Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

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a2btrail
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Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by a2btrail »

"As previously communicated, the Company and the Association have been in discussions for the past several months, attempting to establish terms and conditions for pilots to remain employed beyond their 65th birthday. We have reached an agreement with the Company. The MEC spent several hours in closed session reviewing the Negotiating Committee’s work on this topic. There are several logistical items to finalize before the document is published. The MEC will have more information to share on this agreement later this month"

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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Why the hell would anyone want to work past 65??
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2112
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by 2112 »

Meanwhile carriers south of the border continually make unprecedented gains, I'm not opposed to flying past 65 but how is this a priority right now?
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

You can see which demographic is making the decisions at jazz.
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lostav8r
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by lostav8r »

2112 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:39 pm Meanwhile carriers south of the border continually make unprecedented gains, I'm not opposed to flying past 65 but how is this a priority right now?
the boomers fucked us on housing, the environment, why not screw us on the last chance we had in the job market?
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cdnavater
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by cdnavater »

2112 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:39 pm Meanwhile carriers south of the border continually make unprecedented gains, I'm not opposed to flying past 65 but how is this a priority right now?
What priority? First, there are already some pilots working past 65 and without the framework of an agreement they are in limbo, second we are not currently in negotiations so it’s not like this is interrupting anything in the grand scheme.
This initiative started because there was a motion in the US to allow pilots to work past 65, the thought was it might go through and we should be prepared for that but in reality other 705 operators are doing this already.
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Inverted2
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:57 pm Why the hell would anyone want to work past 65??
A) Made poor choices in women and now flat piss broke due to alimony payments.

B) Has no life outside flying/unhappy home life. Wears pilot uniform to stores after work.
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Nick678
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Nick678 »

How about working on flow violation or giving our flying to pal? How is this a priority…
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Hangry
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Hangry »

Inverted2 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:12 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:57 pm Why the hell would anyone want to work past 65??
A) Made poor choices in women and now flat piss broke due to alimony payments.

B) Has no life outside flying/unhappy home life. Wears pilot uniform to stores after work.
Absolutely. So sad and pathetic.

They can feel at home with the AR losers at WJ.
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Inverted2
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

Also someone correct me if I’m wrong: If you stay working you can’t collect your pension so you would be leaving behind a 6 figure pension till you retire so you’ll be staying on as a captain and theoretically making a 5 figure income since you aren’t collecting your pension.
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rudder
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:11 am Also someone correct me if I’m wrong: If you stay working you can’t collect your pension so you would be leaving behind a 6 figure pension till you retire so you’ll be staying on as a captain and theoretically making a 5 figure income since you aren’t collecting your pension.
The only pilots retiring to a 6 figure DB pension have 40+ years of credit in that plan. That is a small population of Jazz pilots.

FYI - The US Senate markup committee voted DOWN the proposed age 67 amendment.
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Inverted2
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

Good news! Since the majority of our flying is to the US this will limit their options. I suppose the post 65 gang can do some domestic flying if they want to on the Q or become simulator instructors as well.
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rudder
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

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Nick678
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Nick678 »

I’m still baffled by this, did the majority of the pilot group want this? Did the MEC just take it upon themselves?

Was there time pressure? That’s how they justified no vote on the Sky deal.
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truedude
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by truedude »

Nick678 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:15 pm I’m still baffled by this, did the majority of the pilot group want this? Did the MEC just take it upon themselves?

Was there time pressure? That’s how they justified no vote on the Sky deal.
Would you rather the 10 or 15 guys that are pushing for this go to the labour board and the tribunal rule it must happen and we lose all control? Or would you rather the union find a solution while maintaining control of the situation? Because those were the options.
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Inverted2
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

I could see them being put on the Q400. The E175 is almost all US flying and the RJ is especially out east so probably YMM turns out west and YTS turns out east :? . Some are already doing simulator training which I think is alright.
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rudder
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

There is a practical reality now that the US Senate vetoed a change to Age 67 (which is the single impediment making Age 65+ a challenge for Jazz).

Post Age 65 pilots cannot fly to the US. They cannot transit US airspace when flying between CDN stations. A US alternate cannot be used on a flight plan.

So, for a CDN carrier that flies exclusively domestic - and for the most part well north of the border - accommodating post Age 65 pilots is effectively mandatory as a CHRT challenge would likely be successful (duty to accommodate vs BFOR).

For carriers with mixed flying (Canada-to-Canada and Canada-US) it is a little trickier. It would be a function of the volume of flying that would meet the US requirements. There are several CDN Part 705 carriers operating under this paradigm.

For Jazz, the vast majority of the flying on the E175 and CRJ is transborder. Accommodation for a post Age 65 pilot on these fleet types would be challenging (or impossible). The Q400 is almost exclusively domestic. That would probably be the required Position assignment to accommodate post Age 65.

Of course, there is always SIM. But not CCP A (you would need to be active and current on type).

Apparently there is an LOU. Details pending. Options will be limited.
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truedude
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by truedude »

rudder wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:22 am There is a practical reality now that the US Senate vetoed a change to Age 67 (which is the single impediment making Age 65+ a challenge for Jazz).

Post Age 65 pilots cannot fly to the US. They cannot transit US airspace when flying between CDN stations. A US alternate cannot be used on a flight plan.

So, for a CDN carrier that flies exclusively domestic - and for the most part well north of the border - accommodating post Age 65 pilots is effectively mandatory as a CHRT challenge would likely be successful (duty to accommodate vs BFOR).

For carriers with mixed flying (Canada-to-Canada and Canada-US) it is a little trickier. It would be a function of the volume of flying that would meet the US requirements. There are several CDN Part 705 carriers operating under this paradigm.

For Jazz, the vast majority of the flying on the E175 and CRJ is transborder. Accommodation for a post Age 65 pilot on these fleet types would be challenging (or impossible). The Q400 is almost exclusively domestic. That would probably be the required Position assignment to accommodate post Age 65.

Of course, there is always SIM. But not CCP A (you would need to be active and current on type).

Apparently there is an LOU. Details pending. Options will be limited.
Even the Q out west would be tricky, as SEA is often used as an alternate when weather is down in YVR in the winter. Are we really going to rearrange how everything is flight planned and pairings are built and bid on to accommodate this? I have no issue with then being sim guys, and even create a pseudo ability to be check A guys if they need to occasionally displace line pilots to remain qualified...
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rudder
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

Other areas of the CBA requiring modification for post Age 65:

1. Pension (DB) - to allow for accrual after age 65

2. STD/LTD - are post age 65 pilots allowed to go on disability? For how long?

3. CPP/EI - contributions are mandatory (CPP excepted if employee is receiving CPP benefit)
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rudder
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

rudder wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:42 am Other areas of the CBA requiring modification for post Age 65:

1. Pension (DB) - to allow for accrual after age 65

2. STD/LTD - are post age 65 pilots allowed to go on disability? For how long?

3. CPP/EI - contributions are mandatory (CPP excepted if employee is receiving CPP benefit)
Turned out pretty well the way I described.

Restricted bidding rights (Position and Schedule).

No disability post Age 65.

DB pension accrual.
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Inverted2
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

Well thank goodness no STD/LTD past 65. I wouldn't want to see the benefit premiums if that were to occur.
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

Both the employer and the JAZ MEC are betting this LOU will withstand a CHRT challenge.

I am not convinced. It is very narrow. Perhaps too narrow.
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by Inverted2 »

rudder wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 3:21 pm Both the employer and the JAZ MEC are betting this LOU will withstand a CHRT challenge.

I am not convinced. It is very narrow. Perhaps too narrow.
What do you mean? Almost all of our flying is to the US in the east. If they can’t legally fly there what’s the company supposed to do? There’s still Q400 spots available so they’ll remain employed if they want.
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:20 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 3:21 pm Both the employer and the JAZ MEC are betting this LOU will withstand a CHRT challenge.

I am not convinced. It is very narrow. Perhaps too narrow.
What do you mean? Almost all of our flying is to the US in the east. If they can’t legally fly there what’s the company supposed to do? There’s still Q400 spots available so they’ll remain employed if they want.
Training pilots. They are part of the bargaining unit.

There is no regulatory requirement for currency (CCP A excepted).

Jazz is proposing that some training pilots (equipment specific) are eligible under the AR LOU. Others are not. But they can be terminated and come back under the post-retirement provisions of the CBA.

That looks like (age based) discrimination. Arbitrary. Inconsistent.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Pilot Employment Beyond Age 65

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Sounds fun.

I love a good public court tribunal with everyone’s laundry aired out on the clothes’ line. People wanna work past 65… all the power to you. And yea, you probably won’t be occupying a front desk seat.
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