Why are AC pilots voting for relief pilot pay 30 to 40% less than FO?

[HFNav]

2 identical pilots, same new hire class

number out of hat

one starts relief pilot 787, the other as FO 787
similar work

Why are AC pilots voting for relief pilot pay 30 to 40% less than FO?

787

Year 3 FO - $132.07
Year 3 RP - $101.73
31% more

Year 4 FO - $154.75
Year 4 RP - $109.74
41% more


Where in the United or Delta agreements are these discounts?


New Virgin Australia TA is $183,137 for a 1st year FO

[dialdriver]

Welcome to seniority buddy, you signed up for it.

[cdnavater]

It is my understanding that RPs are not trained to the same level, a condensed program, not trained to land the aircraft, only cruise relief duties, therefore paid less

[flying4dollars]

It is my understanding that RPs are not trained to the same level, a condensed program, not trained to land the aircraft, only cruise relief duties, therefore paid less

Correct

[altiplano]

WB FOs work harder than RPs.

RP is a lifestyle position for most, certainly those still on it after the first couple years.

[LandingLights]

It is my understanding that RPs are not trained to the same level, a condensed program, not trained to land the aircraft, only cruise relief duties, therefore paid less

Currently, FOs and RPs go through the exact same training course. The only difference is during the TC Evaluation Event, for which RPs get a few less items ticked off.

AC is the only airline in North America that utilizes RPs. It is a huge cost savings compared to other airlines staffing flights with multiple CA/FOs.

Ideally, everyone should be trained & paid as FO, and bid for desired Operating/Augment flight pairings based solely on seniority.

With the A321XLRs coming, look forward to having A320RP positions . If not, they shouldn't have any other RP positions.

[Canadaflyer46]

Does any other NA airline have relief pilots/second officers? Pretty sure the only purpose of the RP program is to drive down costs. Yeah. WCC etc.

[TheStig]

When comparing the wide-body fleet as a percentage of their overall fleets, here's a breakdown for Air Canada, United Airlines, and Delta Airlines:

1. Air Canada: About 50% of its fleet consists of wide-body aircraft. This includes planes like the Boeing 777, 787, and Airbus A330, which are used for long-haul international flights.

2. United Airlines: Approximately 27% of United's fleet is made up of wide-body aircraft, primarily including Boeing 777, 787, and 767s.

3. Delta operates a slightly higher percentage, with about 30% of its fleet comprising wide-body aircraft, such as the Airbus A330 and Boeing 767.

Thus, Air Canada has a significantly larger portion of its fleet in wide-body aircraft compared to both United and Delta, making it more reliant on these aircraft for international operations.

[Me262]

How long does it take to bid from RP to FO? Being RP on flat pay is definitely much better, now with only 2 years that could change, but on the old 4 years, that was definitely the way to go.

[CaptDukeNukem]

How long does it take to bid from RP to FO? Being RP on flat pay is definitely much better, now with only 2 years that could change, but on the old 4 years, that was definitely the way to go.

Are you sure about that? RPs were getting shit schedules with massive DHs paid at 50% time. The grass isn’t greener

[Me262]

How long does it take to bid from RP to FO? Being RP on flat pay is definitely much better, now with only 2 years that could change, but on the old 4 years, that was definitely the way to go.

Are you sure about that? RPs were getting shit schedules with massive DHs paid at 50% time. The grass isn’t greener

I'm sure straight from my buddies mouth that said he loved RP. First 4 years was same pay with a much better schedule. Then he bid FO before the 4 years were up, but because he wasn't trained before people below him in seniority got trained, he's getting paid FO now while still doing RP near the top of seniority schedule, waiting to get trained for FO.

[CaptDukeNukem]

How long does it take to bid from RP to FO? Being RP on flat pay is definitely much better, now with only 2 years that could change, but on the old 4 years, that was definitely the way to go.

Are you sure about that? RPs were getting shit schedules with massive DHs paid at 50% time. The grass isn’t greener

I'm sure straight from my buddies mouth that said he loved RP. First 4 years was same pay with a much better schedule. Then he bid FO before the 4 years were up, but because he wasn't trained before people below him in seniority got trained, he's getting paid FO now while still doing RP near the top of seniority schedule, waiting to get trained for FO.

Yea…. I don’t think it’s quite as simple. Hearing it from your buddy is one thing. I’m sure he likes it to the extent that he wants it to be. RP is not a bad job.
In my opinion, it shouldnt exists at all. They should all be qualified as FOs. But let’s leave that for another thread.

I think what im trying to get at here, is that RPs are an equivalent role created for airlines to somehow abuse the ranks more.

Sure it can offer someone a better schedule, but it’s really not much of a difference. They used to have flight engineers. When they were needed

Edited for grammar which I probably missed like three other ones

[thepoors]

Does any other NA airline have relief pilots/second officers? Pretty sure the only purpose of the RP program is to drive down costs. Yeah. WCC etc.

No, AC is the only one with this bullshit position. Every US airline trains their FOs as FOs and uses them as augments. And you are correct of course, that is exactly it's purpose.

Why anyone would want to be an RP I don't know...just the potential of having to deadhead 16hr flights in Y is enough of a deterrent for me.

[lostav8r]

Does any other NA airline have relief pilots/second officers? Pretty sure the only purpose of the RP program is to drive down costs. Yeah. WCC etc.

No, AC is the only one with this bullshit position. Every US airline trains their FOs as FOs and uses them as augments. And you are correct of course, that is exactly it's purpose.

Why anyone would want to be an RP I don't know...just the potential of having to deadhead 16hr flights in Y is enough of a deterrent for me.

Being a RP sounds like a dream if you want to have a passion project outside flying

[200Above]

Does any other NA airline have relief pilots/second officers? Pretty sure the only purpose of the RP program is to drive down costs. Yeah. WCC etc.

No, AC is the only one with this bullshit position. Every US airline trains their FOs as FOs and uses them as augments. And you are correct of course, that is exactly it's purpose.

Why anyone would want to be an RP I don't know...just the potential of having to deadhead 16hr flights in Y is enough of a deterrent for me.

Being a RP sounds like a dream if you want to have a passion project outside flying

Exactly. I'm a top 25% RP and I work 9 days a month. I have a side hustle.

However, with the new TA, we've been left so far in the dust. It's become hard to justify the pay differential versus the other 3 pilots in the flight deck. I understand I don't takeoff or land, but I set up the approach, I grab the ATIS/WAT, deviate around thunderstorms, do the walk around, make the bunks, print the flight plans, and participate in the threat briefing.

A couple more % of the captain salary would have been appropriate. I also think the FO's should be at a higher percentage.

The RP position is great for lifestyle. But each pilot has to weigh the consequences.

[HavaJava]

No, AC is the only one with this bullshit position. Every US airline trains their FOs as FOs and uses them as augments. And you are correct of course, that is exactly it's purpose.

Why anyone would want to be an RP I don't know...just the potential of having to deadhead 16hr flights in Y is enough of a deterrent for me.

Being a RP sounds like a dream if you want to have a passion project outside flying

Exactly. I'm a top 25% RP and I work 9 days a month. I have a side hustle.

However, with the new TA, we've been left so far in the dust. It's become hard to justify the pay differential versus the other 3 pilots in the flight deck. I understand I don't takeoff or land, but I set up the approach, I grab the ATIS/WAT, deviate around thunderstorms, do the walk around, make the bunks, print the flight plans, and participate in the threat briefing.

A couple more % of the captain salary would have been appropriate. I also think the FO's should be at a higher percentage.

The RP position is great for lifestyle. But each pilot has to weigh the consequences.

You should definitely work-to-rule. “Making the bunks” is not part of your (or any pilots) job description. As an FO I make sure to call out any Captain’s BS if they suggest the RP should make the bunks.

[alkaseltzer]

2 identical pilots, same new hire class

number out of hat

one starts relief pilot 787, the other as FO 787
similar work

Why are AC pilots voting for relief pilot pay 30 to 40% less than FO?

787

Year 3 FO - $132.07
Year 3 RP - $101.73
31% more

Year 4 FO - $154.75
Year 4 RP - $109.74
41% more


Where in the United or Delta agreements are these discounts?


New Virgin Australia TA is $183,137 for a 1st year FO

RP's are equivalent to fluffers. They are not the main act...but play a key role in making sure it goes well.

[altiplano]

No, AC is the only one with this bullshit position. Every US airline trains their FOs as FOs and uses them as augments. And you are correct of course, that is exactly it's purpose.

Why anyone would want to be an RP I don't know...just the potential of having to deadhead 16hr flights in Y is enough of a deterrent for me.

Being a RP sounds like a dream if you want to have a passion project outside flying

Exactly. I'm a top 25% RP and I work 9 days a month. I have a side hustle.

However, with the new TA, we've been left so far in the dust. It's become hard to justify the pay differential versus the other 3 pilots in the flight deck. I understand I don't takeoff or land, but I set up the approach, I grab the ATIS/WAT, deviate around thunderstorms, do the walk around, make the bunks, print the flight plans, and participate in the threat briefing.

A couple more % of the captain salary would have been appropriate. I also think the FO's should be at a higher percentage.

The RP position is great for lifestyle. But each pilot has to weigh the consequences.

Get a job!

LOL.

I get the ATIS and make the beds... I participate... not sure if that's sarcasm in your post or if you're serious?

RP is an embarrassment to our group, it's a lifestyle hobby job for sure. Good for new moms and new hires and then it's time to join the ranks of the rest of us. If you are happy to stay there and do little, that's your prerogative, I get it, great way to ride out flat pay or whatever. I rode the middle seat myself for a bit, needed some "me time." But I for one don't want to see another nickel put into a position I'd like to see outright eliminated.

The fact is at 25% RP you could be in any FO position or NB CA position and get paid. If you want to earn you know what to do and it isn't staying there.

[yycflyguy]

Being a RP sounds like a dream if you want to have a passion project outside flying

Exactly. I'm a top 25% RP and I work 9 days a month. I have a side hustle.

However, with the new TA, we've been left so far in the dust. It's become hard to justify the pay differential versus the other 3 pilots in the flight deck. I understand I don't takeoff or land, but I set up the approach, I grab the ATIS/WAT, deviate around thunderstorms, do the walk around, make the bunks, print the flight plans, and participate in the threat briefing.

A couple more % of the captain salary would have been appropriate. I also think the FO's should be at a higher percentage.

The RP position is great for lifestyle. But each pilot has to weigh the consequences.

You should definitely work-to-rule. “Making the bunks” is not part of your (or any pilots) job description. As an FO I make sure to call out any Captain’s BS if they suggest the RP should make the bunks.

I bet you’re disgusted by the suggestion of doing the logbook, getting some WAT or making a break schedule. Somebody didn’t play team sports.

[newlygrounded]

Exactly. I'm a top 25% RP and I work 9 days a month. I have a side hustle.

However, with the new TA, we've been left so far in the dust. It's become hard to justify the pay differential versus the other 3 pilots in the flight deck. I understand I don't takeoff or land, but I set up the approach, I grab the ATIS/WAT, deviate around thunderstorms, do the walk around, make the bunks, print the flight plans, and participate in the threat briefing.

A couple more % of the captain salary would have been appropriate. I also think the FO's should be at a higher percentage.

The RP position is great for lifestyle. But each pilot has to weigh the consequences.

You should definitely work-to-rule. “Making the bunks” is not part of your (or any pilots) job description. As an FO I make sure to call out any Captain’s BS if they suggest the RP should make the bunks.

I bet you’re disgusted by the suggestion of doing the logbook, getting some WAT or making a break schedule. Somebody didn’t play team sports.

Is it such a crazy idea for grown ass men to make their own bunks? Team sports don't involve washing the star players car

[flyingcanuck]

You should definitely work-to-rule. “Making the bunks” is not part of your (or any pilots) job description. As an FO I make sure to call out any Captain’s BS if they suggest the RP should make the bunks.

I bet you’re disgusted by the suggestion of doing the logbook, getting some WAT or making a break schedule. Somebody didn’t play team sports.

Is it such a crazy idea for grown ass men to make their own bunks? Team sports don't involve washing the star players car

I don't get the hate. I'm on the 87. I see it as a nice thing to do for the crew while they're programming and you're twiddling your thumbs. Everyone gets a few more minutes of sleep. Were a team, but some have some really shallow egos who cant handle it I guess.

[newlygrounded]

I bet you’re disgusted by the suggestion of doing the logbook, getting some WAT or making a break schedule. Somebody didn’t play team sports.

Is it such a crazy idea for grown ass men to make their own bunks? Team sports don't involve washing the star players car

I don't get the hate. I'm on the 87. I see it as a nice thing to do for the crew while they're programming and you're twiddling your thumbs. Everyone gets a few more minutes of sleep. Were a team, but some have some really shallow egos who cant handle it I guess.

You've got a very shallow ego if you won't wipe another mans ass too