Delta bought some of WJ because the pilots are so cheap?

[Northerngravelhopper]

Just want to point out that your and most credit systems are based on flight time and duty time, for example your easy YYC-YEG-YYC pairing for 1.5 flight time has a duty time of at best around 5 hours assuming a quick turn. You are at work for around 120 hours on a 80 credit month, I use the simple 1.5 times for total duty, seems to work most months. So, adding a good credit four day pairing every month will add roughly 40 more hours of duty, a full time equivalent of a week.
While you are correct that you typically only fly 55-65 but you are spending far more time than that at work

Agreed completely.

It was more a response to those suggesting that dronepiper was "bragging' but still 'flying' 110 hours a month. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just wanting to get the proper perspective. Open Time is still working above your original schedule for sure.

For everyone it's a balance. I pick up very little Open Time as I like my time with my family. I flew with a 737 skipper who made over $600k last year (and yes, I saw his pay stub) picking up ridiculous amounts of OT. Good on him, but not what I'd choose. I made more money at my previous non-flying job but would spend around 3000 hours working a year. Sure I was in my own bed more than I am now, but I was away from home way more. I'll take my current lifestyle any day.

The internet is a funny place. Say something that's not overtly negative and somehow there's a need for hyperbole of how bad things are. I also spend a lot of time working with pilots from pilot associations across the world, not just the United States. It puts things into perspective. It makes the trolls on here sound ridiculous.

I don't think WJ is the best. It works nicely for me but we have lots of room for improvement on the next contract.

Sounds like JK. He shows everyone. But flying that much will cost you a marriage and alimony payments, so not sure if you actually get ahead.

[ThrustIdle]

Sort of.
Like Alaska, American, Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Southwest, Sun Country and United, the starting Open Time rate is 1.5x. However, like Alaska, American, Sun Country and United, the company often puts out Open Time at 2x.

JBI...these airlines absolutely pay more than 1.5 x.

Uhh, no they don't

American

In accordance with Section 15.L., the Company may designate at any time any sequence as a
premium pay sequence using a graduated premium scale. Such sequence(s) will pay a premium rate of either fifty percent (50%), seventy-five percent (75%), or one-hundred percent (100%), over the pilot's base hourly pay rate as specified in Section 3 (total is the base rate plus 50%, 75%, or
100% of the base rate), including international override as applicable. When designating a
sequence as a premium pay sequence, the Company will identify the premium option assigned to
each sequence.

Alaska

Premium flying will be paid at the rate of one hundred fifty percent (150%).
Within each Base Position, the Company may offer premium pay at two hundred
percent (200%) for three (3) Bid Periods within a calendar year.

United

20-H-4-a The Company shall create a lineholder premium pay Trip by attaching Add Pay to an Open Trip and
designating it as a lineholder premium pay Trip. At the Company’s discretion, such Add Pay shall be fifty
percent (50%), seventy-five percent (75%) or one-hundred percent (100%) of the Trip’s pay value.

You can look up the rest.

It would be really nice if posters on this forum could stick to opinions they have some expertise at instead of just giving 0 evidence of their inane positions.

Bede,

It is not opinion that WJ has the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America. That is merely fact.

Tack on industry worst 4 hrs duty periods guarantees, lowest percentage of captain pay for First Officers, and socialized bidding which saves the company from countless positions and further slows career progression, its hard to wrap my head around your defense that you think you are even in the same league.

[safetyfirst123]

I've heard it before that if Westjet went to seniority bidding, that they'd need to hire more pilots. I'm trying to wrap my head around why that would be? If it's true that it saves a bunch of money for the company, then it should be a strong bargaining position with the company if they want to keep it.

[737Drver]

Just want to point out that your and most credit systems are based on flight time and duty time, for example your easy YYC-YEG-YYC pairing for 1.5 flight time has a duty time of at best around 5 hours assuming a quick turn. You are at work for around 120 hours on a 80 credit month, I use the simple 1.5 times for total duty, seems to work most months. So, adding a good credit four day pairing every month will add roughly 40 more hours of duty, a full time equivalent of a week.
While you are correct that you typically only fly 55-65 but you are spending far more time than that at work

Agreed completely.

It was more a response to those suggesting that dronepiper was "bragging' but still 'flying' 110 hours a month. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just wanting to get the proper perspective. Open Time is still working above your original schedule for sure.

For everyone it's a balance. I pick up very little Open Time as I like my time with my family. I flew with a 737 skipper who made over $600k last year (and yes, I saw his pay stub) picking up ridiculous amounts of OT. Good on him, but not what I'd choose. I made more money at my previous non-flying job but would spend around 3000 hours working a year. Sure I was in my own bed more than I am now, but I was away from home way more. I'll take my current lifestyle any day.

The internet is a funny place. Say something that's not overtly negative and somehow there's a need for hyperbole of how bad things are. I also spend a lot of time working with pilots from pilot associations across the world, not just the United States. It puts things into perspective. It makes the trolls on here sound ridiculous.

I don't think WJ is the best. It works nicely for me but we have lots of room for improvement on the next contract.

Sounds like JK. He shows everyone. But flying that much will cost you a marriage and alimony payments, so not sure if you actually get ahead.

JK is a fucking idiot.

Very simple math...if WJ Skipper pay is $300 hr, and he managed 75 hrs a month, plus whatever in sick & vacation for a 1000 hrs, that's $300k a year.

To make another $300k, even at DOUBLE time, which WJ is 1.5, is another 500 hrs of pay needed. Thats over 40 hrs extra a month. I know "credit" & "flying hours" are different, but he must be right a CARs limits.

Two major issues with this:

1) makes pilots seem immune to fatigue and makes the joke on us when we try to combat fatigue as a profession

2) when you're trying to negotiate for more, the company will leak this joker's T4 into the public and WestJet pilots will be labeled as "greedy".

What a fucking joke this is

[Bede]

Bede,

It is not opinion that WJ has the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America. That is merely fact.

You're deflecting we were discussing premium pay multiples and claimed that all airlines other than WJ start at 2x. That's obviously not true.

Now onto this assertion, if you said WJ has lower compensation than all major US carriers, you'd be correct. Now, amongst the Canadian carriers, WJ is significantly ahead of all but AC.(I agree that's nothing to brag about as I'd never compare WJ to Flair/CdnNorth/etc.) Contract value between AC and WJ is a toss up. Depends a bit what assumptions you use.

[Bede]

Bede,

It is not opinion that WJ has the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America. That is merely fact.

You're deflecting. We were discussing premium pay multiples and claimed that all airlines other than WJ start at 2x. That's obviously not true.

Now onto this assertion, if you said WJ has lower compensation than all major US carriers, you'd be correct. Now, amongst the Canadian carriers, WJ is significantly ahead of all but AC.(I agree that's nothing to brag about as I'd never compare WJ to Flair/CdnNorth/etc.) Contract value between AC and WJ is a toss up. Depends a bit what assumptions you use.

[ThrustIdle]

Bede,

When you say "Contract value between AC and WJ is a toss up"...what exactly do you mean by this?

Career earnings without any regard to AC's significant Widebody fleet (highest % in North America)?

Factor in AC wages completely beat (not much for narrowbody) WJ?

Factor in the socialized bidding and the massive savings for the company?

AC paid long term disabilities?

AC more vacation?

Curious on where you're going with this.

[Bede]

Bede,

When you say "Contract value between AC and WJ is a toss up"...what exactly do you mean by this?

Good question.
First off, given upgrade times, assuming an AC FO assumes as quick as they can, an AC pilot will make much more over the course of their career than a WJ pilot. I'd argue though that the WJ pilot will have a much better QoL.

When costing a contract, you start easy: pay rate x minimum guarantee. Then add in things like pension, "special items" such as WJ's stock option replacement ($10298/yr for CA), benefit costs, vacation, STD/LTD (AC has GDIP), etc.
Then, you factor in QoL things that result in the company requiring more pilots. For example, if some program (such as a RIG) requires an extra 10 pilots, that cost is figured into the total as well.

Career earnings without any regard to AC's significant Widebody fleet (highest % in North America)?

You've touched on a really important point here. AC does indeed have the highest WB % at ~50%. Major US carriers are between 18% - 23% what this means is that about 25% of AC pilots are WB captains, whereas only the top ~10% of US pilots are WB captains. That's something we often forget. Yes a US WB captain makes far, far more than a Canadian one, but that opportunity is available, proportionally to far fewer US pilots.

[ThrustIdle]

Bede,

When you say "Contract value between AC and WJ is a toss up"...what exactly do you mean by this?

Good question.
First off, given upgrade times, assuming an AC FO assumes as quick as they can, an AC pilot will make much more over the course of their career than a WJ pilot. I'd argue though that the WJ pilot will have a much better QoL.

When costing a contract, you start easy: pay rate x minimum guarantee. Then add in things like pension, "special items" such as WJ's stock option replacement ($10298/yr for CA), benefit costs, vacation, STD/LTD (AC has GDIP), etc.
Then, you factor in QoL things that result in the company requiring more pilots. For example, if some program (such as a RIG) requires an extra 10 pilots, that cost is figured into the total as well.

Career earnings without any regard to AC's significant Widebody fleet (highest % in North America)?

You've touched on a really important point here. AC does indeed have the highest WB % at ~50%. Major US carriers are between 18% - 23% what this means is that about 25% of AC pilots are WB captains, whereas only the top ~10% of US pilots are WB captains. That's something we often forget. Yes a US WB captain makes far, far more than a Canadian one, but that opportunity is available, proportionally to far fewer US pilots.

So please answer how WJ is even close to AC?

[safetyfirst123]

I've seen this stated before, but I'm not sure why it's the case. Why does socialized bidding save the company a lot of money? Why would seniority bidding require hiring more pilots?

[Chateau]

I've seen this stated before, but I'm not sure why it's the case. Why does socialized bidding save the company a lot of money? Why would seniority bidding require hiring more pilots?

Think of building schedules as putting together a jigsaw type puzzle.

Pieces can only fit so much.

A true seniority based system will start from the most senior and build blocks based on preferences.

The left overs go to open time and then reserves / OT does it.

It is not as efficient as a socialized bidding system where the company has a lot of control over how schedules are built. The company's goal is to get as much flying done with as few pilots possible. Sociallzed bidding helps make this possible.

There is a reason all true legit contracts worth talking about have seniority based bidding.

[ads-b]

That’s false.

1 there’s no completely seniority based systems at large airlines. Think of them as seniority based socialized bidding systems.

2 there’s no uncrewed flying, depending on the parameters inputted into the system. You can tell it no open flying and it will fill all the flights.

3 letting a company build and run pairings in a socialized system is impossible to police/appeal.

Pros and cons for both. Only way to see what the difference is, you have to run the scheds side by side and see what the two systems produce.

[Bede]

So please answer how WJ is even close to AC?

I have not done a thorough costing comparing these latest contracts, but did do a WJ CA1 vs ACPA contract comparison. I can give you a rough outline though.

AC Top 737 CA: $311.89/hr * 900 hrs/yr guarantee = $280,701
WJ Top 737 CA: $297.46/hr * 930 hrs/yr guarantee = $276,638 + $10,298 stock option replacement lump sum = $286,936.

As far as I can see, that's the fixed compensation. Pension benefit is similar now. Vacation is slightly better at WJ. GDIP vs WJ LTD much better at AC. Work rules, ie RIGs, Average Daily Credit, etc., are a toss up.

We're in the same ball park for these 2 contracts. (In case you're wondering, WJ CA1 vs old ACPA contract was about 7% in favour of WJ).

[ThrustIdle]

So please answer how WJ is even close to AC?

I have not done a thorough costing comparing these latest contracts, but did do a WJ CA1 vs ACPA contract comparison. I can give you a rough outline though.

AC Top 737 CA: $311.89/hr * 900 hrs/yr guarantee = $280,701
WJ Top 737 CA: $297.46/hr * 930 hrs/yr guarantee = $276,638 + $10,298 stock option replacement lump sum = $286,936.

As far as I can see, that's the fixed compensation. Pension benefit is similar now. Vacation is slightly better at WJ. GDIP vs WJ LTD much better at AC. Work rules, ie RIGs, Average Daily Credit, etc., are a toss up.

We're in the same ball park for these 2 contracts. (In case you're wondering, WJ CA1 vs old ACPA contract was about 7% in favour of WJ).

Lol Bede...you are the king of WJ Kool aid drinking. I would not be sending any friends for career advice.

So many holes here but let's get to the main one. Massive overlook of FO pay rates. Considering the lack of progression to left seat at WJ, your post gusts into gas lighting. And of course no mention of WJ's laughable 787 rates.

Top FO 737 rates comparison:
WJ year 10: $166
AC year 10 (and 12): $202 & $216

That's a 26% difference alone and not even mentioning Nav pay which is another $8.

Come on Bede...be better

[737Drver]

My understanding of vacation.

WJ is credited a week as 5 days so credit value of week equals 5 times 4.5 hrs equals 22:30 of pay

AC is 7 times 3:45 so equals 26:15 of pay

So AC nearly 4 hrs more pay per week...

WJ definitely not better...

[Bede]

Considering the lack of progression to left seat at WJ, your post gusts into gas lighting.

Like I said:

First off, given upgrade times, assuming an AC FO upgrades as quick as they can, an AC pilot will make much more over the course of their career than a WJ pilot.

Massive overlook of FO pay rates.

Again, like I said. I'm not doing a comprehensive contract comparison. That takes days. Just gave you a brief example how it's done.

I have not done a thorough costing comparing these latest contracts, but did do a WJ CA1 vs ACPA contract comparison. I can give you a rough outline though.

And of course no mention of WJ's laughable 787 rates.

You were talking about the 737. I refuted that WJ has the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America.

It is not opinion that WJ has the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America. That is merely fact.

[JBI]

My understanding of vacation.

WJ is credited a week as 5 days so credit value of week equals 5 times 4.5 hrs equals 22:30 of pay

AC is 7 times 3:45 so equals 26:15 of pay

So AC nearly 4 hrs more pay per week...

WJ definitely not better...

For 2024/2025 and 2025/2026, AC is 2h55m credit for each vacation day = 20h25m of pay
For 2026/2027, it's 3h15m credit for each day = 22h45m of pay
In 2027/2028, it's 3h45m credit for each day = 26h15m of pay

AC gets 7 day weeks, but they don't count 1:1 for days worked.

WJ gets 5, but they do count 1:1 for days worked at 4.5 credits per day.

Means for both you're going to work around the same number of days in a month.

AC can bid 2 GDOs to put before/after, WJ automatically gets 3 GDOs before or after, outside of the monthly bid.

WJ earns vacation time slightly quicker than AC (ie, WJ gets 2 weeks in year 1, AC doesn't get vacation until year 2. WJ gets 3 weeks per year plus stats starting at year 3, AC at year 5. Wj gets 4 weeks vacation a year starting at year 7, AC at year 10). There are 5 years during the first 10 where a WJ pilot gets 1 extra week vacation. Not a big difference, but it is a slight difference.

To be clear, none of this is meant as "WJ > AC", just clarifying the details.

The thing to keep in mind is that WJ's 2023 contract was an improvement over its 2019 contract and AC's 2013+ contract. Air Canada's 2024 contract was an improvement over its 2013 contract and WJ's 2023 contract. That'S how it's SUPPOSED to work. One pilot group creates improvements and another is able to use it a leverage. When Air Canada's NB rates surpassed WJ's in AC's new contract, no WJ pilot was angry that their counterparts at AC make a couple bucks an hour more. In fact, most wished that AC's wages were even higher! That then becomes a very strong negotiation starting position for the next WJ contract.

[Tony Soprano]

So please answer how WJ is even close to AC?

I have not done a thorough costing comparing these latest contracts, but did do a WJ CA1 vs ACPA contract comparison. I can give you a rough outline though.

AC Top 737 CA: $311.89/hr * 900 hrs/yr guarantee = $280,701
WJ Top 737 CA: $297.46/hr * 930 hrs/yr guarantee = $276,638 + $10,298 stock option replacement lump sum = $286,936.

As far as I can see, that's the fixed compensation. Pension benefit is similar now. Vacation is slightly better at WJ. GDIP vs WJ LTD much better at AC. Work rules, ie RIGs, Average Daily Credit, etc., are a toss up.

We're in the same ball park for these 2 contracts. (In case you're wondering, WJ CA1 vs old ACPA contract was about 7% in favour of WJ).

Lol Bede...you are the king of WJ Kool aid drinking. I would not be sending any friends for career advice.

So many holes here but let's get to the main one. Massive overlook of FO pay rates. Considering the lack of progression to left seat at WJ, your post gusts into gas lighting. And of course no mention of WJ's laughable 787 rates.

Top FO 737 rates comparison:
WJ year 10: $166
AC year 10 (and 12): $202 & $216

That's a 26% difference alone and not even mentioning Nav pay which is another $8.

Come on Bede...be better

lol. I see reading isn't your strong suit.