Pasco Bond

[scdriver]

Wondering if anyone knows whether or not pasco has a bond on the 1900 at the moment. Thx

[CaptDukeNukem]

Wondering if anyone knows whether or not pasco has a bond on the 1900 at the moment. Thx

Used to be not long ago. I assume there still is. Don’t remember the terms. It seems to be the only way to get drivers to fill 703 seats to get a relatively easy career progression, unfortunately.

[scdriver]

Wondering if anyone knows whether or not pasco has a bond on the 1900 at the moment. Thx

Used to be not long ago. I assume there still is. Don’t remember the terms. It seems to be the only way to get drivers to fill 703 seats to get a relatively easy career progression, unfortunately.

Brutal. Won’t be going there if there is, that’s for sure

[mmm...bacon]

What's "brutal" about it? They've probably been burned multiple times by people coming in, doing the training and then skipping off to their next job without giving them a reasonable return on their investment. A 1 year commitment (say) after the company spends $30K on your training isnt too much to ask..

[cdnavater]

What's "brutal" about it? They've probably been burned multiple times by people coming in, doing the training and then skipping off to their next job without giving them a reasonable return on their investment. A 1 year commitment (say) after the company spends $30K on your training isnt too much to ask..

It’s a two way street, the company needs to make it worth it to stay, if they had a bond but paid 150k for FOs and 200k for Captains, then no one would be complaining!

[scdriver]

What's "brutal" about it? They've probably been burned multiple times by people coming in, doing the training and then skipping off to their next job without giving them a reasonable return on their investment. A 1 year commitment (say) after the company spends $30K on your training isnt too much to ask..

It’s a two way street, the company needs to make it worth it to stay, if they had a bond but paid 150k for FOs and 200k for Captains, then no one would be complaining!

Bingo

[goingnowherefast]

It's deceptive advertising of jobs that's rampant across the 703 and 704 world. "Come work for us, we're awesome". Then the person finishes training and find out after a couple months of flying that it is not awesome at all.

Operators also know that if they were honest in the job ads and hiring process that they'd have no applicants. So just hide some of the conditions during the hiring process and bond the new hires, forcing them to stay. Maybe some companies even believe their own kool-aid.

[digits_]

It's deceptive advertising of jobs that's rampant across the 703 and 704 world. "Come work for us, we're awesome". Then the person finishes training and find out after a couple months of flying that it is not awesome at all.

Operators also know that if they were honest in the job ads and hiring process that they'd have no applicants. So just hide some of the conditions during the hiring process and bond the new hires, forcing them to stay. Maybe some companies even believe their own kool-aid.

Exactly!

The bond you sign never mentions all the working conditions, it's only a brief summary. So when the bait and switch happens, you're still bonded. That's the issue.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I believe most people research a job prior to signing on the dotted line. I don’t think working conditions are often a surprise.

[digits_]

I believe most people research a job prior to signing on the dotted line. I don’t think working conditions are often a surprise.

It's not even necessarily about current conditions. A lot can (and likely will) change in a year or two.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I believe most people research a job prior to signing on the dotted line. I don’t think working conditions are often a surprise.

It's not even necessarily about current conditions. A lot can (and likely will) change in a year or two.

It’s all just chance…
No one can predict how it will be. Fortune favours the bold.

the magic 8-ball might actually help make a decision here.

Bonds are crap. I’ll agree with you there. However,in my opinion, doing a year or two at some 703 or 704 before moving directly into a heavy turboprop or jet will actually gain you the experience you require to further your career faster.
If you sign for a year, knowing the conditions at the time, finish the year.
If you signed knowing there was a bond and you leave, pay it out as per the contract, or don’t.

[goingnowherefast]

Completely agree. It's wonderful flying with people who flew 703 or 704 for a bit before moving onto the 705 world. Even a bit of float time before getting the PC-12 or King Air job does wonders for one's abilities.

Some instructors turn into great airline (705) pilots. But the first year or so of their 705 career is pretty rough. Everyone should "cut their teeth" (expression) in a 703/704 IFR plane before hopping in the right seat of a CRJ.

Just that most 703/704 companies won't tell you your job will include cleaning vomit off the seats or putting on engine tents at -40°c in the dark. They keep that little nugget of info quiet until later. Then Jazz calls after 6 months, promising an APU, no more vomit, and competent ramp staff. They're gone because Porter promises no more restacking the hangar in the dark with only 1 extra set of eyes at 5am because the plane you were assigned is at the back (then the boss gets mad if the other wing bumps a toolbox).

[OneYonge]

Completely agree. It's wonderful flying with people who flew 703 or 704 for a bit before moving onto the 705 world. Even a bit of float time before getting the PC-12 or King Air job does wonders for one's abilities.

Some instructors turn into great airline (705) pilots. But the first year or so of their 705 career is pretty rough. Everyone should "cut their teeth" (expression) in a 703/704 IFR plane before hopping in the right seat of a CRJ.

Just that most 703/704 companies won't tell you your job will include cleaning vomit off the seats or putting on engine tents at -40°c in the dark. They keep that little nugget of info quiet until later. Then Jazz calls after 6 months, promising an APU, no more vomit, and competent ramp staff. They're gone because Porter promises no more restacking the hangar in the dark with only 1 extra set of eyes at 5am because the plane you were assigned is at the back (then the boss gets mad if the other wing bumps a toolbox).

These operators will tell you everything you ask about.
That’s the purpose of the interview.
Someone here said it’s a two way street.

[digits_]

Completely agree. It's wonderful flying with people who flew 703 or 704 for a bit before moving onto the 705 world. Even a bit of float time before getting the PC-12 or King Air job does wonders for one's abilities.

Some instructors turn into great airline (705) pilots. But the first year or so of their 705 career is pretty rough. Everyone should "cut their teeth" (expression) in a 703/704 IFR plane before hopping in the right seat of a CRJ.

Just that most 703/704 companies won't tell you your job will include cleaning vomit off the seats or putting on engine tents at -40°c in the dark. They keep that little nugget of info quiet until later. Then Jazz calls after 6 months, promising an APU, no more vomit, and competent ramp staff. They're gone because Porter promises no more restacking the hangar in the dark with only 1 extra set of eyes at 5am because the plane you were assigned is at the back (then the boss gets mad if the other wing bumps a toolbox).

These operators will tell you everything you ask about.
That’s the purpose of the interview.
Someone here said it’s a two way street.

When you're new to the company, you don't always know what you need to ask. It would never pop up in my mind that I would have to clean vomit, or have to work on my days off when asked, or be creative with duty times to keep everything 'legal'. None of which would be answered complete and truthfully anyway when asked.

"Do I have to clean up vomit?"
- "no, we have staff for that" (but we're constantly hiring, the staff isn't there, so in reality you either clean up the vomit yourself at 8 pm or strand the plane, yourself and your passengers in mcbtfck nowhere till 9 am when the staff might show up)

"Do I have to work on my days off?"
- "off course not" (but your only days off are the CARs required days off, the other days you're just scheduled for no flights, but it doesn't mean you're off)

"Do I have to fudge duty times to keep everything legal?"
- "of course not, we're not that kind of operation" (plot twist: they are...)

And that concludes the interview, and another candidate not asking these nasty questions will get hired.

Disclaimer: none of this is pasco specific, never had any association with them. Just an example as to why people, including myself, heavily dislike bonds. They are too one sided. The only operations where you should consider a bond, are unionized jobs, where all duties are somewhat strictly defined. But most of those don't have bonds anyway....

[OneYonge]

Completely agree. It's wonderful flying with people who flew 703 or 704 for a bit before moving onto the 705 world. Even a bit of float time before getting the PC-12 or King Air job does wonders for one's abilities.

Some instructors turn into great airline (705) pilots. But the first year or so of their 705 career is pretty rough. Everyone should "cut their teeth" (expression) in a 703/704 IFR plane before hopping in the right seat of a CRJ.

Just that most 703/704 companies won't tell you your job will include cleaning vomit off the seats or putting on engine tents at -40°c in the dark. They keep that little nugget of info quiet until later. Then Jazz calls after 6 months, promising an APU, no more vomit, and competent ramp staff. They're gone because Porter promises no more restacking the hangar in the dark with only 1 extra set of eyes at 5am because the plane you were assigned is at the back (then the boss gets mad if the other wing bumps a toolbox).

These operators will tell you everything you ask about.
That’s the purpose of the interview.
Someone here said it’s a two way street.

When you're new to the company, you don't always know what you need to ask. It would never pop up in my mind that I would have to clean vomit, or have to work on my days off when asked, or be creative with duty times to keep everything 'legal'. None of which would be answered complete and truthfully anyway when asked.

"Do I have to clean up vomit?"
- "no, we have staff for that" (but we're constantly hiring, the staff isn't there, so in reality you either clean up the vomit yourself at 8 pm or strand the plane, yourself and your passengers in mcbtfck nowhere till 9 am when the staff might show up)

"Do I have to work on my days off?"
- "off course not" (but your only days off are the CARs required days off, the other days you're just scheduled for no flights, but it doesn't mean you're off)

"Do I have to fudge duty times to keep everything legal?"
- "of course not, we're not that kind of operation" (plot twist: they are...)

And that concludes the interview, and another candidate not asking these nasty questions will get hired.

Disclaimer: none of this is pasco specific, never had any association with them. Just an example as to why people, including myself, heavily dislike bonds. They are too one sided. The only operations where you should consider a bond, are unionized jobs, where all duties are somewhat strictly defined. But most of those don't have bonds anyway....

if you don't already know that passengers vomit and someone has to clean that up..you can't expect them to educate you on the obvious.

you literally don't have to work on your days off or be creative with your duty time. knowing the CARs is just as much your responsibility.

you can't just accuse employers of lying to you just because you didn't ask. they have no idea that you have no idea what to ask.

if these answers on your dialogue are not from Pasco then they are either made up or aren't.

if they aren't then please tell everyone which company it is.

[Me262]

These operators will tell you everything you ask about.
That’s the purpose of the interview.
Someone here said it’s a two way street.

When you're new to the company, you don't always know what you need to ask. It would never pop up in my mind that I would have to clean vomit, or have to work on my days off when asked, or be creative with duty times to keep everything 'legal'. None of which would be answered complete and truthfully anyway when asked.

"Do I have to clean up vomit?"
- "no, we have staff for that" (but we're constantly hiring, the staff isn't there, so in reality you either clean up the vomit yourself at 8 pm or strand the plane, yourself and your passengers in mcbtfck nowhere till 9 am when the staff might show up)

"Do I have to work on my days off?"
- "off course not" (but your only days off are the CARs required days off, the other days you're just scheduled for no flights, but it doesn't mean you're off)

"Do I have to fudge duty times to keep everything legal?"
- "of course not, we're not that kind of operation" (plot twist: they are...)

And that concludes the interview, and another candidate not asking these nasty questions will get hired.

Disclaimer: none of this is pasco specific, never had any association with them. Just an example as to why people, including myself, heavily dislike bonds. They are too one sided. The only operations where you should consider a bond, are unionized jobs, where all duties are somewhat strictly defined. But most of those don't have bonds anyway....

if you don't already know that passengers vomit and someone has to clean that up..you can't expect them to educate you on the obvious.

you literally don't have to work on your days off or be creative with your duty time. knowing the CARs is just as much your responsibility.

you can't just accuse employers of lying to you just because you didn't ask. they have no idea that you have no idea what to ask.

if these answers on your dialogue are not from Pasco then they are either made up or aren't.

if they aren't then please tell everyone which company it is.

Oh man, Buffalo Joe would love to have you work for him

[digits_]

if you don't already know that passengers vomit and someone has to clean that up..you can't expect them to educate you on the obvious.

Did you even read my example? It wasn't the pilot's job to clean up vomit. But there was nobody else around due to cost cutting by the company (eg nobody wanted to do the job for the offered pay). So it became the pilot's task to deal with it, as nobody else cared.

you literally don't have to work on your days off or be creative with your duty time. knowing the CARs is just as much your responsibility.

Sounds logical. But it isn't. One (unfortunately) common theme is: when are you days off defined? Didn't get a call? That was your day off. We didn't call you for 8/10/12 hours? That was your rest, now go fly.

Is that legal? At the very least extremely grey area. If you're not bonded, you can look for other jobs when this happens. If you are bonded, you can't just leave. You can refuse the job, and expect to get fired with some kind of excuse if it happens a few times, after which you can fight, but you'll be out of a job for a few months while trying to find something new. The company has all the control.

If you quit, you can quit on your own terms with another job lined up.

you can't just accuse employers of lying to you just because you didn't ask. they have no idea that you have no idea what to ask.

I didn't accuse them of lying. I accuse them of being incomplete or evasive in their answers. And asking enough of those questions is pretty much a guarantee to not getting hired.

if these answers on your dialogue are not from Pasco then they are either made up or aren't.

if they aren't then please tell everyone which company it is.

Some are made up, some aren't. If you think they are all made up, then consider yourself lucky. But don't defend bonds please. They hurt the industry, and the safe execution of flights. It takes away the most powerful tool a pilot has to guarantee a safe flight: to walk away.

To clarify again: these are not examples directed at Pasco, but examples as to why people generally dislike bonds.

[OneYonge]

lol at Buffalo Joe comment.

You made my point.

If you go over there and get blindsided by the working conditions because you had no idea or never watched an episode…..it’s not because they lied to you about being some kind of Emirates operation of Canada.

[OneYonge]

if you don't already know that passengers vomit and someone has to clean that up..you can't expect them to educate you on the obvious.

Did you even read my example? It wasn't the pilot's job to clean up vomit. But there was nobody else around due to cost cutting by the company (eg nobody wanted to do the job for the offered pay). So it became the pilot's task to deal with it, as nobody else cared.

you literally don't have to work on your days off or be creative with your duty time. knowing the CARs is just as much your responsibility.

Sounds logical. But it isn't. One (unfortunately) common theme is: when are you days off defined? Didn't get a call? That was your day off. We didn't call you for 8/10/12 hours? That was your rest, now go fly.

Is that legal? At the very least extremely grey area. If you're not bonded, you can look for other jobs when this happens. If you are bonded, you can't just leave. You can refuse the job, and expect to get fired with some kind of excuse if it happens a few times, after which you can fight, but you'll be out of a job for a few months while trying to find something new. The company has all the control.

If you quit, you can quit on your own terms with another job lined up.

you can't just accuse employers of lying to you just because you didn't ask. they have no idea that you have no idea what to ask.

I didn't accuse them of lying. I accuse them of being incomplete or evasive in their answers. And asking enough of those questions is pretty much a guarantee to not getting hired.

if these answers on your dialogue are not from Pasco then they are either made up or aren't.

if they aren't then please tell everyone which company it is.

Some are made up, some aren't. If you think they are all made up, then consider yourself lucky. But don't defend bonds please. They hurt the industry, and the safe execution of flights. It takes away the most powerful tool a pilot has to guarantee a safe flight: to walk away.

To clarify again: these are not examples directed at Pasco, but examples as to why people generally dislike bonds.

I think you need to review your duty times for CARs again. Your example would be “On Reserve” which means you are not on your day off.

If they did not know that either, i’m not surprised. The new regs are daunting…but it is still YOUR responsibility.

There is a big difference between a 703/704 growing pains adjusting to regs…. and outright lying and ignoring the law and trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

If you are confused about the regs, someone made a nice website called TiredPilots.ca

[OneYonge]

I didn't accuse them of lying. I accuse them of being incomplete or evasive in their answers. And asking enough of those questions is pretty much a guarantee to not getting hired.

Incomplete only because you didn’t ask. Most of these guys will just give you the info.

If they are “evasive”, you don’t see this as exactly why you should be asking all those questions on your interview?

I say it’s a win for you if you don’t get hired because you asked questions. You just saved yourself a lot of time.

Did this happen at PASCO? I haven’t heard of people getting shafted for asking questions.

You are forgetting that an interview is a two-way street. You should be evaluating your potential employers before signing up.

[digits_]

I didn't accuse them of lying. I accuse them of being incomplete or evasive in their answers. And asking enough of those questions is pretty much a guarantee to not getting hired.

Incomplete only because you didn’t ask. Most of these guys will just give you the info.

If they are “evasive”, you don’t see this as exactly why you should be asking all those questions on your interview?

I say it’s a win for you if you don’t get hired because you asked questions. You just saved yourself a lot of time.

Did this happen at PASCO? I haven’t heard of people getting shafted for asking questions.

You are forgetting that an interview is a two-way street. You should be evaluating your potential employers before signing up.

Most people won't know if they are evasive or not, because they won't ask questions. There's still ample supply of sub 1500 hour pilots. Those people don't have a choice, they need a job, any job. They won't ask tough questions. The only defence these pilots have is to turn down unsafe work. If that could potentially cost you 20k/30k/...., then there's a really big hurdle to do so.

It's not a two way street because the balance of power is, still, heavily tilted in favour of the employer for those low time pilots. It's a 4 lane highway one way, and a dirt road in the other.

If you've never encountered these situations, and if you truly think the stuff me and other posters here are mentioning is unrealistic or a sign of entitled or dumb pilots, then again, count your blessings. But be aware that your career path is likely not an accurate representation to the average pilot's career in Canada.



I'm also intrigued that the general theme of the pro-bond side in these bond discussions can often be paraphrased as "bonds are necessary otherwise pilots will leave because they are selfish" but the idea of "let's improve the work conditions so no pilot ever wants to leave here" is never entertained.

[OneYonge]

I didn't accuse them of lying. I accuse them of being incomplete or evasive in their answers. And asking enough of those questions is pretty much a guarantee to not getting hired.

Incomplete only because you didn’t ask. Most of these guys will just give you the info.

If they are “evasive”, you don’t see this as exactly why you should be asking all those questions on your interview?

I say it’s a win for you if you don’t get hired because you asked questions. You just saved yourself a lot of time.

Did this happen at PASCO? I haven’t heard of people getting shafted for asking questions.

You are forgetting that an interview is a two-way street. You should be evaluating your potential employers before signing up.

Most people won't know if they are evasive or not, because they won't ask questions. There's still ample supply of sub 1500 hour pilots. Those people don't have a choice, they need a job, any job. They won't ask tough questions. The only defence these pilots have is to turn down unsafe work. If that could potentially cost you 20k/30k/...., then there's a really big hurdle to do so.

It's not a two way street because the balance of power is, still, heavily tilted in favour of the employer for those low time pilots. It's a 4 lane highway one way, and a dirt road in the other.

If you've never encountered these situations, and if you truly think the stuff me and other posters here are mentioning is unrealistic or a sign of entitled or dumb pilots, then again, count your blessings. But be aware that your career path is likely not an accurate representation to the average pilot's career in Canada.



I'm also intrigued that the general theme of the pro-bond side in these bond discussions can often be paraphrased as "bonds are necessary otherwise pilots will leave because they are selfish" but the idea of "let's improve the work conditions so no pilot ever wants to leave here" is never entertained.

I’ve never worked for Pasco, but I have done their interview a few years back and turned them down.

All I know is they answered all my questions. They were pretty straightforward regarding the bond, the compensation and the duty hours.

If they fooled someone else into working for them by lying or evading questions, I have not heard of it yet. That seems to be the accusation?

Someone obviously ran the numbers there and thought the bond option is the way to go…but as an employee, it’s up to you to decide and ASK QUESTIONS before signing up.

If you are an unhappy employee there, maybe follow the AC Pilots’ lead, unionize and collectively bargain or something?

[OneYonge]

If you've never encountered these situations, and if you truly think the stuff me and other posters here are mentioning is unrealistic or a sign of entitled or dumb pilots, then again, count your blessings. But be aware that your career path is likely not an accurate representation to the average pilot's career in Canada.

I’ve had my encounters with sketchy employers who ignore regs, demand a lot worse than clean your airplane, etc… I honestly could not tell you if Pasco is among them.

I’ve only seen lots of posters who don’t work for them, yet complain about them.

[cdnavater]

Incomplete only because you didn’t ask. Most of these guys will just give you the info.

If they are “evasive”, you don’t see this as exactly why you should be asking all those questions on your interview?

I say it’s a win for you if you don’t get hired because you asked questions. You just saved yourself a lot of time.

Did this happen at PASCO? I haven’t heard of people getting shafted for asking questions.

You are forgetting that an interview is a two-way street. You should be evaluating your potential employers before signing up.

Most people won't know if they are evasive or not, because they won't ask questions. There's still ample supply of sub 1500 hour pilots. Those people don't have a choice, they need a job, any job. They won't ask tough questions. The only defence these pilots have is to turn down unsafe work. If that could potentially cost you 20k/30k/...., then there's a really big hurdle to do so.

It's not a two way street because the balance of power is, still, heavily tilted in favour of the employer for those low time pilots. It's a 4 lane highway one way, and a dirt road in the other.

If you've never encountered these situations, and if you truly think the stuff me and other posters here are mentioning is unrealistic or a sign of entitled or dumb pilots, then again, count your blessings. But be aware that your career path is likely not an accurate representation to the average pilot's career in Canada.



I'm also intrigued that the general theme of the pro-bond side in these bond discussions can often be paraphrased as "bonds are necessary otherwise pilots will leave because they are selfish" but the idea of "let's improve the work conditions so no pilot ever wants to leave here" is never entertained.

I’ve never worked for Pasco, but I have done their interview a few years back and turned them down.

All I know is they answered all my questions. They were pretty straightforward regarding the bond, the compensation and the duty hours.

If they fooled someone else into working for them by lying or evading questions, I have not heard of it yet. That seems to be the accusation?

Someone obviously ran the numbers there and thought the bond option is the way to go…but as an employee, it’s up to you to decide and ASK QUESTIONS before signing up.

If you are an unhappy employee there, maybe follow the AC Pilots’ lead, unionize and collectively bargain or something?

So, they answered all your questions but you didn’t work for them, forgive the expression but how the hell do you know if they lied to you!

[khedrei]

.