Reasons to come to Air Canada (… or not)

[Canadianpilot2024]

Hello everyone,

As someone who has started working at Air Canada post Covid, I thought it would be beneficial for future aspiring Air Canada pilots to have a clear picture of what to expect vs what you think you'd expect working for a legacy carrier, or the self proclaimed “NHL of Canadian Airlines”

Pro’s:
- Job security, federally supported
- The ability to bid wide body (87 out of 234 of AC’s fleet is WB, with 22 more on order)
- 2-3 years to upgrade on the narrow body
- health benefits paid for by AC
- the prestige of working for the national carrier
- telling your family and friends you work for Air Canada
- lots of hiring planned still. Lots of rumours out there but another 800 or so seems to be the most conservative with some saying 9000 pilots by 2030
- long stay layover’s can be quite enjoyable
- HUD’s
- Pension
- Pre assignments for reserve can happen 48 hours prior
- Really great pilots to fly with
- in flight meals, not great quality but can be seen as a perk
- 10 buddy passes a year for non confirmed travel
- 10 and 15 percent discount codes (limited amount) for friends and family to use for confirmed travel

Cons:
- flat pay for the first 4 years, take home currently is about $4000 a month. It varies depending on per diems etc.
- no commuting policy
- most flights for a commuter via standby through AC are sold out, but there are other options such as WJ
- Vacation pay is 3 credit per day, and they will try to sandwich your flying on a vacation month in your remaining working days
- everyone on a block seems to be working 16 days a month
- reserve holders are scheduled for 18 days per month, and right now are working about 80 percent of those days (for narrow-body at least)
- The RAP program, you will be preassigned your reserve flying days the previous month but wont be assigned the reserve duty times or pre assigned flights until the last day of your previous reserve block. Makes it’s impossible to plan anything on reserve days. You can be given a 3 am to 7 pm reserve block 48 hours before or a 4 day pairing in toronto… anything is possible
- best fit reserve. They don’t take your seniority into account, and just spread the reserve flying hours to everyone equally (from my understanding)
- AC’s sops are blended with Boeing and Airbus, making them seem very clunky and difficult to make sense of at times
- The bidding software seems like it operates off windows 95 somehow
- The aeronet portal is a headache to navigate through and is constantly asking you to authenticate and log in and is poorly laid out
- Training events ie recurrent sims, don’t count towards your days worked in a month and will be tacked on your block
- AC seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel with everything they do, they have non industry standard acronyms and terms for almost everything
- Hats should be optional and the uniform could be improved
- Poor leadership from the top brass, seems to be quite the disconnect between pilots and management. I compare it to a dysfunctional marriage
- Not a fun place to work, gate agents and even some flight attendants seem to look down on pilots. However I say most can be really great as well.
- The payment structure requires an accounting degree to understand
- High probability that you will be assigned a yyz base to start, but you can do a base transfer if/when a position opens up
- You are limited to how many equipment changes you can do in your career which is 5 i believe. (NB fo, NB captain, WB fo, WB captain, wildcard)
- medical benefits aren’t what you’d expect. They are ok.
- Your travel companion can only fly domestically on Air Canada. ie, no travel benefits for companions domestically with WJ, porter, etc.
- Probation is about 16 months long, some guys who were furloughed in 2020 were on probation for about 3.5 years
- Guys who were furloughed also didn’t retain their years of service based on date of hire
- Different schedules than your flight attendants, hard to build a rapport with your crew.
- incredibly inefficient pairings
- Lot’s of deadheading ie they will deadhead you from Vancouver to PVR to have you operate a PVR to YYZ flight, then deadhead you back to Vancouver
- No incentive to do high credit flying as you will work the 16/18 days a month regardless unless you are senior
- You need to expense all your expenses ie per diems, etc while in training
- You are required to call in and get released from reserve, even if you just completed a 4 day pairing
- Quick upgrade times to Captain on NB, but you won’t have a decent schedule for at least 6-10 years (depending on base)
- crew sched has and is exercising draft and go for block holders. Ie they will schedule you for a calgary turn at night and then change the pairing last minute to a red eye instead. Some guys will file for fatigue and be deducted/penalized pay until proven otherwise
- crew sked is cold calling pilots on GDO’s daily for voluntary overtime, some getting calls as early as 4 am on their days off with the only option to opt out of it to is to put your ringer on silent
-85 hours before you can starting earning overtime, doesn’t matter if you work on a GDO or not (from my understanding)
- You must accompany anyone you issue a buddy pass to, and buddy passes are unconfirmed seating; however if you are operating and want your buddy to join you on a layover that isn’t accepted as you must be in the back with your buddy

If I missed anything, please feel free to add to the lists and I can update accordingly.

I just wish I had a better understanding of what I was getting myself into before leaving to come to Air Canada. Hopefully guys considering coming to AC have a better idea of what to expect vs just a pay cut.

That being said, I have high hopes for this new contract and expect some big improvements. Will it be enough for myself and my peers to stick around.. we will see.

[lownslow]

I’m not disputing the following at all, just expanding:

- flat pay for the first 4 years, take home currently is about $4000 a month.

A new hire who is established in life (house, spouse, kids, etc.) will often find themselves in a race between getting off flat pay and having to take drastic measures to maintain that established life. It’s awful and I don’t wish it on anyone. If you’re single and live in your parents’ basement for free, it’s easy street.

- no commuting policy
- most flights for a commuter via standby through AC are sold out, but there are other options such as WJ

Yep.

- Vacation pay is 3 credit per day, and they will try to sandwich your flying on a vacation month in your remaining working days

Yeah work sixteen days a month normally, or take seven days vacation and work thirteen. Figure that one out.

- everyone on a block seems to be working 16 days a month

I spoke with seniority #1 on my fleet and even he doesn’t get the schedule he bids until he makes them manually change it.

- reserve holders are scheduled for 18 days per month, and right now are working about 80 percent of those days (for narrow-body at least)
- The RAP program, you will be preassigned your reserve flying days the previous month but wont be assigned the reserve duty times or pre assigned flights until the last day of your previous reserve block. Makes it’s impossible to plan anything on reserve days. You can be given a 3 am to 7 pm reserve block 48 hours before or a 4 day pairing in toronto… anything is possible
- best fit reserve. They don’t take your seniority into account, and just spread the reserve flying hours to everyone equally

There’s nothing I like about the current reserve system and I actually want to fly.

- Training events ie recurrent sims, don’t count towards your days worked in a month. So if on reserve could work up to 20 days a month

It can be worse, you can also have your medical and annual recurrent groundschool in the same month.

- Not a fun place to work, gate agents and even some flight directors seem to look down on pilots.

Just FOs, in my experience. I wish I were joking.

- Quick upgrade times to Captain on NB, but you won’t have a decent schedule for at least 6-10 years (depending on base)

This is entirely driven by hiring. I expect this upgrade rate will start slowing down soon but I’m not a real analyst.

Anyways, it’s a job and IMO no more special than any other 705 scheduled jet job in the country. Maybe it was before but I missed it. Eventually it pays a bunch but getting there costs a bunch so weigh out your decisions accordingly.

[kiaszceski]

Hopefully, the next contract will address most of those.

You guys have an internal medical to pass each year?

[jpilot77]

Hopefully, the next contract will address most of those.

You guys have an internal medical to pass each year?

Yes our medicals are done by AC doctors.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Long stay layovers can be quite enjoyable. But they can be awful too. I'd like to get away from the narrative that being away from home is some kind of benefit.




It sounds like WestJet could shut down AC by simply stopping AC pilots from commuting on their planes.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Just FOs, in my experience. I wish I were joking.

Same thing happened to me as a new FO. Bullied and cursed at by a service director.

[Turboprops]

I don’t know if I’d be so optimistic about the hiring/upgrades…
Didn’t AC cancel their March gs because they want bigger and less frequent classes? And then one ground school last month only had 18 new hires?

Anyway, those 2022 hires are able to upgrade because AC hired 2000 pilots after them in the last 2 years, is AC hiring another 2000 in the next 2 years? Look at airlines south of the border, I wouldn’t be so sure. Plus AC now has the young seniority list problem like WJ, it’s gotta be 1000-1500 pilots out of those 2000 that’s younger than 35.

Also…those 2 year upgrade is mainly YYZ on the A220 no? A friend got hired summer last year for YVR max and has less than 20 pilots below him, he’s not upgrading in 2-3 years as you claimed. Heck isn’t the most Junior YVR 737 CA around the 4 year mark to begin with?

[jpilot77]

I don’t know if I’d be so optimistic about the hiring/upgrades…
Didn’t AC cancel their March gs because they want bigger and less frequent classes? And then one ground school last month only had 18 new hires?

Anyway, those 2022 hires are able to upgrade because AC hired 2000 pilots after them in the last 2 years, is AC hiring another 2000 in the next 2 years? Look at airlines south of the border, I wouldn’t be so sure. Plus AC now has the young seniority list problem like WJ, it’s gotta be 1000-1500 pilots out of those 2000 that’s younger than 35.

Also…those 2 year upgrade is mainly YYZ on the A220 no? A friend got hired summer last year for YVR max and has less than 20 pilots below him, he’s not upgrading in 2-3 years as you claimed. Heck isn’t the most Junior YVR 737 CA around the 4 year mark to begin with?

It’s not that they are trying to slow hiring, the candidates that are left that’ll come to AC for the flat pay is drying up. If the new contract starts at 100k the hiring will resume. We planes coming and AC has always run very lean.

[Turboprops]

I don’t know if I’d be so optimistic about the hiring/upgrades…
Didn’t AC cancel their March gs because they want bigger and less frequent classes? And then one ground school last month only had 18 new hires?

Anyway, those 2022 hires are able to upgrade because AC hired 2000 pilots after them in the last 2 years, is AC hiring another 2000 in the next 2 years? Look at airlines south of the border, I wouldn’t be so sure. Plus AC now has the young seniority list problem like WJ, it’s gotta be 1000-1500 pilots out of those 2000 that’s younger than 35.

Also…those 2 year upgrade is mainly YYZ on the A220 no? A friend got hired summer last year for YVR max and has less than 20 pilots below him, he’s not upgrading in 2-3 years as you claimed. Heck isn’t the most Junior YVR 737 CA around the 4 year mark to begin with?

It’s not that they are trying to slow hiring, the candidates that are left that’ll come to AC for the flat pay is drying up. If the new contract starts at 100k the hiring will resume. We planes coming and AC has always run very lean.

Sure but when are you getting a new contract? By the end of the year? So…not really hiring 800 this year if hiring doesn’t ramp up till say Oct/Nov? With every US major reduced/stopped hiring, I’m just saying I wouldn’t be so optimistic about the near term future if I’m looking to join AC in the next little while

[goingnowherefast]

Long stay layovers can be quite enjoyable. But they can be awful too. I'd like to get away from the narrative that being away from home is some kind of benefit.

Where did this even start? I mean it's great to abandon my family for days and wander around some exotic city alone and terribly jetlagged. Just what everyone dreams of.

I'll call "being away from home" a benefit when it's a 10-day layover, and they provide confirmed tickets for friends and family that I want to bring with me.

[Canadaflyer46]

I stopped taking the post seriously when you listed ‘HUDS’ as a reason to join.
Only people that can go to AC are those living in their parents basement, or those ready to get into some serious debt just trying to afford to live. For everyone else it’s a hard no.

[Old fella]

From someone on the outside with no airline affiliation whatsoever, this thread just confirms the old adage - there is no such thing as perfection in any endeavour, industry , Job description. Never was, not now and never will be. Hell, I have been retired from this industry called aviation and although retirement is great,positive, it certainly isn’t perfect, far from it. I could bullet list pro/cons and surprisingly those list would be equal.

[thepoors]

I don’t know if I’d be so optimistic about the hiring/upgrades…
Didn’t AC cancel their March gs because they want bigger and less frequent classes? And then one ground school last month only had 18 new hires?

Anyway, those 2022 hires are able to upgrade because AC hired 2000 pilots after them in the last 2 years, is AC hiring another 2000 in the next 2 years? Look at airlines south of the border, I wouldn’t be so sure. Plus AC now has the young seniority list problem like WJ, it’s gotta be 1000-1500 pilots out of those 2000 that’s younger than 35.

Also…those 2 year upgrade is mainly YYZ on the A220 no? A friend got hired summer last year for YVR max and has less than 20 pilots below him, he’s not upgrading in 2-3 years as you claimed. Heck isn’t the most Junior YVR 737 CA around the 4 year mark to begin with?

It’s not that they are trying to slow hiring, the candidates that are left that’ll come to AC for the flat pay is drying up. If the new contract starts at 100k the hiring will resume. We planes coming and AC has always run very lean.

This is correct. Look at the amount of people that were willing to come to AC on flat pay, imagine the numbers if we get a decent contract.

The issue right now is the list of qualified people willing to take a 100-150% pay cut has mostly dried up. With the contract just around the corner most are willing to wait and see. I hear many are interviewing and then deferring.

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

[jpilot77]

I don’t know if I’d be so optimistic about the hiring/upgrades…
Didn’t AC cancel their March gs because they want bigger and less frequent classes? And then one ground school last month only had 18 new hires?

Anyway, those 2022 hires are able to upgrade because AC hired 2000 pilots after them in the last 2 years, is AC hiring another 2000 in the next 2 years? Look at airlines south of the border, I wouldn’t be so sure. Plus AC now has the young seniority list problem like WJ, it’s gotta be 1000-1500 pilots out of those 2000 that’s younger than 35.

Also…those 2 year upgrade is mainly YYZ on the A220 no? A friend got hired summer last year for YVR max and has less than 20 pilots below him, he’s not upgrading in 2-3 years as you claimed. Heck isn’t the most Junior YVR 737 CA around the 4 year mark to begin with?

It’s not that they are trying to slow hiring, the candidates that are left that’ll come to AC for the flat pay is drying up. If the new contract starts at 100k the hiring will resume. We planes coming and AC has always run very lean.

This is correct. Look at the amount of people that were willing to come to AC on flat pay, imagine the numbers if we get a decent contract.

The issue right now is the list of qualified people willing to take a 100-150% pay cut has mostly dried up. With the contract just around the corner most are willing to wait and see. I hear many are interviewing and then deferring.

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

The other thing is with the way commercial is wanting to expand I don’t think they will be retiring much (maybe some of the old 330s) until they either announce a 350 order or a 777x order.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

The issue right now is the list of qualified people willing to take a 100-150% pay cut has mostly dried up. With the contract just around the corner most are willing to wait and see. I hear many are interviewing and then deferring.

Let's remember this if the company asks us to sacrifice gains to fix flat pay. They need flat pay gone too.

[N181CS]

Why do so many people hate on “flat pay”? Flat pay is not the problem, it’s the amount they pay that’s the issue. Your initial pay should not be based on luck of the draw. You draw a 220 and buddy next to you gets the 777 on day one and makes a pile more. Type pay is actually stupid, what is actually different up front. V1 rotate positive rate…. Your not any more or any less response because of how many people your bus can seat. It should be you are a captain or a first officer that’s it that’s all.

[C-GGGQ]

Yes most airlines in the US have “flat” pay but its first year and its 100ish for everybody.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Sorry I meant low flat pay. I should of clarified I'm not against high flat pay.

[dontcallmeshirley]

It sounds like WestJet could shut down AC by simply stopping AC pilots from commuting on their planes.

Please don't give them the idea.

[co-joe]

...



It sounds like WestJet could shut down AC by simply stopping AC pilots from commuting on their planes.

WestJet is the only company in the world that I know of that weaponizes jumpseat travel. Their management has no class.

[thepoors]

It’s not that they are trying to slow hiring, the candidates that are left that’ll come to AC for the flat pay is drying up. If the new contract starts at 100k the hiring will resume. We planes coming and AC has always run very lean.

This is correct. Look at the amount of people that were willing to come to AC on flat pay, imagine the numbers if we get a decent contract.

The issue right now is the list of qualified people willing to take a 100-150% pay cut has mostly dried up. With the contract just around the corner most are willing to wait and see. I hear many are interviewing and then deferring.

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

The other thing is with the way commercial is wanting to expand I don’t think they will be retiring much (maybe some of the old 330s) until they either announce a 350 order or a 777x order.

Yep 330s will probably go, but they are spending huge money updating cabins of the 319/320/321 fleet so those aren't going anywhere soon.

[rookiepilot]

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

How many fins are down, and why?

[Tbayer2021]

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

How many fins are down, and why?

I believe at least 7? And it's due to engine issues with the PW GTF. Affecting everyone operating the 220, 320neo with PW engines and the E2. Air transat also has a bunch of 320s grounded for the same issue.

[thepoors]

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

How many fins are down, and why?

I believe at least 7? And it's due to engine issues with the PW GTF. Affecting everyone operating the 220, 320neo with PW engines and the E2. Air transat also has a bunch of 320s grounded for the same issue.

I think it's 8 now, and expecting 12 down by the end of the year. So 1/3 of the 220 fleet.

[bcflyer]

Just FOs, in my experience. I wish I were joking.

Same thing happened to me as a new FO. Bullied and cursed at by a service director.

I’m assuming you reported them?