Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by TheStig »

RAIM wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:07 am
TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:44 am The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.
Stig,

Can you explain to me how WestJet with only 2 rounds of bargaining, the first one being arbitrated, has almost the same pay now after making MORE than us as a low cost carrier.

THEN, they have better reserve and productivity rules?

How is that even possible??

Is arbitration really much worse and maybe the results are because WJ didn't practice the art of capitulation 3 days prior?
I don't claim to be an expert of WJ negotiations but in their first round they entered willingly into arbitration. The arbitrator awarded the pilots some gains but also allowed the company to continue operating Swoop with a separate seniority list under the condition that they couldn't operate out of YYZ or use the MAX aircraft (conditions the airline almost immediately ignored)? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lesson learned, in their second round of negotiations WJ ALPA knew that they couldn't trust an Arbitrator to secure the gains they desired and came to a last minute deal (without any threat of government interference). They secured pay gains but more importantly, scope over swoop and sunwing flying. I recall posters on this site thrashed them for not securing a world class contract and for capitulating.

In 2026 a WJ 12th year 737 Captain will be earning $304.90/hour and AC 12th year 737 Captains will be earning 337.33 +37.33 Nav/OVS (in September). At that time year 1 WJ will be 88.96 vs 94.62 at AC. Hopefully they can leapfrog AC pay once again as they will be behind in terms of pay.

Can you please explain how WJ has better reserve and productivity rules?

In the latest CA AC pilots secured improvements to reserve; with increased days off in low block hour months, removal of T days, the award steps need to be followed top to bottom before a reserve pilot can be reassigned, this allows reserve pilots to benefit from override etc, 24 hour release after assignment, seniority based RAP assignments.

What in their contract increases productivity? ADG, DPG, a 16 day cap on NB flying? Or is it that you feel entitled to socialized bidding.
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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by TheStig »

CPU2000 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:17 am I believe this is what you call "revisionist history"

This is total bullshit. They literally ran how many webinars, newsletters and townhalls to push it.

Wow Stig...are you Harold or James??
No, just a line pilot. Were you flying at AC when that MOA was reached?

So...the MEC and NC shouldn't present any information to the membership prior to voting? Just send out a summary and let the slack group figure it out?
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CPU2000
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by CPU2000 »

TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:54 am
CPU2000 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:17 am I believe this is what you call "revisionist history"

This is total bullshit. They literally ran how many webinars, newsletters and townhalls to push it.

Wow Stig...are you Harold or James??
No, just a line pilot. Were you flying at AC when that MOA was reached?

So...the MEC and NC shouldn't present any information to the membership prior to voting? Just send out a summary and let the slack group figure it out?
Yes...I saw both rounds of timeshare presentations that "were not sales jobs"

You're making me question if you watched them because anyone with a brain knew they were complete salesjobs.

How many concessions were specifically mentioned?

Was there any negative aspect to this deal ever mentioned?

Honest question...yes/no
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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by TheStig »

CPU2000 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:06 am How many concessions were specifically mentioned?

Was there any negative aspect to this deal ever mentioned?

Honest question...yes/no
Yes, the comprehensive summary sent on September 23rd detailed the changes to the profit sharing. This was discussed at the roadshows and covered in 'The Contact'. The reason given, as I'm sure you're aware, is that the MEC/NC believed that increases to wages were more beneficial to pilots than potential profit sharing. They stated that the company wanted to get rid of profit sharing all together and the solution found was to raise the floor at which it would be triggered.

The 10 year contract 'framework' was based around the pilots being treated as managers, if you will, where industry leading pay was traded for profit sharing based on the same metrics that management uses; B1 passes (ala management), J class deadheads, promotions (upgrades) based on growth with attached fleet growth contractual opt-out mechanisms (that was used to enter negotiations). The transition to ALPA represents a shift away from this, where the union is only focused on the objectives of its pilots (not management) where the benefits are supposed to trickle down to the pilots.

Obviously have different opinions of the rollout and roadshows. From what I saw the MEC and NC spent their time defending why they didn't achieve more gains, or why certain groups didn't see greater improvements than others, why improvements are being phased in and not immediate. What do you feel was given away? What concessions were made? I see a contract that is an improvement top to bottom.
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FNGYYZ
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by FNGYYZ »

Justfer2day wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:23 pm Blueontop
With respect:
1. Bare minimum would have been a 50%+1 ratification vote.
2. Not sure how long you have been at AC, but if you missed the TA1and then the 10 year framework roadshows, you can't imagine what "finger on the scales" looks like.
3. Given a 66% yes vote, it seems fairly unlikely that recall campaign would have anywhere near the political power for success
Do you think 66% are happy with this TA?

You don't think the way things are going and the complete lack of any change of respect whatsoever that members want the same MEC going forward?

You know the definition of insanity right?

Seems foolish to think the membership isn't going to want some significant changes.

And congrats on your 1st post!
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RAIM
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by RAIM »

TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:48 am
RAIM wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:07 am
TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:44 am The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.
Stig,

Can you explain to me how WestJet with only 2 rounds of bargaining, the first one being arbitrated, has almost the same pay now after making MORE than us as a low cost carrier.

THEN, they have better reserve and productivity rules?

How is that even possible??

Is arbitration really much worse and maybe the results are because WJ didn't practice the art of capitulation 3 days prior?
I don't claim to be an expert of WJ negotiations but in their first round they entered willingly into arbitration. The arbitrator awarded the pilots some gains but also allowed the company to continue operating Swoop with a separate seniority list under the condition that they couldn't operate out of YYZ or use the MAX aircraft (conditions the airline almost immediately ignored)? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lesson learned, in their second round of negotiations WJ ALPA knew that they couldn't trust an Arbitrator to secure the gains they desired and came to a last minute deal (without any threat of government interference). They secured pay gains but more importantly, scope over swoop and sunwing flying. I recall posters on this site thrashed them for not securing a world class contract and for capitulating.

In 2026 a WJ 12th year 737 Captain will be earning $304.90/hour and AC 12th year 737 Captains will be earning 337.33 +37.33 Nav/OVS (in September). At that time year 1 WJ will be 88.96 vs 94.62 at AC. Hopefully they can leapfrog AC pay once again as they will be behind in terms of pay.

Can you please explain how WJ has better reserve and productivity rules?

In the latest CA AC pilots secured improvements to reserve; with increased days off in low block hour months, removal of T days, the award steps need to be followed top to bottom before a reserve pilot can be reassigned, this allows reserve pilots to benefit from override etc, 24 hour release after assignment, seniority based RAP assignments.

What in their contract increases productivity? ADG, DPG, a 16 day cap on NB flying? Or is it that you feel entitled to socialized bidding.
TheStig,

Your posts are so biased it is truly hard to take you seriously. You puke out a bunch of bullshit from the "non salesjob" without knowing industry practice nor anything beyond the glossy brochure from the sales team.

I read the brochure littered with the words "improved", "new", "updated".

You do realize you can have BOTH a bonus & good pay. Name one airline that doesn't have an incentive program? You realize this is a massive concession right?

And the fact we are comparing to the low cost carrier of WestJet which wasn't even in the union's comparable document is comical.

Westjet has things like "long call" reserve. And Jazz has this thing called "blockholder rights" that make any of those gains you mentioned seem like a joke. And the fact I am comparing to a low cost & regional carrier only further proves how fucked up this is.

As for productivity, at least WestJet has a 1:3.75 TAFB guarantee versus our industry worst 1:3.5

Don't get me going on 50% Deadhead which is absolutely embarrassing. Remember...these are things we had OURSELVES before the rounds of concessions that we subsequently SECURED by thinking we are now managers. Managers that were so smart they produced a contract so bad even the Conservatives were supporting us publicly in the last round of negotiations.

So yeah Stig, a pretty big train wreck to digest but hey man it's all good. Flair paying more for new hires isn't our problem....its just our own pilots. But Yada Yada unity and Yada Yada we Will get em next time!
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Dash.Trash
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Dash.Trash »

thepoors wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:25 am
PeakLeverage wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:47 am
TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:44 am The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.
They sent the Port Workers to arbitration 8 days AFTER being on strike.

They were ON STRIKE causing $800 million dollars of damage A DAY.

Air Canada would cost the economy 10% of that. We capitaluated 3 days BEFORE the deadline.

Get your FACTS straight man.

I love all the confirmation bias fans looking so hard for validation of total capitulation
Exactly this. The company never felt ANY pain. They cancelled less than a handful of flights. Leverage was never used, it was thrown away.

That's why this MEC needs to burn.
If you think load factors and forward bookings dropping off a cliff is “never felt ANY pain” then I’ve got some oceanfront property in Regina to sell you…
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Dash.Trash
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Dash.Trash »

RAIM wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:29 pm
TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:48 am
RAIM wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:07 am

Stig,

Can you explain to me how WestJet with only 2 rounds of bargaining, the first one being arbitrated, has almost the same pay now after making MORE than us as a low cost carrier.

THEN, they have better reserve and productivity rules?

How is that even possible??

Is arbitration really much worse and maybe the results are because WJ didn't practice the art of capitulation 3 days prior?
I don't claim to be an expert of WJ negotiations but in their first round they entered willingly into arbitration. The arbitrator awarded the pilots some gains but also allowed the company to continue operating Swoop with a separate seniority list under the condition that they couldn't operate out of YYZ or use the MAX aircraft (conditions the airline almost immediately ignored)? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lesson learned, in their second round of negotiations WJ ALPA knew that they couldn't trust an Arbitrator to secure the gains they desired and came to a last minute deal (without any threat of government interference). They secured pay gains but more importantly, scope over swoop and sunwing flying. I recall posters on this site thrashed them for not securing a world class contract and for capitulating.

In 2026 a WJ 12th year 737 Captain will be earning $304.90/hour and AC 12th year 737 Captains will be earning 337.33 +37.33 Nav/OVS (in September). At that time year 1 WJ will be 88.96 vs 94.62 at AC. Hopefully they can leapfrog AC pay once again as they will be behind in terms of pay.

Can you please explain how WJ has better reserve and productivity rules?

In the latest CA AC pilots secured improvements to reserve; with increased days off in low block hour months, removal of T days, the award steps need to be followed top to bottom before a reserve pilot can be reassigned, this allows reserve pilots to benefit from override etc, 24 hour release after assignment, seniority based RAP assignments.

What in their contract increases productivity? ADG, DPG, a 16 day cap on NB flying? Or is it that you feel entitled to socialized bidding.
TheStig,

Your posts are so biased it is truly hard to take you seriously. You puke out a bunch of bullshit from the "non salesjob" without knowing industry practice nor anything beyond the glossy brochure from the sales team.

I read the brochure littered with the words "improved", "new", "updated".

You do realize you can have BOTH a bonus & good pay. Name one airline that doesn't have an incentive program? You realize this is a massive concession right?

And the fact we are comparing to the low cost carrier of WestJet which wasn't even in the union's comparable document is comical.

Westjet has things like "long call" reserve. And Jazz has this thing called "blockholder rights" that make any of those gains you mentioned seem like a joke. And the fact I am comparing to a low cost & regional carrier only further proves how fucked up this is.

As for productivity, at least WestJet has a 1:3.75 TAFB guarantee versus our industry worst 1:3.5

Don't get me going on 50% Deadhead which is absolutely embarrassing. Remember...these are things we had OURSELVES before the rounds of concessions that we subsequently SECURED by thinking we are now managers. Managers that were so smart they produced a contract so bad even the Conservatives were supporting us publicly in the last round of negotiations.

So yeah Stig, a pretty big train wreck to digest but hey man it's all good. Flair paying more for new hires isn't our problem....its just our own pilots. But Yada Yada unity and Yada Yada we Will get em next time!
If you’re going to bitch about something at least get your facts straight.

“Industry worst” TAFB is not 1:3.5. It’s 1:4.

1:3.5 would be a significant improvement. And WJ has 1:3.75… in 2026…
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RAIM
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by RAIM »

Dash.Trash wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:54 pm
RAIM wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:29 pm
TheStig wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:48 am

I don't claim to be an expert of WJ negotiations but in their first round they entered willingly into arbitration. The arbitrator awarded the pilots some gains but also allowed the company to continue operating Swoop with a separate seniority list under the condition that they couldn't operate out of YYZ or use the MAX aircraft (conditions the airline almost immediately ignored)? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lesson learned, in their second round of negotiations WJ ALPA knew that they couldn't trust an Arbitrator to secure the gains they desired and came to a last minute deal (without any threat of government interference). They secured pay gains but more importantly, scope over swoop and sunwing flying. I recall posters on this site thrashed them for not securing a world class contract and for capitulating.

In 2026 a WJ 12th year 737 Captain will be earning $304.90/hour and AC 12th year 737 Captains will be earning 337.33 +37.33 Nav/OVS (in September). At that time year 1 WJ will be 88.96 vs 94.62 at AC. Hopefully they can leapfrog AC pay once again as they will be behind in terms of pay.

Can you please explain how WJ has better reserve and productivity rules?

In the latest CA AC pilots secured improvements to reserve; with increased days off in low block hour months, removal of T days, the award steps need to be followed top to bottom before a reserve pilot can be reassigned, this allows reserve pilots to benefit from override etc, 24 hour release after assignment, seniority based RAP assignments.

What in their contract increases productivity? ADG, DPG, a 16 day cap on NB flying? Or is it that you feel entitled to socialized bidding.
TheStig,

Your posts are so biased it is truly hard to take you seriously. You puke out a bunch of bullshit from the "non salesjob" without knowing industry practice nor anything beyond the glossy brochure from the sales team.

I read the brochure littered with the words "improved", "new", "updated".

You do realize you can have BOTH a bonus & good pay. Name one airline that doesn't have an incentive program? You realize this is a massive concession right?

And the fact we are comparing to the low cost carrier of WestJet which wasn't even in the union's comparable document is comical.

Westjet has things like "long call" reserve. And Jazz has this thing called "blockholder rights" that make any of those gains you mentioned seem like a joke. And the fact I am comparing to a low cost & regional carrier only further proves how fucked up this is.

As for productivity, at least WestJet has a 1:3.75 TAFB guarantee versus our industry worst 1:3.5

Don't get me going on 50% Deadhead which is absolutely embarrassing. Remember...these are things we had OURSELVES before the rounds of concessions that we subsequently SECURED by thinking we are now managers. Managers that were so smart they produced a contract so bad even the Conservatives were supporting us publicly in the last round of negotiations.

So yeah Stig, a pretty big train wreck to digest but hey man it's all good. Flair paying more for new hires isn't our problem....its just our own pilots. But Yada Yada unity and Yada Yada we Will get em next time!
If you’re going to bitch about something at least get your facts straight.

“Industry worst” TAFB is not 1:3.5. It’s 1:4.

1:3.5 would be a significant improvement. And WJ has 1:3.75… in 2026…
You're absolutely right Dash.Trash...the TAFB ratio is industry trash just like our bonus plan...trash. 1:3.5 is industry rate at every single US legacy airline. Just like year 2 Percent of Captain pay is around 65% and Air Canada is at 33%. More trash.

Along with our joke of an average daily guarantee that kicks in 2027.

Problem is...the joke is all on of us...and ALPA.

"The end of the discount on pilot labour in Canada" :lol:
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Landingstrip
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Landingstrip »

porcsord wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:18 pm Tell me you got a PFO from Big Red without telling me you got a PFO from Big Red...
Lol what a sopping wet pretentious D bag. We all get it, your so well endowed bro.
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‘Bob’
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by ‘Bob’ »

Landingstrip wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:13 am
porcsord wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:18 pm Tell me you got a PFO from Big Red without telling me you got a PFO from Big Red...
Lol what a sopping wet pretentious D bag. We all get it, your so well endowed bro.
Such a classy response from someone with a high IQ.. lol.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by ‘Bob’ »

Dash.Trash wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:51 pm
thepoors wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:25 am
PeakLeverage wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:47 am

They sent the Port Workers to arbitration 8 days AFTER being on strike.

They were ON STRIKE causing $800 million dollars of damage A DAY.

Air Canada would cost the economy 10% of that. We capitaluated 3 days BEFORE the deadline.

Get your FACTS straight man.

I love all the confirmation bias fans looking so hard for validation of total capitulation
Exactly this. The company never felt ANY pain. They cancelled less than a handful of flights. Leverage was never used, it was thrown away.

That's why this MEC needs to burn.
If you think load factors and forward bookings dropping off a cliff is “never felt ANY pain” then I’ve got some oceanfront property in Regina to sell you…
Hey… I remember this part. It’s when the Feds bail them out again.

Never felt any pain.
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Landingstrip
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Landingstrip »

‘Bob’ wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 1:56 pm
Landingstrip wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:13 am
porcsord wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:18 pm Tell me you got a PFO from Big Red without telling me you got a PFO from Big Red...
Lol what a sopping wet pretentious D bag. We all get it, your so well endowed bro.
Such a classy response from someone with a high IQ.. lol.

Firstly I never proclaimed to be high IQ. Secondly, why are you defending this guy?? The only time he had to chime in to a conversation was to insult? If he can dish it why can't he take it?
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Dockjock »

Looks like I’m keeping just over 40% of mine. Insane country we have here. I’ve just paid more in tax than I made in my first two years of flying combined. Is this what success feels like.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by eurotrash »

This is what it feels like when you negotiate wage gains and barely any quality of life improvements

Your money goes to the government & ALPA and your time (and life) goes to the company

:?
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Hangry »

eurotrash wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 7:08 am This is what it feels like when you negotiate wage gains and barely any quality of life improvements

Your money goes to the government & ALPA and your time (and life) goes to the company

:?
EXACTLY. What a pathetic bunch of cowards AC pilots. 67% :roll:
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Optimus Primer »

Air Canada pilots are so important that the strongest federal government in a generation would, of course, order them back to work. It's not like there are other airlines or cargo operators in this country. You see, when Canada Post workers go on strike for over 3 weeks during peak holiday season, it doesn't matter because sending mail or getting parcels for Christmas is lame, and those workers are way less important than Air Canada pilots. It's a good thing you guys voted yes on your World Class Contract™ You guys had zero leverage and besides, picketing in unity with your fellow colleagues is such a waste of time. A strong 97% "yes" is the same as a weak 67% "yes" if you just flip the 9 upside down anyway.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Aerkavo »

Optimus Primer wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:11 am Air Canada pilots are so important that the strongest federal government in a generation would, of course, order them back to work. It's not like there are other airlines or cargo operators in this country. You see, when Canada Post workers go on strike for over 3 weeks during peak holiday season, it doesn't matter because sending mail or getting parcels for Christmas is lame, and those workers are way less important than Air Canada pilots. It's a good thing you guys voted yes on your World Class Contract™ You guys had zero leverage and besides, picketing in unity with your fellow colleagues is such a waste of time. A strong 97% "yes" is the same as a weak 67% "yes" if you just flip the 9 upside down anyway.
Just wondering - how long are you going to carry this with you? Are you going to be one of those sad individuals who, 40 years after something happens, is still bitching and moaning about it?

I've heard your opinion and complaints, we've all heard it a hundred times. The truth is that the majority of the pilots decided to accept the TA. The government, the company and the union played their cards and made their moves and this is the end result. You can choose to believe that the union made their best effort and took the advice of their outside expert consultants when recommending the TA or spend the rest of your life constantly re-posting your same opinion that it should have happened differently.

For the record - I voted NO. But, the majority voted to accept. So, now, time to move on. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life telling everyone my opinion about they way it should have gone.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by 3rdWorldClassPilot »

Aerkavo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:09 am
Optimus Primer wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:11 am Air Canada pilots are so important that the strongest federal government in a generation would, of course, order them back to work. It's not like there are other airlines or cargo operators in this country. You see, when Canada Post workers go on strike for over 3 weeks during peak holiday season, it doesn't matter because sending mail or getting parcels for Christmas is lame, and those workers are way less important than Air Canada pilots. It's a good thing you guys voted yes on your World Class Contract™ You guys had zero leverage and besides, picketing in unity with your fellow colleagues is such a waste of time. A strong 97% "yes" is the same as a weak 67% "yes" if you just flip the 9 upside down anyway.
Just wondering - how long are you going to carry this with you? Are you going to be one of those sad individuals who, 40 years after something happens, is still bitching and moaning about it?

I've heard your opinion and complaints, we've all heard it a hundred times. The truth is that the majority of the pilots decided to accept the TA. The government, the company and the union played their cards and made their moves and this is the end result. You can choose to believe that the union made their best effort and took the advice of their outside expert consultants when recommending the TA or spend the rest of your life constantly re-posting your same opinion that it should have happened differently.

For the record - I voted NO. But, the majority voted to accept. So, now, time to move on. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life telling everyone my opinion about they way it should have gone.
Forgive but don't forget.

The leadership team fuked up
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by PeakLeverage »

This TA was voted in yes...but not because the majority actually believed this deal was good. It was rammed down their throat worst than anything Heather Brooke ever took.

There needs to be changes to the leadership if there is going to be any hope of a re-energized group in the future. Many have lost faith because surprise surprise being deep throated leaves a nasty after taste.

If there is going to be any success next round...there needs to be some appreciation of the let down that occurred. Most aren't just simply going to get over it.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Blueontop »

Aerkavo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:09 am
Optimus Primer wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:11 am Air Canada pilots are so important that the strongest federal government in a generation would, of course, order them back to work. It's not like there are other airlines or cargo operators in this country. You see, when Canada Post workers go on strike for over 3 weeks during peak holiday season, it doesn't matter because sending mail or getting parcels for Christmas is lame, and those workers are way less important than Air Canada pilots. It's a good thing you guys voted yes on your World Class Contract™ You guys had zero leverage and besides, picketing in unity with your fellow colleagues is such a waste of time. A strong 97% "yes" is the same as a weak 67% "yes" if you just flip the 9 upside down anyway.
Just wondering - how long are you going to carry this with you? Are you going to be one of those sad individuals who, 40 years after something happens, is still bitching and moaning about it?

I've heard your opinion and complaints, we've all heard it a hundred times. The truth is that the majority of the pilots decided to accept the TA. The government, the company and the union played their cards and made their moves and this is the end result. You can choose to believe that the union made their best effort and took the advice of their outside expert consultants when recommending the TA or spend the rest of your life constantly re-posting your same opinion that it should have happened differently.

For the record - I voted NO. But, the majority voted to accept. So, now, time to move on. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life telling everyone my opinion about they way it should have gone.
Ahhh the seeds of apathy
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JHR
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by JHR »

Air Canada Pilots..." we won't even get 'em next time!"
:lol:
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FNGYYZ
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by FNGYYZ »

Blueontop wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 3:55 pm
Aerkavo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:09 am
Optimus Primer wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:11 am Air Canada pilots are so important that the strongest federal government in a generation would, of course, order them back to work. It's not like there are other airlines or cargo operators in this country. You see, when Canada Post workers go on strike for over 3 weeks during peak holiday season, it doesn't matter because sending mail or getting parcels for Christmas is lame, and those workers are way less important than Air Canada pilots. It's a good thing you guys voted yes on your World Class Contract™ You guys had zero leverage and besides, picketing in unity with your fellow colleagues is such a waste of time. A strong 97% "yes" is the same as a weak 67% "yes" if you just flip the 9 upside down anyway.
Just wondering - how long are you going to carry this with you? Are you going to be one of those sad individuals who, 40 years after something happens, is still bitching and moaning about it?

I've heard your opinion and complaints, we've all heard it a hundred times. The truth is that the majority of the pilots decided to accept the TA. The government, the company and the union played their cards and made their moves and this is the end result. You can choose to believe that the union made their best effort and took the advice of their outside expert consultants when recommending the TA or spend the rest of your life constantly re-posting your same opinion that it should have happened differently.

For the record - I voted NO. But, the majority voted to accept. So, now, time to move on. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life telling everyone my opinion about they way it should have gone.
Ahhh the seeds of apathy
No kidding. What a garbage post. Apathy is literally the cancer to a union.
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by cjp »

Look at how long the federal government has sat back on the Canada Post strike.

I guess they don't consider mail essential.
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Aerkavo
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Re: Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

Post by Aerkavo »

FNGYYZ wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:22 pm
No kidding. What a garbage post. Apathy is literally the cancer to a union.
I take the time to post my sincere thoughts and you call it garbage? Do you ever wonder why people might not respond to you in the way you want? Here's a hint - try being serious and respectful rather than childish and insulting.

I participated in all the surveys, information pickets and roadshow events. I spent hours on the flightdeck arguing my points and hours posting on various forums. Spent hours in pubs on layovers and in the crashpad and hours on the phone with various reps. Really don't think I can be accused of apathy.

What you see here is not apathy, it's acceptance. At this point there's nothing else to do. Yes, I know, now someone will post the "AC pilots; we'll get 'em next time" for the hundredth time. It's old. It's worn out.

Look, it's your choice; accept the result and try to figure out how to do it better next time or spend the next decade posting and reposting the same angry insults. Doing the latter will cause you more pain than anyone else. Years from now you'll realize the caustic damage from ruminating in the bitterness and wish you hadn't. But, as I said, your choice.
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