I'm wondering if there was a moment in the past few weeks where WJ management was threatening the AMEs with 'all our maintenance will be done by Encore' while at the same time Encore management was threatening the Encore pilots with 'all our flying will be done by WestJet'?Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:10 am The pilots agreed to binding arbitration for CA1, not knowing how hard Kaplan was going to @#$! us.
As for being forced into it, I sure hope not. These guys need a solid contract. According to an ALPA email this week we currently have THREE TIMES the MELs that we did on the same time period a year ago. Now imagine how much worse morale will be with a subpar agreement forced down their throats. They’ll be leaving in droves.
WestJet has treated them appallingly throughout this entire process. I hope they’re about to get a firm punch on the mouth from an employee group finally. It’s long overdue.
AMEs Done
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Re: AMEs Done
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: AMEs Done
Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:10 am The pilots agreed to binding arbitration for CA1, not knowing how hard Kaplan was going to @#$! us.
As for being forced into it, I sure hope not. These guys need a solid contract. According to an ALPA email this week we currently have THREE TIMES the MELs that we did on the same time period a year ago. Now imagine how much worse morale will be with a subpar agreement forced down their throats. They’ll be leaving in droves.
WestJet has treated them appallingly throughout this entire process. I hope they’re about to get a firm punch on the mouth from an employee group finally. It’s long overdue.
Looks like binding arbitration can be imposed for a first CBA. At least as far as I understand the document below, although there may be newer legislation that supersedes this?
C. Binding Arbitration and Settlement of First Agreements – Section 80
Binding arbitration may be imposed on parties that are required to enter into a
first contract but have failed to do so. Section 80 of the Code grants the Minister of Labour the
power to refer any dispute concerning negotiations for a first collective agreement to the Canada
Industrial Relations Board for a determination. The Board, if it considers it appropriate, may
settle the terms of a collective agreement, effectively imposing a first collective agreement on the
parties. Where the Board does so, the agreement is effective for a two-year period. The parties
may subsequently amend the terms of the agreement in writing during the two-year period.
The Board exercises the power to impose terms of settlement on the parties
sparingly. It has held that imposing a collective agreement is done only in exceptional
circumstances.(9)
It has imposed agreements in situations where the negotiation process has
broken down irreconcilably or where there is evidence of significant bad faith on the part of one
or both of the parties such that continued negotiations would be pointless.
https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 46-eng.pdf
Re: AMEs Done
WestJet AME’s do Encore maintenance as well.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:15 amI'm wondering if there was a moment in the past few weeks where WJ management was threatening the AMEs with 'all our maintenance will be done by Encore' while at the same time Encore management was threatening the Encore pilots with 'all our flying will be done by WestJet'?Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:10 am The pilots agreed to binding arbitration for CA1, not knowing how hard Kaplan was going to @#$! us.
As for being forced into it, I sure hope not. These guys need a solid contract. According to an ALPA email this week we currently have THREE TIMES the MELs that we did on the same time period a year ago. Now imagine how much worse morale will be with a subpar agreement forced down their throats. They’ll be leaving in droves.
WestJet has treated them appallingly throughout this entire process. I hope they’re about to get a firm punch on the mouth from an employee group finally. It’s long overdue.
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Re: AMEs Done
Thankfully Tech Ops for Encore and WJ merged several years ago, so now they can't be played against each other. WJ Tech Ops is Encore and Mainline.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:15 amI'm wondering if there was a moment in the past few weeks where WJ management was threatening the AMEs with 'all our maintenance will be done by Encore' while at the same time Encore management was threatening the Encore pilots with 'all our flying will be done by WestJet'?Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:10 am The pilots agreed to binding arbitration for CA1, not knowing how hard Kaplan was going to @#$! us.
As for being forced into it, I sure hope not. These guys need a solid contract. According to an ALPA email this week we currently have THREE TIMES the MELs that we did on the same time period a year ago. Now imagine how much worse morale will be with a subpar agreement forced down their throats. They’ll be leaving in droves.
WestJet has treated them appallingly throughout this entire process. I hope they’re about to get a firm punch on the mouth from an employee group finally. It’s long overdue.
Re: AMEs Done
Yes, this is correct.Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:17 am Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the government allowed to intervene and force binding arbitration for the very first collective agreement? Isn't this what happened to WJ pilots during their first CBA? The company has outright stopped negotiating and filed for binding arbitration. I would assume they expect their motion to be accepted.
I don't know precedents with respect to this section, but yes, the CLC has a provision that for First Collective Agreements, the parties can be forced into binding arbitration by the CIRB. Truthfully, I'm surprised the Company didn't pursue this motion earlier.
That being said, it shows the short sighted strategy that WJ's Labour Relations Team and Management employ. Forcing the AME's into an arbitrated contract that they are unhappy with would be like winning the battle but losing the war. AMEs, like pilots right now, are skilled workers in high demand. I'm sure most want to stay at WestJet for the right working conditions. But will be out the door in a flash if they they get a contract forced on them that they are not happy with. A negotiated contract is always a better long term strategy.
Re: AMEs Done
Well that ruins my joke but it's great to hear!Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:48 amThankfully Tech Ops for Encore and WJ merged several years ago, so now they can't be played against each other. WJ Tech Ops is Encore and Mainline.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:15 amI'm wondering if there was a moment in the past few weeks where WJ management was threatening the AMEs with 'all our maintenance will be done by Encore' while at the same time Encore management was threatening the Encore pilots with 'all our flying will be done by WestJet'?Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:10 am The pilots agreed to binding arbitration for CA1, not knowing how hard Kaplan was going to @#$! us.
As for being forced into it, I sure hope not. These guys need a solid contract. According to an ALPA email this week we currently have THREE TIMES the MELs that we did on the same time period a year ago. Now imagine how much worse morale will be with a subpar agreement forced down their throats. They’ll be leaving in droves.
WestJet has treated them appallingly throughout this entire process. I hope they’re about to get a firm punch on the mouth from an employee group finally. It’s long overdue.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: AMEs Done
AMFA-WJ NEGOTIATIONS UPDATE #19: WESTJET DESCRIBES AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE IN STATE OF COLLAPSE
Jun 18, 2024
June 18, 2024
In a submission to a federal agency, dated June 17, 2024, WestJet asserted that a deterioration of its aircraft maintenance operations posed “irreparable harm” and sought the agency’s “immediate intervention.”
As evidence, WestJet cites the airline’s own statistics which show that Aircraft on the Ground (AOG) in May 2024 increased 96 percent over May 2023 to 277 aircraft.
A more troubling statistic cited by WestJet, relative to the decline in the airline’s maintenance standards, is the dramatic growth of aircraft operating with Minimum Equipment Lists (MELs) identifying inoperable equipment on planes operating in revenue service. In May 2023, WestJet’s fleet operated with 101 MELs. One year later, in May 2024, that number had increased 115% to 218. By May 27, 2024, that number had increased to 257.
The safety of aircraft operations depends on redundant systems providing the necessary backups to prevent aviation disasters. The current state of WestJet flight operations reflects a peeling back of important layers of protection. While the affected aircraft may be “airworthy” in a legal sense, they are flying air passengers at a lower level of safety and the trend is disturbing.
WestJet conceded during negotiations that its aircraft maintenance operations are understaffed. The airline confessed that it is unable to fill open positions at the sub-market wages it is currently paying to its Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (AMEs). Despite these staffing challenges, WestJet is fixed on increasing capacity through aggressive growth and fleet expansion, including its immediate intent to acquire portions of now-defunct Lynx Air’s grounded fleet. Yesterday, it canceled negotiations previously scheduled for June 19-20 and asked the Canadian government to impose on its AMEs a contract that they rejected by 97.5%.
If WestJet were to realize its misguided goals, it would have very few AMEs left and the pressure to increase the volume of aircraft operating in revenue with inoperable equipment would be immense.
There is comedic reference to a slogan from wrong-headed management: “the beating will continue until morale improves.” In any context, it is bad policy. In the safety-sensitive airline industry, it is unconscionable.
Fraternally,
AMFA-WestJet Negotiating Committee
Jun 18, 2024
June 18, 2024
In a submission to a federal agency, dated June 17, 2024, WestJet asserted that a deterioration of its aircraft maintenance operations posed “irreparable harm” and sought the agency’s “immediate intervention.”
As evidence, WestJet cites the airline’s own statistics which show that Aircraft on the Ground (AOG) in May 2024 increased 96 percent over May 2023 to 277 aircraft.
A more troubling statistic cited by WestJet, relative to the decline in the airline’s maintenance standards, is the dramatic growth of aircraft operating with Minimum Equipment Lists (MELs) identifying inoperable equipment on planes operating in revenue service. In May 2023, WestJet’s fleet operated with 101 MELs. One year later, in May 2024, that number had increased 115% to 218. By May 27, 2024, that number had increased to 257.
The safety of aircraft operations depends on redundant systems providing the necessary backups to prevent aviation disasters. The current state of WestJet flight operations reflects a peeling back of important layers of protection. While the affected aircraft may be “airworthy” in a legal sense, they are flying air passengers at a lower level of safety and the trend is disturbing.
WestJet conceded during negotiations that its aircraft maintenance operations are understaffed. The airline confessed that it is unable to fill open positions at the sub-market wages it is currently paying to its Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (AMEs). Despite these staffing challenges, WestJet is fixed on increasing capacity through aggressive growth and fleet expansion, including its immediate intent to acquire portions of now-defunct Lynx Air’s grounded fleet. Yesterday, it canceled negotiations previously scheduled for June 19-20 and asked the Canadian government to impose on its AMEs a contract that they rejected by 97.5%.
If WestJet were to realize its misguided goals, it would have very few AMEs left and the pressure to increase the volume of aircraft operating in revenue with inoperable equipment would be immense.
There is comedic reference to a slogan from wrong-headed management: “the beating will continue until morale improves.” In any context, it is bad policy. In the safety-sensitive airline industry, it is unconscionable.
Fraternally,
AMFA-WestJet Negotiating Committee
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Re: AMEs Done
I am surprised AMFA’s latest update highlighting the MELs hadn’t made it into the media yet. That is a damning indication on the current state of Tech Ops affecting safety.
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Re: AMEs Done
I wonder if WestJet considers inop coffee makers or floor trim a safety issue.
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Re: AMEs Done
Right, they're all cosmetic issues in the cabinCaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 5:32 pm I wonder if WestJet considers inop coffee makers or floor trim a safety issue.

Re: AMEs Done
Watch the AOG’s and MEL’s pile up if the government mandates no work stoppage ! Westjet has a problem that needs to be fixed , getting the gov involved will only make it worse !
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Re: AMEs Done
Just saw this with the morning news.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:06 am Guess they're gonna park planes!
https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024 ... ipation-of
Bravo AMEs.
Re: AMEs Done
Stay strong! Your union clearly knows your worth. We all have your backs.
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Re: AMEs Done
Couldn’t agree more. Every AME deserves much more then what they’re getting.. The industry is behind you all.
Let’s see
Re: AMEs Done
If you want to read a laundry list of bad faith bargaining on the part of Westjet just take a look at the AMFA response to the CIRB submission asking the government to make a deal for them. Gives you a good idea why the votes are so solid.
https://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/uni ... eID=923409
https://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/uni ... eID=923409
Re: AMEs Done
Appalling to say the least.YYCAME wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:33 pm If you want to read a laundry list of bad faith bargaining on the part of Westjet just take a look at the AMFA response to the CIRB submission asking the government to make a deal for them. Gives you a good idea why the votes are so solid.
https://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/uni ... eID=923409
Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
Re: AMEs Done
For all the noise tha president is making for us being offered 30 - 40% more in the first year.......I'd like to know where that came from???
This is our current scale for base wages..
This is our current scale for base wages..
Last edited by planenuts on Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: AMEs Done
And this is what is in TA1....just remember what you pay your plumber or car mechanic.
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Re: AMEs Done
Yup, first time poster….long time reader but I had to post on this one….
You don’t like it, go to a different company. Still not happy about it, leave the industry. Quit the whining and hiding behind your union card and do what every non-union employee out there does. Every good, hardworking AME I know in the industry, has found a job with respect and great compensation. Unions protect the lazy and incompetent. No matter the deal, they are never happy and want more for sitting and waiting for the E guy to remove the canon plug so you can turn 2 screws.
The picture in the paper was a joke. Union ‘team members’ smiling with picket signs, shaking hands with a potential NDP leadership candidate. What a joke…..and you thought management wrecked WJ. Wow. Proud work gents! Haha
You all are destroying the public’s travel plans because you are too lazy to find a new job. Get to work!
You don’t like it, go to a different company. Still not happy about it, leave the industry. Quit the whining and hiding behind your union card and do what every non-union employee out there does. Every good, hardworking AME I know in the industry, has found a job with respect and great compensation. Unions protect the lazy and incompetent. No matter the deal, they are never happy and want more for sitting and waiting for the E guy to remove the canon plug so you can turn 2 screws.
The picture in the paper was a joke. Union ‘team members’ smiling with picket signs, shaking hands with a potential NDP leadership candidate. What a joke…..and you thought management wrecked WJ. Wow. Proud work gents! Haha
You all are destroying the public’s travel plans because you are too lazy to find a new job. Get to work!
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Re: AMEs Done
What does a car mechanic make? I always thought they were paid like a max of 70k at most, with a lot of them starting under 45k.
Sure, the shop hourly rate is high, but that never goes to the employee.
I agree you guys should make more, but what exactly are you aiming for? I am just curious.
Sure, the shop hourly rate is high, but that never goes to the employee.
I agree you guys should make more, but what exactly are you aiming for? I am just curious.
Re: AMEs Done
My neighbour owns a large local garage. Has done very, very well and has an absolute pile of cash. Wants to sell and is angry that -in his words last month- he can't find mechanics because a class A wants 40 bucks an hour.Dronepiper wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:52 pm What does a car mechanic make? I always thought they were paid like a max of 70k at most, with a lot of them starting under 45k.
Sure, the shop hourly rate is high, but that never goes to the employee.
I agree you guys should make more, but what exactly are you aiming for? I am just curious.
I understand the burden of running a business, especially insurance now but, yikes.
Car mechanic is also different because you have a service book hour structure.
Small one truck plumber 80-120/hr. Similar for elec and HVAC.