New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

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JungleRiot
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New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by JungleRiot »

Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
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fish4life
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by fish4life »

JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
AC and WJ would probably sign on the dotted line tomorrow for those wages +10% if they could get the working conditions as well
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Me262
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Me262 »

fish4life wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:03 am
JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
AC and WJ would probably sign on the dotted line tomorrow for those wages +10% if they could get the working conditions as well
I bet they will drag for as long as possible hoping flare goes bankrupt/economy goes in the shitter before they have to commit to those increases.
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Blackdog0301
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Blackdog0301 »

JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
Sorry, but there's way more to it than that. If it was really that great, it would have had a higher yes vote than 64%. AC and WJ aren't thinking about this wondering how to do better... In fact, they're probably jealous because their pilot groups would never accept that pile of garbage. Share the rest of the language... I dare you.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Didn't Flair pilots agree to a cut in MMG along with the hourly increase? Plus agreed to being worked into the ground for 4 months of the year?
It's a bit like the Encore pilots currently voting on their TA which increases their hourly rate slightly, but cuts their WSP from 10% to 4%.
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khedrei
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by khedrei »

Cutting the MMG and still getting a huge raise is a win not a loss. It means you don't have to work as much to get the annual wage they are advertising. The one from two years ago was advertised as a huge raise but it was miniscule when you saw how much extra you had to work for it.

The rest of the language... 4 months of more work, etc, is a different story.

If you're gonna tell a story, tell the whole thing. Get all the bad stuff out in the open, just don't try to disguise the positives as if they are negatives because of other negatives.
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vanislepilot
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by vanislepilot »

How could you possibly call this a win in this economy?
FO tops out at 100k USD? Wow. You’ll get to see what it’s like to be 22 year old FO starting at Jetblue. Just kidding, they take home way more than you (Freaking tax)

Still can’t even start at 100K CAD as an airline pilot. Plus the OT is straight time i’ve heard. They will probably save money with this contract!
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Michel Myers
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Michel Myers »

vanislepilot wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:47 pm How could you possibly call this a win in this economy?
FO tops out at 100k USD? Wow. You’ll get to see what it’s like to be 22 year old FO starting at Jetblue. Just kidding, they take home way more than you (Freaking tax)

Still can’t even start at 100K CAD as an airline pilot. Plus the OT is straight time i’ve heard. They will probably save money with this contract!
OT isn’t straight time despite what “you’ve heard” the trolls on this forum never fail to entertain :lol:
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Hysteria
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Hysteria »

Michel Myers wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:13 pm
vanislepilot wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:47 pm How could you possibly call this a win in this economy?
FO tops out at 100k USD? Wow. You’ll get to see what it’s like to be 22 year old FO starting at Jetblue. Just kidding, they take home way more than you (Freaking tax)

Still can’t even start at 100K CAD as an airline pilot. Plus the OT is straight time i’ve heard. They will probably save money with this contract!
OT isn’t straight time despite what “you’ve heard” the trolls on this forum never fail to entertain :lol:
Canadian pay is shit. End of story.
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RippleRock
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by RippleRock »

JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
AC ALPA had better not be using the "least desirable LCC pilot job in Canada" as wage metric, nor a metric for anything else. $100k usd is nothing in this economic climate. The Flair Captain top scale is barely higher than AC now, which is the absolute "worst of the worst" compared to other Legacy airlines in North America. Less than $300 an hour as the "top wage"....."sometime down the road" is nothing to crow about.

The AC ALPA MEC is asking us to wear a "World Class Contract" lanyard. They had better not pass --anything-- across the table for a vote that isn't a WC standard. No excuses, especially "...that's what Flair pays...." Who?


My intent is not to offend anyone, but as long as Canadian pilots continue to accept garbage wages, and claim they are the "best", I will absolutely offend some with my opinion on that. The "best" of a substandard group is still substandard.



BTW, when the COL rises at 3-4% EVERY YEAR. 3% is never an "increase". It's a DECREASE.
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khedrei
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by khedrei »

When I said the 75 MMG was a win I simply meant that it was not a pay cut and that it was better than a higher MMG for only slightly more money and not to say it's a bad thing simply because there are other bad parts of the contract. The 75 MMG is good, the other stuff is up for debate.

I agree the wages still need to be higher in this economy but I dont understand how people come here saying AC pilots are too smart to vote for that crap. Flairs new starting pay is 65% higher than AC. There had better be some pretty spectacular working conditions to offset that pay gap. I get that people are there for the long game but holy crap. King air FOs up north start higher than that. Their starting pay is almost literally the worst in the country for any carrier, any type of service, on any machine. And they are "Canada's National Carrier".

I'd be surprised if they even raised starting wages in the next contract. Why would they have to. People still flock there in droves. They have a stack of resumes a mile high. I'm sure they know that they could keep starting pay low and people will still line up for the long game.

Say what you want about flair. What they are doing is helping everyone. That, and an FO at flair hiring on today will be able to afford to save a down payment and buy a home in 5 years while the guy at AC will still be eating KD.
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Aviator12
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Aviator12 »

Gotta look at the whole package. Lots of extras to take into account then just hourly pay. I don’t know what flairs total package is but for example as a first/second year Westjet FO T4 was 104K. Another 13k tax free per diem on top of that. That includes a couple days of OT approx 3k
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cjp
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by cjp »

Me262 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:45 am
fish4life wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:03 am
JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
AC and WJ would probably sign on the dotted line tomorrow for those wages +10% if they could get the working conditions as well
I bet they will drag for as long as possible hoping flare goes bankrupt/economy goes in the shitter before they have to commit to those increases.
Is that what's considered as a "world class contract"? That would make the AC pilot group a laughing stock. If that we're the case, plug back into the matrix, burn the lanyards, vote out ALPA and head back to 2013 with ACPA.

AC guys are likely preparing their reasoning for how the industry is holding them back from negotiations anyways.

The amount of excuses in the AC forum about how they just have to settle cause nothing good is coming or that some major things have already been negotiated, so everything else can be conceded is so incredibly embarrassing for that flight group. I am praying its just the minority posting on here. It feels that the fight is totally gone over there and it's been less than 6 months. The funny thing is hearing how interviewing pilots are using the few agreed points as actual 'we got it' selling features.

You've got nothing so far.
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Last edited by cjp on Fri May 03, 2024 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheLastonetoknow
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by TheLastonetoknow »

Aviator12 wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 5:20 am Gotta look at the whole package. Lots of extras to take into account then just hourly pay. I don’t know what flairs total package is but for example as a first/second year Westjet FO T4 was 104K. Another 13k tax free per diem on top of that. That includes a couple days of OT approx 3k
To proper clarify and clear up the many years of misconception the take home would be 104k plus any OT worked in this example. Period. Per-diem are not income. It is meal cost replacement for being away from domicile. Period. I know it was on the slides for the roadshow.

Now, if someone wants to bank it and eat garbage food, then the paycheque is inadequate. Working OT as needed we all do from time to time and it’s not a crutch either.

Pay a pilots worth and get a world class contract.
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ant_321
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by ant_321 »

TheLastonetoknow wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:41 am
Aviator12 wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 5:20 am Gotta look at the whole package. Lots of extras to take into account then just hourly pay. I don’t know what flairs total package is but for example as a first/second year Westjet FO T4 was 104K. Another 13k tax free per diem on top of that. That includes a couple days of OT approx 3k
To proper clarify and clear up the many years of misconception the take home would be 104k plus any OT worked in this example. Period. Per-diem are not income. It is meal cost replacement for being away from domicile. Period. I know it was on the slides for the roadshow.

Now, if someone wants to bank it and eat garbage food, then the paycheque is inadequate. Working OT as needed we all do from time to time and it’s not a crutch either.

Pay a pilots worth and get a world class contract.
Thank you for posting that. My biggest pet peeve is people talking about their per diem. SWG per diem is significantly higher than Westjet and I spend pretty much every penny, sometimes more. It gives a good indication of how poor the salaries are if people are trying to pack food from home or doing take away from the free breakfast to try to save some of their per diem.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

ant_321 wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:12 am
TheLastonetoknow wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:41 am
Aviator12 wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 5:20 am Gotta look at the whole package. Lots of extras to take into account then just hourly pay. I don’t know what flairs total package is but for example as a first/second year Westjet FO T4 was 104K. Another 13k tax free per diem on top of that. That includes a couple days of OT approx 3k
To proper clarify and clear up the many years of misconception the take home would be 104k plus any OT worked in this example. Period. Per-diem are not income. It is meal cost replacement for being away from domicile. Period. I know it was on the slides for the roadshow.

Now, if someone wants to bank it and eat garbage food, then the paycheque is inadequate. Working OT as needed we all do from time to time and it’s not a crutch either.

Pay a pilots worth and get a world class contract.
Thank you for posting that. My biggest pet peeve is people talking about their per diem. SWG per diem is significantly higher than Westjet and I spend pretty much every penny, sometimes more. It gives a good indication of how poor the salaries are if people are trying to pack food from home or doing take away from the free breakfast to try to save some of their per diem.
Totally agree. Per diems are not income. They’re to eat on the road. To make matters worst at WJ, the US is not considered the US unless you’re in Hawaii. Everywhere else on the continent you’re paid the Canadian per diem. Certainly doesn’t go far and you’re always out of pocket, especially with crew meals not existing here.
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ant_321
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by ant_321 »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:29 am
ant_321 wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:12 am
TheLastonetoknow wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:41 am

To proper clarify and clear up the many years of misconception the take home would be 104k plus any OT worked in this example. Period. Per-diem are not income. It is meal cost replacement for being away from domicile. Period. I know it was on the slides for the roadshow.

Now, if someone wants to bank it and eat garbage food, then the paycheque is inadequate. Working OT as needed we all do from time to time and it’s not a crutch either.

Pay a pilots worth and get a world class contract.
Thank you for posting that. My biggest pet peeve is people talking about their per diem. SWG per diem is significantly higher than Westjet and I spend pretty much every penny, sometimes more. It gives a good indication of how poor the salaries are if people are trying to pack food from home or doing take away from the free breakfast to try to save some of their per diem.
Totally agree. Per diems are not income. They’re to eat on the road. To make matters worst at WJ, the US is not considered the US unless you’re in Hawaii. Everywhere else on the continent you’re paid the Canadian per diem. Certainly doesn’t go far and you’re always out of pocket, especially with crew meals not existing here.
For sure. There are plenty of deficiencies in the Sunwing contract but one good thing is the per diem rate. We use the government of Canada’s published rate. Changes every quarter. For Canada now it’s about $130/day but is different for every country. They are usually pretty generous rates. I did training in Prague last year and it was about $250 CAD/day.
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by co-joe »

RippleRock wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 5:34 am
JungleRiot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:54 am Effective May 1st, 2024. Plus 3% increase on Jan 1st, 2025. Gives something AC and WJ management something to think about next upcoming negotiations....
AC ALPA had better not be using the "least desirable LCC pilot job in Canada" as wage metric, nor a metric for anything else. $100k usd is nothing in this economic climate. The Flair Captain top scale is barely higher than AC now, which is the absolute "worst of the worst" compared to other Legacy airlines in North America. Less than $300 an hour as the "top wage"....."sometime down the road" is nothing to crow about.

The AC ALPA MEC is asking us to wear a "World Class Contract" lanyard. They had better not pass --anything-- across the table for a vote that isn't a WC standard. No excuses, especially "...that's what Flair pays...." Who?


My intent is not to offend anyone, but as long as Canadian pilots continue to accept garbage wages, and claim they are the "best", I will absolutely offend some with my opinion on that. The "best" of a substandard group is still substandard.



BTW, when the COL rises at 3-4% EVERY YEAR. 3% is never an "increase". It's a DECREASE.
Ha ha ha, we're the only ULCC in Canada, so by your rational, we're also the most desirable ULCC in the country.
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Aviator12
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Aviator12 »

Thank you for posting that. My biggest pet peeve is people talking about their per diem. SWG per diem is significantly higher than Westjet and I spend pretty much every penny, sometimes more. It gives a good indication of how poor the salaries are if people are trying to pack food from home or doing take away from the free breakfast to try to save some of their per diem
I don’t need to eat a $100 steak every night. I usually pack meals for the first day or two and eat out the rest. If my salary was a million dollars a year I would still do the same and pocket the rest of my per diems. An extra $1200-$1500 per month tax free is a nice bonus. I use it to finance my hobbies like putting gas in my private aircraft. Don’t need to blow it all on food. To each their own tho.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

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Another round of executives leaving. How are any pilots left still? Couldn’t be more obvious what’s about to happen.
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flyinhigh
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by flyinhigh »

changes in the strategic direction, but also the way we work and who we work with.

Sounds like a reckoning is coming. Something the likes of everyone here has been saying for quite awhile now.
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rudder
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by rudder »

Moving on to a new chapter? Likely Chapter 11 followed by Chapter 7 (USA). In Canada, CCAA.

Only 1 airline in the news with these type of announcements. The ultimate announcement will come as no surprise.

Best of luck to the Flair pilots. Nobody wishes ill but see the world as it is, not as how some would paint it. The only one looking out for you is…… you.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

It says reach out to him if any concerns. If I was at flair, I’d be direct emailing him…. Tout de suite.
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TheStig
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by TheStig »

What a weird and distressing way to phrase a message to staff regarding the departure of two Executives. Like a parent poorly explaining their divorce to their children.
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digits_
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Re: New Flair payscle, highest starting rate in the country

Post by digits_ »

TheStig wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:23 pm Like a parent poorly explaining their divorce to their children.
Explaining a divorce to your child in the style of...

- Flair: "Honey, mommy is leaving daddy. Here's 5 dollars, go to the store and buy yourself some sweets. The house may or may not be here by the time you get back."

- Encore: "Honey, mommy and daddy are not getting a divorce, because mommy shot daddy. And if you cry about it, I will kill myself."

- WestJet: "Honey, mommy and daddy are breaking up. Here's a pony to make you feel better. I bought it with your college fund."

- Jazz: "Honey, daddy is leaving us, but don't worry, I will never leave you. Never. Ever. I'll make sure nobody else will ever love you. Stay with mommy."

- Air Canada: "Honey, no, we're not really getting a divorce. I mean, daddy left the house years ago, but as long as he's not married to someone else it's not really a divorce. No she's just a friend. Anyway, can you help mommy by doing the dishes? Taking out the trash would be nice as well. Maybe vacuum the house while you're at it? Love you."

- Sunwing: "Honey, mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. But don't worry, we found a new set of parents for you! Now play nice with your 1500 new brothers and sisters."
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