus no QA inspection is required.
This entire sequence is documented in the SAT, and the nonconformance records in CMES address the damaged rivets and pressure seal, but at no point is the verification job reopened, or is any record of removed retention bolts created, despite it this being a physical impossibility. Finally with Spirit completing their work to Boeing QAs satisfaction, the two rivet-related records in CMES are stamped complete, and the SAT closed on 19 September 2023. No record or comment regarding the retention bolts is made.
I told you it was stupid.
So, where are the bolts? Probably sitting forgotten and unlabeled (because there is no formal record number to label them with) on a work-in-progress bench, unless someone already tossed them in the scrap bin to tidy up.
There’s lots more to be said about the culture that enabled this to happened, but thats the basic details of what happened, the NTSB report will say it in more elegant terms in a few years.
"

Seattle Times article expanding on this:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... max-9-jet/

Boeing Commercial Airplanes really appears to be at a tipping point, in terms of safety culture/focus on quality, over beancounters having their way at all costs.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by boeingboy »

The bolts had to have been installed - or at least some of them. Just not with the nuts or cotter pins installed....otherwise the door would have popped up and opened just sitting on the ramp - not after 150 cycles.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by DanWEC »

There are pics floating around.

Bolts had zero retention. No lockwire, washers, hell even loctite.

Another apology from the CEO and "We'll learn from this"

346 people died last time Boeing was caught cutting corners and outsourcing to the lowest bidder.

Not 1
Not 5
Not 100

Not 200

3.4.6.

Last time it was software to India, this time it's to a manufacturer.

I don't want to be on board next time there's something Boeing can "Learn from". I'm honestly on the verge of avoiding all flights on any 737 Max product.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by rookiepilot »

I’ve been doing some reading that BA’s focus on meeting DEI targets, to the exclusion of proper management hiring and oversight is the cause of some of their problems.

I believe it. No different than at Harvard except Harvard’s disgrace isn’t likely to kill anyone.

Its infected the FAA. Today, the FAA, Boeing management, and a US Senator! — were all out on the airwaves, in essence “nothing to see here”. Please keep flying. We will fix this in a jiffy. (And please buy BA stock).

The rot runs deep.

Of course up here in JT’s world, I’m considered an intolerant, racist version of toxic masculinity for even saying this about DEI.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Gear Jerker »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:30 pm I’ve been doing some reading that BA’s focus on meeting DEI targets, to the exclusion of proper management hiring and oversight is the cause of some of their problems.

I believe it. No different than at Harvard except Harvard’s disgrace isn’t likely to kill anyone.

Its infected the FAA. Today, the FAA, Boeing management, and a US Senator! — were all out on the airwaves, in essence “nothing to see here”. Please keep flying. We will fix this in a jiffy. (And please buy BA stock).

The rot runs deep.

Of course up here in JT’s world, I’m considered an intolerant, racist version of toxic masculinity for even saying this about DEI.
I think it's far more likely the same root cause as before. Boeing was built as a great company by focusing on being a great engineering company, designing and producing consistently great products as priority number one. As is well publicized, with the McDonell Douglas merger and Harry Stonecipher's leadership, the focus became quarterly results.

Now again, we appear to have a "slipped through the cracks" case, which was inevitable in a chaotic production line environment where the focus is on cranking out airplanes and trying to meet production quotas, rather than ensuring every airplane is assembled perfectly.

Looking ahead, I heard that Boeing has hired a former US Admiral who was in charge of the Nuclear Submarine fleet quality control, to oversee QC at Boeing. That is entirely hearsay, some of that may be inaccurate.

I think the venerable Boeing is at a true inflection point. 30 years from now in B school textbooks, Boeing will either be an example of a successful turnaround in corporate culture post crisis (aka criminal negligence which caused mass fatalities) with a renewed focus on quality and process etc. and a gradual recovery in reputation, or; as an example of how a once great company failed to course correct and were eventually outcompeted by competitors who did manage to design and produce consistently great products.

As far as the DEI/ESG comments:

This is a time of change in western culture whether you like it or not. Does a time of change sometimes mean overcorrection/overemphasis on things that maybe aren't that important? I think it does, and many legitimate examples can be found that demonstrate this to be true.

At the same time, there is a media/news ecosystem whose business model is sustained by pumping this narrative for all that it's worth, and sometimes the frequency and/or impact is really not as significant as they can lead us to believe. Do you REALLY think that the route cause is that Boeing is too "woke"? Or is that an intellectually lazy blanket to throw on the fire, where in reality like all things in life the answer is much more complicated; has many more factors, and many different things are true at the same time.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by digits_ »

Gear Jerker wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:10 pm
As far as the DEI/ESG comments:

This is a time of change in western culture whether you like it or not. Does a time of change sometimes mean overcorrection/overemphasis on things that maybe aren't that important? I think it does, and many legitimate examples can be found that demonstrate this to be true.

At the same time, there is a media/news ecosystem whose business model is sustained by pumping this narrative for all that it's worth, and sometimes the frequency and/or impact is really not as significant as they can lead us to believe. Do you REALLY think that the route cause is that Boeing is too "woke"? Or is that an intellectually lazy blanket to throw on the fire, where in reality like all things in life the answer is much more complicated; has many more factors, and many different things are true at the same time.
Perhaps not a root cause, but I'd wager it's a factor. If it doesn't matter anymore that you're the best because you happen to have the wrong skin color or sexuality, why would you even bother trying to be the best? It's a motivational issue. If your motivation drains, your work will suffer. Especially in an environment where management is (allegedly) too number oriented, you need those motivated workers to stand up and say 'hey, this isn't right' or 'we should really do X, Y, Z'. If those workers aren't motivated, or have one foot out the door because they have been passed over for promotion for (granted, perceived) diversity hires, you'll weaken the system instead of making it stronger.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by rookiepilot »

Gear Jerker wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:10 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:30 pm I’ve been doing some reading that BA’s focus on meeting DEI targets, to the exclusion of proper management hiring and oversight is the cause of some of their problems.

I believe it. No different than at Harvard except Harvard’s disgrace isn’t likely to kill anyone.

Its infected the FAA. Today, the FAA, Boeing management, and a US Senator! — were all out on the airwaves, in essence “nothing to see here”. Please keep flying. We will fix this in a jiffy. (And please buy BA stock).

The rot runs deep.

Of course up here in JT’s world, I’m considered an intolerant, racist version of toxic masculinity for even saying this about DEI.
I think it's far more likely the same root cause as before. Boeing was built as a great company by focusing on being a great engineering company, designing and producing consistently great products as priority number one. As is well publicized, with the McDonell Douglas merger and Harry Stonecipher's leadership, the focus became quarterly results.

Now again, we appear to have a "slipped through the cracks" case, which was inevitable in a chaotic production line environment where the focus is on cranking out airplanes and trying to meet production quotas, rather than ensuring every airplane is assembled perfectly.

Looking ahead, I heard that Boeing has hired a former US Admiral who was in charge of the Nuclear Submarine fleet quality control, to oversee QC at Boeing. That is entirely hearsay, some of that may be inaccurate.

I think the venerable Boeing is at a true inflection point. 30 years from now in B school textbooks, Boeing will either be an example of a successful turnaround in corporate culture post crisis (aka criminal negligence which caused mass fatalities) with a renewed focus on quality and process etc. and a gradual recovery in reputation, or; as an example of how a once great company failed to course correct and were eventually outcompeted by competitors who did manage to design and produce consistently great products.

As far as the DEI/ESG comments:

This is a time of change in western culture whether you like it or not. Does a time of change sometimes mean overcorrection/overemphasis on things that maybe aren't that important? I think it does, and many legitimate examples can be found that demonstrate this to be true.

At the same time, there is a media/news ecosystem whose business model is sustained by pumping this narrative for all that it's worth, and sometimes the frequency and/or impact is really not as significant as they can lead us to believe. Do you REALLY think that the route cause is that Boeing is too "woke"? Or is that an intellectually lazy blanket to throw on the fire, where in reality like all things in life the answer is much more complicated; has many more factors, and many different things are true at the same time.
I think the problem is America, its deep rooted, and DEI is only one aspect of a bigger problem.

And that is, a selfish, lazy culture that doesn't give a rip about quality. Why bother? Just print money and inflate housing prices, for people to borrow on and spend....oops, shit here is inflation.

DEI is an expression of this. Lets hire to make the corporate brochure look good, not absolute excellence. Look at the Harvard story with their president and her academic credentials. This is HARVARD! Tragic.

(This of course is in Canada as well, but since we build almost nothing, create even less, who gives a rip to this discussion)

I also think we are about to repeat when Japan entered the car market in the 1970s, with China. Everyone laughed, until they didn't. They are coming, and will kick BAs ass. Unless the US goes full 1930s trade sanctions.

That ended well.

Looking at you, Tesla, Apple....and Boeing.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by mmm...bacon »

I dunno, RookiePilot…every time I buy something with ‘made in China’ stamped on it, I regret it a few days/months/years later, when the widget fails, and I have to re-buy the same thing - only made out of proper materials. If you think that Boeing has a QC problem - wait until China gets into the game!
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by rookiepilot »

They used to say that about Jap cars, too….
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by Eric Janson »

I see some of you don't see the problem with the DIE (much more appropriate) agenda.

It's quite simple - instead of hiring the most qualified people people are now hired based on arbitrary characteristics such as race/gender/sexual orientation etc.

The end result of this should be obvious - already been a 767 freighter crash where the FO should never have been hired.

We need the most qualified people building/maintaining/flying aircraft - anything else is not acceptable imho.

Boeing and Spirit Aerospace are fully onboard with DIE - the results speak for themselves with the MAX and 787 issues.

United Airlines is now using DIE in its Pilot hiring - only one way that ends imho.

If you have Netflix - Downfall: The case against Boeing is a must watch. The culture of Impunity and Zero Accountability is quite shocking.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

I think a big problem is that you're not allowed to say that Eric. It's considered, by a minority that's in power, to be an unacceptable view.
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Re: window blows out on alaska airlines / emergency landing

Post by rigpiggy »

In other news Airbus has fatigue cracking in their new 320 series

https://www.airguide.info/easa-expands- ... eo-models/
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