Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

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wirez
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Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

Post by wirez »

I got this lovely e-mail today from Toronto Airways.
Here's an excerpt:

We have explored several methods of attracting new instructors, as well as attempting to keep the instructors we have for a little longer. As it is we are having difficulty in meeting our customer’s needs at this time, due to the shortage of instructors. Effective April 24, 2007 the instructor rate will be increased by $10.00 per hour at Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy. This increase will go directly into the pockets of the instructor, with none of it going to the company. Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy had to differentiate ourselves from other Flight Schools in order to attract the few instructors that are, or will become available. We had to increase the instructor pay rate, in order to not only meet our customer’s needs, but also attract the best qualified instructors that we can. Our instructors can now look forward to making a decent living, and maybe enabling them to look at instructing as a career.

With this change Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy are leading the

industry in creating a true career path for instructors.

I appreciate your understanding in this matter.
==============================

Any comments? At $70/hr, I think this will be the highest rate in Canada. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by mcrit »

Warms my heart! :lol:
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Crazymax
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Re: Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

Post by Crazymax »

wirez wrote:I got this lovely e-mail today from Toronto Airways.
Here's an excerpt:

We have explored several methods of attracting new instructors, as well as attempting to keep the instructors we have for a little longer. As it is we are having difficulty in meeting our customer’s needs at this time, due to the shortage of instructors. Effective April 24, 2007 the instructor rate will be increased by $10.00 per hour at Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy. This increase will go directly into the pockets of the instructor, with none of it going to the company. Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy had to differentiate ourselves from other Flight Schools in order to attract the few instructors that are, or will become available. We had to increase the instructor pay rate, in order to not only meet our customer’s needs, but also attract the best qualified instructors that we can. Our instructors can now look forward to making a decent living, and maybe enabling them to look at instructing as a career.

With this change Toronto Airways and Canadian Flight Academy are leading the

industry in creating a true career path for instructors.

I appreciate your understanding in this matter.
==============================

Any comments? At $70/hr, I think this will be the highest rate in Canada. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe, but it's a step in the right direction.

Max
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Post by Foxtrot »

:smt038

Finally!!

Won't it be nice when instructors can afford real mac and cheese? Or even an actual meal??
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Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

That is GREAT news!!! It's about time! :D
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Post by niss »

I think its great that instructors are getting more, but at what point does it become prohibitably expensive and there are no more customers?
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Post by just curious »

When it becomes prohibitably expensive, less flying schools will be in operation. It's Darwinism at it's finest.

Companies that do not have their infrastructure developed, and aircraft amortized will close their door.

Instructors will end up working for stronger companies, with less marginal aircraft and classroom facilities.
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Post by Hedley »

What do people here pay to have their cars repaired?

I'd be VERY surprised if the labour rate of any garage in downtown Toronto was less than $70/hr.

Funny how no one complains about the price of avgas, or insurance premiums :roll:

It's odd how people feel they are entitled to a free ride when it comes to flight instruction.
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Post by niss »

No but there would be a lot of unemployed instructors if ab initio costed $100/hr for instruction and another $130 for the plane.

I would think that a class 4 should make $20/hr and a class 3 $25-30. Its not the students fault they work so few hours.

I belive in paying for it all though, all the ground breifings, etc.

Face it, a class 4 and 3 is more or less an entry level position, 20 - 30 /hr is awesome, it just sucks that they arent working that many hours.
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Post by Hedley »

Hey niss, why don't you be part of the solution? Spend the $$$ to get your private, night, 200 hrs, commercial, class 4 instructor rating, and then see how much you like working for peanuts.

How much do people here pay for golf lessons? Do you die if you don't play golf well? I know a golf pro who earns $120,000/yr, so the argument that "no one can afford good training" doesn't fly.
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Post by niss »

Hedley,

If an instructor worked normal hours (40 a week) they would be making great money. The fact that they are not, isnt exactly my problem. Its a stepping stone. To pay that much for specialized training is one thing but that amount for ab initio is something else entirely.

Do you know what happens if I dont make enough money? I get a second or another job entirely.

I believe in paying instructors fairly, $20/hr is a very decent wage especially for someon who is just out of school, and this is their first flying job.

20/hr X 40 X52 = $41,600.00

I am jr. management in a small-med. business, i dont even make that much yet.

Im all for paying instructors more but within limits. Class 4 = $20/hr. If he wants more he should fly more, thats the way the world works.

Dont forget your automotive mechanic may charge you $60/hr, but that is coming with a garage, tools, lift, etc.

An instructor is by himself, the plane is extra.
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Post by Crazymax »

niss wrote: Do you know what happens if I dont make enough money? I get a second or another job entirely.
It might be hard for an instructor to do so. Even though an instructor is paid 20$ an hour, it is in his best interest to stay at the flight school during the day. (if he wants to fly)
niss wrote: Im all for paying instructors more but within limits. Class 4 = $20/hr. If he wants more he should fly more, thats the way the world works.
Sorry, doesn't work that way. You can't FORCE students to fly. And you don't get as many students as you want...
niss wrote: Dont forget your automotive mechanic may charge you $60/hr, but that is coming with a garage, tools, lift, etc.
I do believe I pay for my car parts though. That would be the equivalent to the "airplane" charges...

Max
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Post by just curious »

20/hr X 40 X52 = $41,600.00
Niss, I agree with your calculations. However, if it were that simple, I would have had 25000 hours of instructing time by now.

The sad reality is that an instructor that earns 20 an hour earns that for flight time. Ground is likely somewhat less.

With the best of intentions, an instructor can only fly 1200 hours a year. Very few do. A busy school might yield 6-700 hours per year. Maybe 500 of ground time, at say 15 an hour. Thus an enterprising instructor can at a busy school, rake in 21 and change thou.

To do this an instructor has to be at the school weekend and holidays, since that is when rec student are available. They have to be at work weekdays, because that is when the pro students train. They have to be there evenings because that is when groundschools run.

To rake in that breath-taking 21K the average instructor is at work 3000 hours a year.

When the worth of that time is discussed later in an Air Canada interview, the reward for that work is "Oh, I see you only flew 600 hours of instructing... our training shop guys usually have 1000"

There is far too much capacity in the training world these days. Halve the schools, and instructors would be able to make a decent living. People learning to fly would have more polished instructors.
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Post by VeRmiLLioN »

FYI, 3 months ago...Class 4 made $15/hour and Class 3 made $16/hr.

Instructor rate paid by the student was $60/hour.
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Post by niss »

I do believe I pay for my car parts though. That would be the equivalent to the "airplane" charges...
But the comparison of payment for a mechanic to an instructor isnt apt.

A mechanic brings more with him. I would compare the car parts to educational needs like, Books, Videos, Headsets, Etc.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. You can't FORCE students to fly. And you don't get as many students as you want...
Unfortunatly we think that aviation should exist outside the normal realms of reality. Lets use the mechanic analogy, If the garage doesnt have enough work to keep all the mechanics with full hours, no mechanic would in their right mind demand their wage to go up and for the garage to charge more per hour to subsidise his low hours.

Thats not the way the world works.
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Last edited by niss on Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SayWhat »

It's interesting the confluence of events. First we have the Ontario Ministry of Colleges trying to eliminate commercial instruction in Ontario. Now we have TA and CFA increasing rates by another $10 to attract instructors. How long before the commercial licence become so expensive that we have FOs complaining that on their wages, they can’t pay off their $80,000 of loans to get as far as they did? I’m not saying any of this is bad, but very interesting.
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Post by Crazymax »

niss wrote: But the comparison of payment for a mechanic to an instructor isnt apt.

A mechanic brings more with him. I would compare the car parts to educational needs like, Books, Videos, Headsets, Etc.
An Instructor brings his knowledge. Isn't that enough? It doesn't have to be material...
niss wrote: Unfortunatly we thing that aviation should exist outside the normal realms of reality. Lets use the mechanic analogy, If the garage doesnt have enough work to keep all the mechanics with full hours, no mechanic would in their right mind demand their wage to go up and for the garage to charge more per hour to subsidise his low hours.

Thats not the way the world works.
Mother nature might not want you to fly, students get sick, there is always something happening that will prevent you to fly. It's very hard to get paid for 40 hours a week yet, you have to spend the whole time at the flight school. Most flight instructors are self employed. I'll give you an example... My wife was working at a flight school a few years ago and she flew almost every time she could and every instructor at the school did the same, however, they didn't clear more than 20-25 hours a week. During a GREAT week, maybe 35. She was making less than 20K a year...

Max
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Post by niss »

Instructors hanging around the airport like that is a moot point. Getting paid fairly for your services is definately what they should be getting, however they should not be charging more to subsidise for the hours they are not flying. That is bullshit. If a student is taking your time with briefings then you should get paid, but if you are hanging around the airport waiting for a student why should you get paid for that? Unless your school is making you stay there all day everyday then they should pay you a salary.

Instructors need to get paid fair wages for the hours that they work, not exhorberant wages to cover the hours they dont.
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Post by Crazymax »

niss wrote:Instructors hanging around the airport like that is a moot point. Getting paid fairly for your services is definately what they should be getting, however they should not be charging more to subsidise for the hours they are not flying. That is bullshit. If a student is taking your time with briefings then you should get paid, but if you are hanging around the airport waiting for a student why should you get paid for that? Unless your school is making you stay there all day everyday then they should pay you a salary.

Instructors need to get paid fair wages for the hours that they work, not exhorberant wages to cover the hours they dont.
What is a fair wage? I think 70$ an hour is not fair.... For the Instructor... They deserve more.

Max
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Post by niss »

For Ab Initio, thats rediculous!

Lets say that the instructor is getting $70 an hour to fly that means that the flight school is going to charge at least $140 per instructor, factor in $130 for the plane.

$270 per dual flying hour.
TC REQUIREMENTS
Groundschool: 40 hours
Written Exam: 60%
Flight Time: 45 hours
----- Dual - 17 hours
- 3 hours cross-country
- 5 hours instrument flight
-
Solo - 12 hours
- 5 hours cross-country
- 1 - 150 nautical mile cross country
17 X $270 = $4590.00
12 X $130 = $1560.00
--------------------------
29 Hrs = $6150.00

Student still needs min. 16 more hours. So lets do a 50/50 solo/dual.

8 X $270 = $2160.00
8 X $130 = $1040.00
------------------------
16 Hrs = $3200.00

45 hours minimum costs $6150 + $3200 = $9350.00.

Lets add another 8 hours of dual and 4 hours of solo to bring it up to something more of the norm.

8 X $270 = $2160.00
4 X $130 = $520.00
-------------------------
12 hrs = $2688.00

Min. 45 hrs + 12 Extra = $2680 + $9350 = $12,030.00

Groundschool lets assume something like $500.00 to cover the increase in instructor wages.

So now a PPL costs $12,530.00 because the min. fair wage for a Class 4 in your opinion is $70.00

Now let me ask you this, where the hell are the students? How many people would get into it when they see that the Private alone usally starts at around $12,530.00?

For what it costs me to get my PPL at that rate, I could go learn a trade where I would make a decent wage for the hours I work.
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Post by Crazymax »

niss wrote:For Ab Initio, thats rediculous!

Lets say that the instructor is getting $70 an hour to fly that means that the flight school is going to charge at least $140 per instructor, factor in $130 for the plane.

$270 per dual flying hour.
TC REQUIREMENTS
Groundschool: 40 hours
Written Exam: 60%
Flight Time: 45 hours
----- Dual - 17 hours
- 3 hours cross-country
- 5 hours instrument flight
-
Solo - 12 hours
- 5 hours cross-country
- 1 - 150 nautical mile cross country
17 X $270 = $4590.00
12 X $130 = $1560.00
--------------------------
29 Hrs = $6150.00

Student still needs min. 16 more hours. So lets do a 50/50 solo/dual.

8 X $270 = $2160.00
8 X $130 = $1040.00
------------------------
16 Hrs = $3200.00

45 hours minimum costs $6150 + $3200 = $9350.00.

Lets add another 8 hours of dual and 4 hours of solo to bring it up to something more of the norm.

8 X $270 = $2160.00
4 X $130 = $520.00
-------------------------
12 hrs = $2688.00

Min. 45 hrs + 12 Extra = $2680 + $9350 = $12,030.00

Groundschool lets assume something like $500.00 to cover the increase in instructor wages.

So now a PPL costs $12,530.00 because the min. fair wage for a Class 4 in your opinion is $70.00

Now let me ask you this, where the hell are the students? How many people would get into it when they see that the Private alone usally starts at around $12,530.00?

For what it costs me to get my PPL at that rate, I could go learn a trade where I would make a decent wage for the hours I work.
A descent school shouldn't take half of the instructor's pay. Maybe 20 bucks out of it for insurance.

And 12000$ for a PPL is not that much money if you compare prices all over the world. If it was more expensive, maybe lazy students would kick they butt so they can pass their PPL with the minimum 45 hours vice the 100 hours some take...

Max
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Post by Hedley »

Golf pro's earn $120K/yr. Flight instructors earn $20k/yr. Are they overpaid? I don't think so!!

Let's say a flight instructor flies 500 hours per year. In Canada, that is NOT an unusual number. At $100/hr (which I think is very reasonable for a class 1/2) that's still only $50k/yr, less than half what a golf pro earns!

Problem here is that the non-pilots don't understand that you can't instruct 2000 hours per year :roll:
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Post by niss »

I am pretty sure that if someone came to your school and asked how much for the privelage to fly and you responded with between $10 and $13K many of them would keep walking.

I am not going to change my numbers because a flight school is a business not a charity.

PPL = $12,500.00
TC Commercial Requirements
Groundschool: 40 hours
Written Exam: 60%
Flight Time: Total - 200 hours, Solo - 100 hours of which 20 hours must be cross-country
----- Dual - 35 hours
- 5 hours cross-country
- 5 hours night of which 2 hours must be cross-country
- 25 hours instrument flight (5 from PPL)
-
Solo - 30 hours
- 25 hours of skill improvement
- 1 - 300 nautical mile cross-country
- 5 hours night including 10 take-offs, circuits, and landings


Groundschool = $500.00

35 X $270.00 = $9450.00
30 X $130.00 = $3900.00
-----------------------------
65 Hours = $13,350.00

65 Min CPL + 57 (carried from PPL) 122 hrs TT

200 hrs CPL min - 122 = 78hrs.

Lets say 28 dual and 50 solo. (I dont know whats normal, this is just a guess)

28 X $270 = $7560.00
50 X $130 = $6500.00
--------------------------
45 hours = $6500.00

$6500 + $13,350 + $500 + $12,500 = $32,850

So now a 200hr wonder has invested $32,850.00 and is still completely un employable as he has no ratings and has only flown a 172.
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Post by niss »

Hedley,

Its not the students fault that the instructor doesnt get enough hours.

The only reason you say an instructor is worth that much is because of how few hours they work.

Instructors are not worth $100/hr, just because they only work 500 a year.

Again look at my mechanic analogy.
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Post by Crazymax »

niss wrote:I am pretty sure that if someone came to your school and asked how much for the privelage to fly and you responded with between $10 and $13K many of them would keep walking.

I am not going to change my numbers because a flight school is a business not a charity.

PPL = $12,500.00
TC Commercial Requirements
Groundschool: 40 hours
Written Exam: 60%
Flight Time: Total - 200 hours, Solo - 100 hours of which 20 hours must be cross-country
----- Dual - 35 hours
- 5 hours cross-country
- 5 hours night of which 2 hours must be cross-country
- 25 hours instrument flight (5 from PPL)
-
Solo - 30 hours
- 25 hours of skill improvement
- 1 - 300 nautical mile cross-country
- 5 hours night including 10 take-offs, circuits, and landings


Groundschool = $500.00

35 X $270.00 = $9450.00
30 X $130.00 = $3900.00
-----------------------------
65 Hours = $13,350.00

65 Min CPL + 57 (carried from PPL) 122 hrs TT

200 hrs CPL min - 122 = 78hrs.

Lets say 28 dual and 50 solo. (I dont know whats normal, this is just a guess)

28 X $270 = $7560.00
50 X $130 = $6500.00
--------------------------
45 hours = $6500.00

$6500 + $13,350 + $500 + $12,500 = $32,850

So now a 200hr wonder has invested $32,850.00 and is still completely un employable as he has no ratings and has only flown a 172.
How much is a degreee again? Maybe a bit more than that. I think 35K is resonable for a CPL. You could do the calculations for IFR Group 1 too included in the 200 hrs and it would bring you up to maybe 40K? That's pretty good I think....

Max
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