Is the ACPA Motto: "We will get'em next time" gone?

[RippleRock]

Those who choose not to prepare for a strike are foolish. ALPA does not tolerate scabs. There is still a "scab list" from a strike in the early 80's down in the States. To this day those guys are banned from many flight deck jumpseats.

A strike or lockout IS coming, it's just a matter of when. Expect as early as August, and as late as November. A LOC for $5000 to $10,000 should get most households through a month, or put off a bigger planned purchase until next fall. The "strike pay" isn't insignificant. Most banks will allow a "interest only" mortgage payment in the event of a strike or lockout. There are plenty of effective ways to mitigate the impact financially. A two week lockout/walkout shouldn't affect families much. The payback will be worth every dime and then some.

Either way, be ready.

You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow professionals.

[Ash Ketchum]

There are a lot of pilots on flat pay. Not hard to make more money than that doing something else (Uber, etc...) during a strike or lockout. It is hard to save enough in preparation for the strike on flat pay though.

[PostmasterGeneral]

There are a lot of pilots on flat pay. Not hard to make more money than that doing something else (Uber, etc...) during a strike or lockout. It is hard to save enough in preparation for the strike on flat pay though.

They'll be fine. Besides, guys on year 1 pay will actually be getting a raise on ALPA strike pay.

[RippleRock]

Southwest agreed to a FIFTY PERCENT increase in their new contract.


That's +-70% yes, SEVENTY PERCENT in Canadian dollars if you're doing the math.

Immediate 30% in the first year.....40% Canadian.


"The contract calls for an immediate 29.15% increase in pay rates upon ratification, followed by 4% raises in 2025, 2026, and 2027 and a 3.25% increase in 2028. Cumulatively, that works out to just under 50% over the life of the contract."

“This has been a long time coming and it is only through the unity of our pilot group that we were able to achieve the gains in this contract,” said pilots’ union President Casey Murray. He said the agreement gives pilots “the security and protections that have been long needed.”

UNITY??? Who thought something like that was important??? Like wearing a lanyard when asked??? How many SW pilots did VO? Just asking.
The answer is ALL and ZERO for those not quite getting the picture.



https://apnews.com/article/southwest-ai ... 9940e4b32b

I know you're going to sell yourselves short people, and you don't like being told to do hard things like wear a lanyard of a certain colour, or "enjoy your summer", but please don't make it too embarrassing like they did over at Westjet.

KNOW YOUR WORTH.

[eurotrash]

Been involved in two pilot strikes- both cases had no choice but it isn’t a fun rodeo. This is my fear , hopefully I am wrong. I usually am.

AC will cost the price if giving us whatever it takes to prevent a strike, and also the cost of the likely contract after a strike. They or their consultants know the dynamics of a strike. For the first two weeks we have the upper hand, and then the tides turn. They will then compare that cost differential against the cost of a strike, in $/day. And that is why when we strike is critical. Go out in June and a short strike makes our new gold plated contract look like a bargain. Go out in Feb. and the company is probably saving money - low yields and expensive winter ops. So they can afford to leave us out for a long time and try and break us.

Hence my original question. Thanks for the answers.

Good self awareness

If we don't get massive improvements, we would literally be the ONLY pilot group to not get that

With ACPA at the reins, this outcome was plausible.

With full press & ALPA, not

[flying4dollars]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

Why do you believe that? Also what doesn't make sense? Seems pretty smart to me. The ones with the itchy trigger fingers talk with confusion and impatience like this. I'd guess this post fits the bill. Patience grasshopper. A mediator ensures both sides bargain in good faith. AC cannot drag it's heels and play hardball now. If they do, Kaplan can declare an impasse and we can control the timeline for a summer strike. This puts the due diligence ball in the union's court. If you're a concerned AC pilot, feel free to reach out to a P2P member or anyone in the MEC for clarification. Probably a better source than avcan (even though there is some valid and legit opinion content here).

[Protonpilot]

Those who choose not to prepare for a strike are foolish. ALPA does not tolerate scabs. There is still a "scab list" from a strike in the early 80's down in the States. To this day those guys are banned from many flight deck jumpseats.

A strike or lockout IS coming, it's just a matter of when. Expect as early as August, and as late as November. A LOC for $5000 to $10,000 should get most households through a month, or put off a bigger planned purchase until next fall. The "strike pay" isn't insignificant. Most banks will allow a "interest only" mortgage payment in the event of a strike or lockout. There are plenty of effective ways to mitigate the impact financially. A two week lockout/walkout shouldn't affect families much. The payback will be worth every dime and then some.

Either way, be ready.

You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow professionals.

I agree with you, if you're expecting a strike then you should start preparing now.

I don't expect there to be any opportunity for someone to cross a picket line. If ALPA drops tools, then the airline shuts down. It won't be a reduced schedule, it will be no wheels turning.

What's this "strike pay" you're talking about? Some misunderstanding out there about what ALPA provides from their war chest, and what it can be used for. A good article from the ALPA magazine in 2017 debunks some common myths:

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ai ... /mcf-myths

[Dash.Trash]

Those who choose not to prepare for a strike are foolish. ALPA does not tolerate scabs. There is still a "scab list" from a strike in the early 80's down in the States. To this day those guys are banned from many flight deck jumpseats.

A strike or lockout IS coming, it's just a matter of when. Expect as early as August, and as late as November. A LOC for $5000 to $10,000 should get most households through a month, or put off a bigger planned purchase until next fall. The "strike pay" isn't insignificant. Most banks will allow a "interest only" mortgage payment in the event of a strike or lockout. There are plenty of effective ways to mitigate the impact financially. A two week lockout/walkout shouldn't affect families much. The payback will be worth every dime and then some.

Either way, be ready.

You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow professionals.

I agree with you, if you're expecting a strike then you should start preparing now.

I don't expect there to be any opportunity for someone to cross a picket line. If ALPA drops tools, then the airline shuts down. It won't be a reduced schedule, it will be no wheels turning.

What's this "strike pay" you're talking about? Some misunderstanding out there about what ALPA provides from their war chest, and what it can be used for. A good article from the ALPA magazine in 2017 debunks some common myths:

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ai ... /mcf-myths

IMG_6905.jpeg (1.05 MiB) Viewed 2051 times

IMG_6907.jpeg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 2051 times

$2480 USD/month after 2 weeks on strike.

[hithere]

So is the consensus that AC management blinked here with this agreement to mediation? Or do they have some machiavellian card up their sleeve? I'm sure Calin( rob and fist you) Rovinescu taught Rousseau well(and might still be providing guidance to him for all anyone knows)

[flyingcanuck]

Those who choose not to prepare for a strike are foolish. ALPA does not tolerate scabs. There is still a "scab list" from a strike in the early 80's down in the States. To this day those guys are banned from many flight deck jumpseats.

A strike or lockout IS coming, it's just a matter of when. Expect as early as August, and as late as November. A LOC for $5000 to $10,000 should get most households through a month, or put off a bigger planned purchase until next fall. The "strike pay" isn't insignificant. Most banks will allow a "interest only" mortgage payment in the event of a strike or lockout. There are plenty of effective ways to mitigate the impact financially. A two week lockout/walkout shouldn't affect families much. The payback will be worth every dime and then some.

Either way, be ready.

You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow professionals.

I agree with you, if you're expecting a strike then you should start preparing now.

I don't expect there to be any opportunity for someone to cross a picket line. If ALPA drops tools, then the airline shuts down. It won't be a reduced schedule, it will be no wheels turning.

What's this "strike pay" you're talking about? Some misunderstanding out there about what ALPA provides from their war chest, and what it can be used for. A good article from the ALPA magazine in 2017 debunks some common myths:

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ai ... /mcf-myths

$2480 USD/month after 2 weeks on strike.

So I get a raise if we strike.. nice

[Mountainwave]

How many pilots currently on flat pay?

[itsgrosswhatinet]

So I get a raise if we strike.. nice

Don't count your chickens!
Timing of a strike is everything though. Hopefully it's not until summer of 2025 now.

[flyingcanuck]

How many pilots currently on flat pay?

1600 ish

[flying4dollars]

How many pilots currently on flat pay?

1600 ish

Gotta be more than that. Closer to 2000+ no?

[AirCandida]

Easy to figure out from senority list

[WhataYoke]

Those who choose not to prepare for a strike are foolish. ALPA does not tolerate scabs. There is still a "scab list" from a strike in the early 80's down in the States. To this day those guys are banned from many flight deck jumpseats.

A strike or lockout IS coming, it's just a matter of when. Expect as early as August, and as late as November. A LOC for $5000 to $10,000 should get most households through a month, or put off a bigger planned purchase until next fall. The "strike pay" isn't insignificant. Most banks will allow a "interest only" mortgage payment in the event of a strike or lockout. There are plenty of effective ways to mitigate the impact financially. A two week lockout/walkout shouldn't affect families much. The payback will be worth every dime and then some.

Either way, be ready.

You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow professionals.

I agree with you, if you're expecting a strike then you should start preparing now.

I don't expect there to be any opportunity for someone to cross a picket line. If ALPA drops tools, then the airline shuts down. It won't be a reduced schedule, it will be no wheels turning.

What's this "strike pay" you're talking about? Some misunderstanding out there about what ALPA provides from their war chest, and what it can be used for. A good article from the ALPA magazine in 2017 debunks some common myths:

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ai ... /mcf-myths

IMG_6905.jpegIMG_6907.jpeg


$2480 USD/month after 2 weeks on strike.

Thats great...Every pilot even the senior WB CAs can feel what its like to make a Yr1 flat pay as an AC pilot.

[bcflyer]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

Why do you think it hurts the chance of retro pay?

[Dockjock]

..

[cjp]

Hot take- leadership is flubbing this hard. And their flub is something the employees are all going to wear, because it affects the future performance of the airline and we will be here a lot longer than any of them will. They’ll be replaced and retired. Profit has been juiced with cost cutting, and the lack of response to ALPA’s proposals is merely a continuation of that process. Flight ops remains in a pilot surplus mindset, and are still denying that there is a shortage at all. How long can that bluff last. Are ground schools fully subscribed? Are there still 5000 resumes on file? Do you still need two degrees, a combat tour and 3 shuttle landings to qualify? How many qualified applicants are on file? What has happened to the qualification standard over the last 10 years? It isn’t 2003 anymore. Or 1993, or 1975. Heck it isn’t even 2019. What is the refusal rate on interview offers? Refusing an interview at Air Canada, can you imagine. Common now. Normal, even.

Fleet growth hurdles not met
World airline rank dropped 40 places
No forward financial guidance
Cargo strategy miss
No pilot pipeline
Insufficient training capacity
No recruiting strategy
Highest pilot turnover ever
Industry worst OTP
Lost $17M in gold
IT breach
Regional airline that can’t operate (no pilots)

But all-time record profitability. Expansion is dead. Fleet renewal is replacement only. Stock price is negative over 5 years. Pilots are such a tiny part of the cost puzzle but a some might say fairly critical cog in the operation of a successful airline. Disagree if you want and then look at Delta, United. Now think of the best cost-cutters and look at Boeing. We have a scissor guy and the only thing scissors do is cut. We need someone with a different tool to get this done so this airline can move forward.

Airlines in Canada have historically been able to view pilots as replaceable components with plenty in stock - thus providing favourable pricing in their overall operating model. Only now are they realizing that stock is close to running dry and just like legacy aircraft components, you're going to have to start fighting for the remainder. Those that cannot pay will likely find components that have been around the block a few times and likely don't fit or work as well, while those that can, will get higher quality parts to keep their machines going.

Honestly I'm a little surprised at how the management at Air Canada still thinks it's a solid move to play hardball. One of two options exist:
> They know their pilot group will crumble and continue to do what they have always done which is concede when given crumbs.
> They have no idea who they are up against and are about to payout big.

I really hope it's option 2 guys.

[RippleRock]

Hot take- leadership is flubbing this hard. And their flub is something the employees are all going to wear, because it affects the future performance of the airline and we will be here a lot longer than any of them will. They’ll be replaced and retired. Profit has been juiced with cost cutting, and the lack of response to ALPA’s proposals is merely a continuation of that process. Flight ops remains in a pilot surplus mindset, and are still denying that there is a shortage at all. How long can that bluff last. Are ground schools fully subscribed? Are there still 5000 resumes on file? Do you still need two degrees, a combat tour and 3 shuttle landings to qualify? How many qualified applicants are on file? What has happened to the qualification standard over the last 10 years? It isn’t 2003 anymore. Or 1993, or 1975. Heck it isn’t even 2019. What is the refusal rate on interview offers? Refusing an interview at Air Canada, can you imagine. Common now. Normal, even.

Fleet growth hurdles not met
World airline rank dropped 40 places
No forward financial guidance
Cargo strategy miss
No pilot pipeline
Insufficient training capacity
No recruiting strategy
Highest pilot turnover ever
Industry worst OTP
Lost $17M in gold
IT breach
Regional airline that can’t operate (no pilots)

But all-time record profitability. Expansion is dead. Fleet renewal is replacement only. Stock price is negative over 5 years. Pilots are such a tiny part of the cost puzzle but a some might say fairly critical cog in the operation of a successful airline. Disagree if you want and then look at Delta, United. Now think of the best cost-cutters and look at Boeing. We have a scissor guy and the only thing scissors do is cut. We need someone with a different tool to get this done so this airline can move forward.

Airlines in Canada have historically been able to view pilots as replaceable components with plenty in stock - thus providing favourable pricing in their overall operating model. Only now are they realizing that stock is close to running dry and just like legacy aircraft components, you're going to have to start fighting for the remainder. Those that cannot pay will likely find components that have been around the block a few times and likely don't fit or work as well, while those that can, will get higher quality parts to keep their machines going.

Honestly I'm a little surprised at how the management at Air Canada still thinks it's a solid move to play hardball. One of two options exist:
> They know their pilot group will crumble and continue to do what they have always done which is concede when given crumbs.
> They have no idea who they are up against and are about to payout big.

I really hope it's option 2 guys.

It will pay out big if we make it.

It's going to require Unity and dedication.

No weak links. One solid front.

Value yourself like a Delta pilot or United pilot. Ask yourself WHY you aren't worth as much. You will have no answer. The Company has no answer.

Don't waver.


The shit attitude towards pilots in this country will only change if we do the work to make that change.

The word "hope" should not exist, only "action, or no action". Make your choice, and....


HOLD THE LINE

[Transition9er2]

I’ve been struggling with understanding “why” the company agreed to this mediation piece. It seemed like things were going as per their playbook and they were getting what they wanted, but then agreed to mediation… why?

The only thing I can think of is they played their hand too aggressively and too early in order to save “summer”.

When ALPA presented the option of bringing in Kaplan they essentially hit the reset button in a way. IF the company refused mediation and continued to push us towards an impasse, they would look incredibly bad in the eyes of government when they inevitably would be brought in. They would essentially remove all credibility when they try to push govt into forcing us into an agreement or back to work. So in essence they theoretically had to accept mediation.

The table has been completely reset now, and it’s heavily favoured towards the pilots. The company really only has 3 options:

- Negotiate without delay and get a deal done by June (great option for the pilot group)
- Do the bare minimum to delay a deal post June (significant risk of Kaplan calling them out and declaring an impasse earlier than June. HUGE RISK to damaging summer sched due to strike… great for pilot group)
- Do just enough to keep everyone happy and extend negots beyond June. (Great for pilot group as this would mean changes to the sh!tty contract are likely being made)

As I said, I really struggled with understanding this announcement, but I think I’m looking at this correctly… I think.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m beginning to see more and more signs that the company has been completely caught off guard by ALPA and ALPA is now playing the company’s game back at them, and playing it much better.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I’ve been struggling with understanding “why” the company agreed to this mediation piece. It seemed like things were going as per their playbook and they were getting what they wanted, but then agreed to mediation… why?

The only thing I can think of is they played their hand too aggressively and too early in order to save “summer”.

When ALPA presented the option of bringing in Kaplan they essentially hit the reset button in a way. IF the company refused mediation and continued to push us towards an impasse, they would look incredibly bad in the eyes of government when they inevitably would be brought in. They would essentially remove all credibility when they try to push govt into forcing us into an agreement or back to work. So in essence they theoretically had to accept mediation.

The table has been completely reset now, and it’s heavily favoured towards the pilots. The company really only has 3 options:

- Negotiate without delay and get a deal done by June (great option for the pilot group)
- Do the bare minimum to delay a deal post June (significant risk of Kaplan calling them out and declaring an impasse earlier than June. HUGE RISK to damaging summer sched due to strike… great for pilot group)
- Do just enough to keep everyone happy and extend negots beyond June. (Great for pilot group as this would mean changes to the sh!tty contract are likely being made)

As I said, I really struggled with understanding this announcement, but I think I’m looking at this correctly… I think.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m beginning to see more and more signs that the company has been completely caught off guard by ALPA and ALPA is now playing the company’s game back at them, and playing it much better.

There’s a really great explanation as to the “why” on the other forum.

[Nomel]

Company was forced to meet with Transport Canada last week over the excessive failure rate of new hires & upgrades

TC is under pressure from the govt after the ICAO report that gave Canada a "C" grade for aviation safety. There is deep concern with the way Flight Ops is handling the pilot shortage with lowering minimums without providing any incentives to attract experienced candidates. There are worries of an "international incident" at the nation's flag carrier with low experience at the controls and an "out of touch" leadership at Flight Ops.

Transport considering mandating a 1500 hrs rule themselves (possibly at Jazz for US routes to please concerns from the FAA) and close oversight of the new hire process including TC monitored sim evals on the 767 along with Federal Government standard language testing. Sounds like they may bring in a full time government employee into Flight Ops. They want an "adult in the room"

The Minister of Labour is really upset with the slow progress of pilot negotiations and the reason the company agreed to mediation. They were worried about the optics of going into conciliation without putting forward any real counter proposals while having industry worst OTP

The new "GO" operational metric was the "Olive Branch" to the feds in hopes of pleasing the optically fueled Liberal govt. They are really upset with this Executive Team especially the damaged reputation of the CEO after the bad press of treatment of passengers with disabilities, his very in the public inability to speak French and decision to pay out bonuses after taking government loans with employees laid off

The poor performance of the Executives has led to a loss of interest from investors particularly after cold shoulders at the Dubai airshow in November. There is a real lack of trust in the airline community for dealing with Air Canada's leadership and is the root reason why the airline is unable to secure financing for a much larger widebody order and being forced to resort to the used market

There are further meetings planned where flight ops has been told they need to develop their own training initiatives like other US legacies (like United's Aviate or Delta's Propel) or else face government pressure for a change of leadership. It is believed the Executives will likely make members of Flight Ops their "fall guy"

Government is also deeply concerned about the economic impact of the pilot shortage and loss of GDP with less domestic traffic especially to smaller communities. They want industry led solutions and are not impressed with how Air Canada has handled Jazz.

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[Blueontop]

I’ve been struggling with understanding “why” the company agreed to this mediation piece. It seemed like things were going as per their playbook and they were getting what they wanted, but then agreed to mediation… why?

The only thing I can think of is they played their hand too aggressively and too early in order to save “summer”.

When ALPA presented the option of bringing in Kaplan they essentially hit the reset button in a way. IF the company refused mediation and continued to push us towards an impasse, they would look incredibly bad in the eyes of government when they inevitably would be brought in. They would essentially remove all credibility when they try to push govt into forcing us into an agreement or back to work. So in essence they theoretically had to accept mediation.

The table has been completely reset now, and it’s heavily favoured towards the pilots. The company really only has 3 options:

- Negotiate without delay and get a deal done by June (great option for the pilot group)
- Do the bare minimum to delay a deal post June (significant risk of Kaplan calling them out and declaring an impasse earlier than June. HUGE RISK to damaging summer sched due to strike… great for pilot group)
- Do just enough to keep everyone happy and extend negots beyond June. (Great for pilot group as this would mean changes to the sh!tty contract are likely being made)

As I said, I really struggled with understanding this announcement, but I think I’m looking at this correctly… I think.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m beginning to see more and more signs that the company has been completely caught off guard by ALPA and ALPA is now playing the company’s game back at them, and playing it much better.

There’s a really great explanation as to the “why” on the other forum.

+1 which other forum?