So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

[dALre]

For anyone who made a move from other 705 operators(WS, POE, AT, etc.) to AC, how do you actually like there?

I’m at a fast growing 705 with pretty great seniority and just wanna hear out if it’s actually greener or just same 705 over again not worth for losing the seniority.


Appreciate and happy new year aviators

[Nick678]

Just my 2 cents but if you’re happy where you are stay. Junior schedules are pretty tough. Movement has slowed down quite a bit, this might change in the summer bid however. Pay is still low for the cities we have bases and upgrade times are getting longer.

[stall]

AC is basically a ponzi scheme where the bottom part of the pyramid pays for the top.

Doesn't have to be this way but with world worst reserve rules, horrific percent of captain pay which leads to embarrassing junior FO / RP pay rates and a reliance on growth to cover up these faults, it's a tough place to start.

It was hoped ALPA would improve the plight of the junior folks but the current MEC leadership did a masterclass job of selling them out.

If you got a good 2nd job secured, you might consider a start at AC. Otherwise probably best to stay put.

[altiplano]

It's all timing.

[Rooster69]

From an old timer.


Is the grass greener?


There are pro and cons to every job. A lot of whet is right for you depends on your ambitions, frame of mind and personal life. How many years would you be at AC? Martied? Young family? Is it right for you? Can you see yourself doing your current job for 20, 25, 30 years? On of the big question is : Can you afford the low pay for the first few years? After the flat pay years, the renumeration goes up yearly. As your seniority increases so does your ability to get a better lifestyle.
I wouldn’t call it a ponzi scheme. Not like you are going to jump in to any new company and immediately have the top pay, schedule and every holiday off. Junior reserve sucks, being a junior block holder sucks. Smaller the equipment, smaller the paycheque. Stay in the right seat for higher seniority or move over to left seat for higher paycheque.

There are 3 types of airlines within AC.
Wide Body
Narrow body
Rouge

Each is uniquely different in flying and lifestyle.

Reserve..ugh.
Reserve on narrow body heinously worse than Reserve on wide body. But knowing the rules will greatly improve how you won’t get duped by crew Sched. Most pilots don’t know the Reserve rules and rely on Cres Sched’s honesty. This intern leads to a lot of fuckery.


Look, the early years will suck. Being at the bottom of any seniority list sucks. There is no way around it.

[Aerkavo]

Look, the early years will suck. Being at the bottom of any seniority list sucks. There is no way around it.

This is the often misunderstood aspect of the job. I recently talked to a junior, new hire bus driver for a municipal transit system. He told me it was a pretty good job after you'd put in about 10 years! As a new guy however it was pretty bad - he was working bad shifts (late night) on crappy routes and every weekend. Meanwhile the senior guys were working 8:00am-4:00pm, M-F, doing the easy, jammy routes and getting paid triple what he was.

In my case I delayed my application to AC because I had a good deal going at my previous job. I essentially traded 9 years of pay at the highest AC scale for the 9 years of pay and lifestyle at my previous job. To say this was a mistake is a gross understatement. It did give me a slightly better QoL for those years I stayed at the previous company but the financial hit (when I can bear to look at it) is massive.

A person has to look at the big picture - hard to do.

[sstaurus]

Ponzi scheme? I guess you could say that about any seniority based industry then where you work your way up. Many new guys just can't get over the first few years... like mentioned previously. You need to look big picture.

Would you rather rip off the band aid now, or in 10 years? All depends on your personal timeline and how much time you've got left.

[Man_in_the_sky]

The grass will always be greener where you water it. If you are asking for professional advice on AvCanada, you might end up having many weird answer!

On a constructive note, AC offers different kind of flying, either domestic, cargo or international. Of course year 1-2 are bad, 3-4 improved but still need loves, but once you reach year 5, the lowest you will make is 170K unless you decide to work as RP, and year 5 as RP means 9-10 days a month max...

we're treated as number wich is a good thing, there's never pressure to do something you don't feel like doing. Manager don't know your name, we don't know theirs. perfect match

[30westpirate]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

I’ve yet to meet anyone that has put in 5-10 years and are regretting they came to AC.

[Man_in_the_sky]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

[Aerkavo]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

Not from everyone but from some I've heard it like this:

They want the pay to be equal or greater to any other company but also want the career potential that comes from a large established carrier. They want socialized bidding when they are junior but also want seniority bidding when they get senior so they can get all their vacation, days-off and lifestyle preferences.

The fact is that Porter, Flair, etc must pay more than AC because they don't have the same career potential to offer. They are a good option for someone who is older, coming back from overseas or someone younger who is waiting for the call from WS or AC.

Both socialized bidding or seniority bidding for schedule are good options for a company and pilot group but once one is chosen it's almost impossible to change without adversely affecting half the group. AC uses a seniority based system. A newhire has to invest the time to get the benefit. Later in a pilot's career they will earn more and have a better QoL compared to other Canadian options. Each person must do the math and decide if this works for them.

[flyingcanuck]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

was wondering how long it would take for this to come up

[jpilot77]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

Not from everyone but from some I've heard it like this:

They want the pay to be equal or greater to any other company but also want the career potential that comes from a large established carrier. They want socialized bidding when they are junior but also want seniority bidding when they get senior so they can get all their vacation, days-off and lifestyle preferences.

The fact is that Porter, Flair, etc must pay more than AC because they don't have the same career potential to offer. They are a good option for someone who is older, coming back from overseas or someone younger who is waiting for the call from WS or AC.

Both socialized bidding or seniority bidding for schedule are good options for a company and pilot group but once one is chosen it's almost impossible to change without adversely affecting half the group. AC uses a seniority based system. A newhire has to invest the time to get the benefit. Later in a pilot's career they will earn more and have a better QoL compared to other Canadian options. Each person must do the math and decide if this works for them.

The other consequence of socialized bidding is usually much longer upgrades.

[cdnavater]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

I’ve literally had conversations with the younger generation who think because my kids are grown and out of the house, I should willingly give up Christmas vacation so they can spend time with their young children. The fact my children were young and I wasn’t always home plays no factor in this desire to have it now.
The thought of this never ever crossed my mind because I joined a seniority based company and had no disillusion about what that meant!
My kids are married and still come home and wake up in their childhood rooms for Christmas morning, it gives my wife and I great joy that our 30 something kids still want to spend Christmas with us, someday it may mean the grandkids are here too or it could mean we will be at their homes but either way, just because I’m older with older kids doesn’t mean I should want to spend that time with my family now that I can.
When I explained this to them, I’m met with looks of derision as though I’m selfish for thinking this way, that is the generation we’re dealing with!
Cue the boomer comments!

[FNGYYZ]

Ponzi schemes lure people with promises of high returns. The scheme's organizers use the funds from new people to pay returns to the older, more senior people. 

Ponzi schemes require a constant flow of new people to thrive. When new people stop coming, while everyone suffers, it is the newest people that suffer the most.

Sounds like a ponzi scheme to me.

Every time someone rationalizes the poor starting pay, think "ponzi scheme"

Every time someone thinks the young generation need to pay their dues at the bottom... think "ponzi scheme"

Every time you look at how true global airline contracts have young pilots who have respectable working conditions with productivity guarantees while flying domestic, think "ponzi scheme"

This scheme of course serves only one purpose...to save the company money while providing rationalizations for poor negotiating outcomes.

[Canadianpilot2024]

[quote=30westpirate post_id=1329262 time=1735750858 user_id=107088]
Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

I’ve yet to meet anyone that has put in 5-10 years and are regretting they came to AC.
[/quote]

And every pilot I’ve flown with that has 10+ years here and can’t wait to retire.

It’s a shitty company, with a terrible QOL. The job is ok, but good luck working less than 16 days a month and if you’re a commuter good luck making any money for the first while.

And if you’re based in Yvr or yyz, could luck owning a home and not being house poor.

As far as airlines go, it’s definitely the worst I’ve worked being a jr pilot and a commuter. You have no time to plan or have a life! And you’re broke!

Quick upgrades and big metal are nice carrots but nothing is guaranteed. It be a shame leaving a company where you’re happy then being forced to move to yyz and being stuck there when the music stops.

Most guys I fly with are happy with the money, and what that provides but can’t really praise anything else with the company.

It’s a dysfunctional bloated mess. (Aeronet, pbs, report link, sops, equipment bids, best fit rap periods, vacation credit, etc)

[ant_321]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

I’ve literally had conversations with the younger generation who think because my kids are grown and out of the house, I should willingly give up Christmas vacation so they can spend time with their young children. The fact my children were young and I wasn’t always home plays no factor in this desire to have it now.
The thought of this never ever crossed my mind because I joined a seniority based company and had no disillusion about what that meant!
My kids are married and still come home and wake up in their childhood rooms for Christmas morning, it gives my wife and I great joy that our 30 something kids still want to spend Christmas with us, someday it may mean the grandkids are here too or it could mean we will be at their homes but either way, just because I’m older with older kids doesn’t mean I should want to spend that time with my family now that I can.
When I explained this to them, I’m met with looks of derision as though I’m selfish for thinking this way, that is the generation we’re dealing with!
Cue the boomer comments!

I don’t think you should be expected to but I certainly respect the guys that do. I willingly worked every Xmas before I had kids when I didn’t have to and Intend to work Xmas again once they’re grown. A 30 year old doesn’t care what day on the calendar you celebrate Xmas a 10 year old does. I worked with senior pilots with older kids every Xmas as an FO. Maybe it’s a company culture thing.

[cdnavater]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

I’ve literally had conversations with the younger generation who think because my kids are grown and out of the house, I should willingly give up Christmas vacation so they can spend time with their young children. The fact my children were young and I wasn’t always home plays no factor in this desire to have it now.
The thought of this never ever crossed my mind because I joined a seniority based company and had no disillusion about what that meant!
My kids are married and still come home and wake up in their childhood rooms for Christmas morning, it gives my wife and I great joy that our 30 something kids still want to spend Christmas with us, someday it may mean the grandkids are here too or it could mean we will be at their homes but either way, just because I’m older with older kids doesn’t mean I should want to spend that time with my family now that I can.
When I explained this to them, I’m met with looks of derision as though I’m selfish for thinking this way, that is the generation we’re dealing with!
Cue the boomer comments!

I don’t think you should be expected to but I certainly respect the guys that do. I willingly worked every Xmas before I had kids when I didn’t have to and Intend to work Xmas again once they’re grown. A 30 year old doesn’t care what day on the calendar you celebrate Xmas a 10 year old does. I worked with senior pilots with older kids every Xmas as an FO. Maybe it’s a company culture thing.

You haven’t met my oldest daughter then(obviously), she still wakes up the whole house bright and early, she loves Christmas and gets it from my wife who LOVES Christmas. If I wasn’t home but could be, I’d be on my way to the dog house when I did get home.
The point though, is everyone has their reasons for wanting to be home at Christmas and should not be criticized for doing so when they can finally hold it off. But I’ve heard very ignorant comments in the crew room about so and so not working even though he has no kids or whatever, to that I say, if you don’t like how seniority works, go somewhere that it doesn’t matter

[30westpirate]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

I’ve yet to meet anyone that has put in 5-10 years and are regretting they came to AC.

And every pilot I’ve flown with that has 10+ years here and can’t wait to retire.

It’s a shitty company, with a terrible QOL. The job is ok, but good luck working less than 16 days a month and if you’re a commuter good luck making any money for the first while.

And if you’re based in Yvr or yyz, could luck owning a home and not being house poor.

As far as airlines go, it’s definitely the worst I’ve worked being a jr pilot and a commuter. You have no time to plan or have a life! And you’re broke!

Quick upgrades and big metal are nice carrots but nothing is guaranteed. It be a shame leaving a company where you’re happy then being forced to move to yyz and being stuck there when the music stops.

Most guys I fly with are happy with the money, and what that provides but can’t really praise anything else with the company.

It’s a dysfunctional bloated mess. (Aeronet, pbs, report link, sops, equipment bids, best fit rap periods, vacation credit, etc)

There also many who have fully funded pensions over 60 and are staying till 65. If ITF didn’t exist the retirement numbers would halt to a grind.

[tupues]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

I’ve yet to meet anyone that has put in 5-10 years and are regretting they came to AC.

Not „great“ pay, but pay you can life from and sustain a family - I.e. fair pay. Or come up with some decent scheduling and reserve rules that don’t force you to live is some of the most expensive cities in North America.

Look at the bright side though, many of our FOs wake up at their parents home at Christmas in their 30s too because their basement is all they can afford lol, so in a way we’re doing the boomer captains who get Christmas off a favor lol

[cdnavater]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

I’ve yet to meet anyone that has put in 5-10 years and are regretting they came to AC.

Not „great“ pay, but pay you can life from and sustain a family - I.e. fair pay. Or come up with some decent scheduling and reserve rules that don’t force you to live is some of the most expensive cities in North America.

Look at the bright side though, many of our FOs wake up at their parents home at Christmas in their 30s too because their basement is all they can afford lol, so in a way we’re doing the boomer captains who get Christmas off a favor lol

Well in that sense, ummm, thanks.

[Daxet]

those younger generation are expecting to be given everything for free without putting the effort

Into I’m curious what the cutoff is for what qualifies as “the younger generation”…

I’m joining AC this month; like another poster I put it off for 10 years longer than I probably should have but in that time chose $$$ and QOL while my kids were young while others made the jump and took the hit. I waited until now so that I’d be in a position where making the move was a slightly more responsible choice for my family despite the 75% starting pay hit.

I am joining now (Almost 40yo) knowing full well what being at the BOTL is going to mean and the sacrifices that will come with it. TBH one of my greatest fears in being BOTL is getting into the aircraft and being lumped in with the “new generation” instant gratification crowd. Yes I’m a millennial but came through the industry in a much more “old school” way and definitely align more in that direction.

In the past before I had kids and even after until they were around 3yo I’d volunteer to cover Christmas for the other men and women that had older kids or to whom Christmas was important. Doing so without any expectation of the favour being returned. Seniority is what it is, if an older guy wants to spend it with his adult kids or grandchildren, all the power to them. This coming from a guy with 4 kids under the age of 13.

Anyway, long story short I’m really hoping not to be painted with the entitled newbie generation brush.

[Flyboy736]

Instant gratification, that’s what some of the new hires are looking for. Great schedule, great pay from the onset.

Not from everyone but from some I've heard it like this:

They want the pay to be equal or greater to any other company but also want the career potential that comes from a large established carrier. They want socialized bidding when they are junior but also want seniority bidding when they get senior so they can get all their vacation, days-off and lifestyle preferences.

The fact is that Porter, Flair, etc must pay more than AC because they don't have the same career potential to offer. They are a good option for someone who is older, coming back from overseas or someone younger who is waiting for the call from WS or AC.

Both socialized bidding or seniority bidding for schedule are good options for a company and pilot group but once one is chosen it's almost impossible to change without adversely affecting half the group. AC uses a seniority based system. A newhire has to invest the time to get the benefit. Later in a pilot's career they will earn more and have a better QoL compared to other Canadian options. Each person must do the math and decide if this works for them.

Crazy some of the logic people put in on here to "justify" their views that the young are the ones who are crazy!

Yeah you are right- Delta, American and United pay the worst because they are the large established carriers. That's why Breeze, Jetblue and Alaska will always have to pay more since they don't have the same career potential to offer /s

The other guy using hindsight bias of massive expansion to justify 5-10 years of seniority will 'obviously' be gravy for today's new hires is also crazy. To go on average 50% on the list after that same time frame the airline will have to grow to 12,000 pilots within the next decade! Somehow they think that?

[goingnowherefast]

Nobody should expect a great schedule when first joining a seniority based company. If they do, that's on them for not understanding how seniority bidding works. Working Christmas or whatever, it's an airline that flies 365 days/yr. Keep one's expectations realistic.

It shouldn't be too much to expect reasonable starting pay and scheduling rules. This isn't an inter-generational issue either. Youngins would like the same opportunities their boomer parents were afforded. Millennials are the first generation that are worse off financially than their parents. Sometimes it comes out as misguided resentment.

The previous contract was a dumpster fire. The new one is still a dumpster, but at least it's not on fire anymore.

Is the grass greener on the other side of the fence? Lots of regional captains making $120,000/yr and supporting 2 or 3 kids. They can't afford the first couple years at AC. The AC pay at year 5 doesn't matter if the bank has their house by year 2.

[Aerkavo]

Crazy some of the logic people put in on here to "justify" their views that the young are the ones who are crazy!

I didn't say they were crazy - just telling you what I've been told. You decide if it's crazy or irrational.

Yeah you are right- Delta, American and United pay the worst because they are the large established carriers. That's why Breeze, Jetblue and Alaska will always have to pay more since they don't have the same career potential to offer /s

I don't know if you've noticed but we're in Canada. In the US market there are many large airlines that must compete with each other for pilots. In Canada this is not the case. AC doesn't pay more for newhires because they don't have to.