Sorry all for starting this thread then disappearing.....
Much thanks to Clunk for his great ideas and drive, and Hedley for his assistance, and also thanks to Endless for moving the tread, hopefully this will bring more needed attention to the subject. I have not had the pleasure (?) of a reply from emails and faxes. Also having a 2 -aircraft "Career College", we are tossing around what to do come Sept. Obviously, we along with the rest of the smaller Ontario schools, are pleading and hoping for a reprieve. If not, do we simply not teach CPL or Instructor ratings? Or do we get "creative" and charge our instructors a "facilities fee" equal to their hourly rate when they are teaching CPL, bill the student for aircraft rental, and the instructor bill the student for his/her time? Or do we just say screw it, and continue as we currently do, and wait to see what the Ont gov will do? I know for sure what we WON'T be doing - enrolling in their scheme!
Ontario Restricting CPL instruction
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Hmmm. TC's inspectors are facing duplication, redundancy, and or replacement here by the Ontario government. They are unionized so put this on their radar screen too. This should bring pressure to bear from inside TC's empire and pit the feds against the province. Make sure your local TC inspector is in the loop too!
-
Vickers vanguard
- Rank 7
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:04 pm
- Location: YUL
Sorry to say this, but this is a very common attitude found in this country!clunckdriver wrote: My frustration is compounded by some young aspiring instructors I have spoken to who again quote,"dont want to get involved in politics" Compare this with the AOPA getting all at Sun and Fun to sign the petition re user fees,{ its a pity the American public are not as active in regards what GWB is doing to their country, but thats another thread }t!
I've sometimes been labelled a trouble maker for pointing to the obvious regarding our current politicians & policies. It troubles me the see the direction this government is taking.....but that's maybe because I wasn't born in this country and knows what it is to live in a banana republic.
I Did my private with a large FTU but then, left it to follow their Chief pilot when he left to open his own Tiny
FTU(one aircraft) about 50 miles outside of Montreal. I finnished the CPL part time while still working full time in Aviation Maint with an airline.Can somebody specify which persons are best to contact regarding the PCCA issue. A lot of emails addresses have been posted and I was wondering which ones would be more appropriate.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
You may be able to sell it for more going that route.I have been contacted by two other juristrictions with offers to move our outfit into their domains, one of the offers is very attractive, just might do it!
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Our tiny "mom & pop" two plane FTU at our airport is NOT a "career college" by any starbuck's inhabitant's stretch of the imagination.
When I spoke to "The Donna" (Donna Vogel - please give her a call!) I explained to her that if she took a duck, and hung a sign around it's neck saying "DOG", it would not go "woof woof" and wag it's tail, because it was NOT a dog.
Similarly, if some gov't civil servant calls us a "career college", that does not make us one. We starting training here 40 years ago - probably longer than most of these obsequious, offensive civil servants have been alive - and we have NEVER had ONE problem with a student's finances, because we DO NOT take money on account - if anything, sometimes the student's don't pay us!
I invited "The Donna" to look at our accounts receivables as proof of this, but like most civil servants, she was uninterested in the facts.
So, we are going to continue our little FTU, and if the government thinks it is in the "public interest" to send in a bunch of cops with automatic weapons to drag us off to the hoosegow and shut down the FTU, well, I guess it's going to happen.
Your taxdollars at work, people.
I saw an interview with Frank Zappa, recorded back in 1986. He was surrounded by a bunch of fat, ignorant old men - the kind you find in gov't. He had just finished testifying, and his advice to the youth 20 years ago was "Register to Vote. Vote. Run for something". He was right - if you abdicate your duties as a citizen, and don't try to control your runaway gov't, it will surely try to control you.
When I spoke to "The Donna" (Donna Vogel - please give her a call!) I explained to her that if she took a duck, and hung a sign around it's neck saying "DOG", it would not go "woof woof" and wag it's tail, because it was NOT a dog.
Similarly, if some gov't civil servant calls us a "career college", that does not make us one. We starting training here 40 years ago - probably longer than most of these obsequious, offensive civil servants have been alive - and we have NEVER had ONE problem with a student's finances, because we DO NOT take money on account - if anything, sometimes the student's don't pay us!
I invited "The Donna" to look at our accounts receivables as proof of this, but like most civil servants, she was uninterested in the facts.
So, we are going to continue our little FTU, and if the government thinks it is in the "public interest" to send in a bunch of cops with automatic weapons to drag us off to the hoosegow and shut down the FTU, well, I guess it's going to happen.
Your taxdollars at work, people.
I saw an interview with Frank Zappa, recorded back in 1986. He was surrounded by a bunch of fat, ignorant old men - the kind you find in gov't. He had just finished testifying, and his advice to the youth 20 years ago was "Register to Vote. Vote. Run for something". He was right - if you abdicate your duties as a citizen, and don't try to control your runaway gov't, it will surely try to control you.
Quite seriously, I am going to propose that we add the following person to our FTU, with a very impressive title - something like "Minister Without Portfolio" or perhaps "Executive Vice-President Of Customer Experiences".
It needs to be the right person. I am leaning towards a lesbian vegan militant feminist native w/status card. I would strongly prefer a vegan, but I will accept a vegetarian. Dark skin (we can send down south to tan) and dark black hair are also obvious pre-requisites. Long dark hair, drawn tightly up into a severe bun is a bonus.
Such a person would be fearless against the forces of government silliness. They would not dare to touch us with such awesome forces aligned on our side.
You think I'm joking?
Our government is the joke, people. We are living a Monty Python sketch. Take it seriously at your own peril.
It needs to be the right person. I am leaning towards a lesbian vegan militant feminist native w/status card. I would strongly prefer a vegan, but I will accept a vegetarian. Dark skin (we can send down south to tan) and dark black hair are also obvious pre-requisites. Long dark hair, drawn tightly up into a severe bun is a bonus.
Such a person would be fearless against the forces of government silliness. They would not dare to touch us with such awesome forces aligned on our side.
You think I'm joking?
Our government is the joke, people. We are living a Monty Python sketch. Take it seriously at your own peril.
Why not try to set up a formal petition (spelling?) against this stupidity? Follow the example of our friends to the south, they get angry about something, they unite and fight against it (going right back to the American Revolution!). Just my two cents, which is not on account...
Has anyone gotten a reply from letters or emails sent? It seems the only way you get to talk to these people is if they happen to answer the telephone.
Several of you have asked why isn't TC getting involved- because Jim Dow, head of Flight Training - has a vested interest in this issue, and would love to see advanced flight training going to college-only type programs. Apparently us mom-and-pop operators aren't producing a high-enough standard of pilot. (strange, when I see where many of our good pilots in industry come from, the majority are from smaller operators) Also, see the various threads about Jazz hiring direct from the colleges. Who needs the smaller schools if your first job is going to be at a large commuter operation??!! When our local TC inspectors 1st heard about the Private Career College issue, they were upset, said they'd be there, urged us to go and complain, explain etc. When the day came, the only TC person there was mr. dow, who when introduced by said Donna Vogel, was said to "have been working hand-in-hand with us" and "clarified some issues for us" and also "assured us that the record-keeping requirements of TC met or exceeded what the PCCA requires" so "we have agreed that the requirements for most items of the PCCA will be satisfied by meeting the requirements of TC". Talk about handing us to them on a silver platter! Since then, the response of local inspectors has been guarded, or under the breathe comments only - obviously they've been told to hush. ATAC has been even worse. They took it upon themselves to convince the Ont gov that they were the "voice of industry", and then didn't inform their members what was being proposed! Never mind that they represent fewer than 50% of FTUs. Of course, Ont gov wouldn't investigate their claim, simpler to take it at stated value. And they say they can't understand why no one was concerned about this when it was a proposal instead of law. Gee, wonder why? no one other than people who wanted it to happen or didn't really give a shit knew about it! This whole thing has been kept sooooo quiet while it was being proposed, someone somewhere has an agenda regarding flight training, and is using whatever means possible to meet that agenda. Since dow is head of flight training, and obviously knew about this, he's the prime suspect. Also, some of you DFTE' or PE's or even instructors may remember him presenting foreign operators that run career flight schools for the airlines to the workshops and instructor refresher courses and stating that "here is the future of flight training for Canada" and going on about how soon all CPL and higher instruction will be done by college-like institutions geared toward airline flying.
Being that how the majority of flying jobs in this country are not airline flying, doesn't this sound like a great way to kill aviation in Canada? Talk about someone who needs aviation to support his position being so short-sighted about the whole industry.
Anyway, as several people have suggested, perhaps it's going to come down to civil disobedience and the court system to decide. Here's hoping that the groups that claim to support general aviation and flight training in Canada hop to the plate with legal help for the schools that continue to teach CPL without enrolling in this scheme.
Several of you have asked why isn't TC getting involved- because Jim Dow, head of Flight Training - has a vested interest in this issue, and would love to see advanced flight training going to college-only type programs. Apparently us mom-and-pop operators aren't producing a high-enough standard of pilot. (strange, when I see where many of our good pilots in industry come from, the majority are from smaller operators) Also, see the various threads about Jazz hiring direct from the colleges. Who needs the smaller schools if your first job is going to be at a large commuter operation??!! When our local TC inspectors 1st heard about the Private Career College issue, they were upset, said they'd be there, urged us to go and complain, explain etc. When the day came, the only TC person there was mr. dow, who when introduced by said Donna Vogel, was said to "have been working hand-in-hand with us" and "clarified some issues for us" and also "assured us that the record-keeping requirements of TC met or exceeded what the PCCA requires" so "we have agreed that the requirements for most items of the PCCA will be satisfied by meeting the requirements of TC". Talk about handing us to them on a silver platter! Since then, the response of local inspectors has been guarded, or under the breathe comments only - obviously they've been told to hush. ATAC has been even worse. They took it upon themselves to convince the Ont gov that they were the "voice of industry", and then didn't inform their members what was being proposed! Never mind that they represent fewer than 50% of FTUs. Of course, Ont gov wouldn't investigate their claim, simpler to take it at stated value. And they say they can't understand why no one was concerned about this when it was a proposal instead of law. Gee, wonder why? no one other than people who wanted it to happen or didn't really give a shit knew about it! This whole thing has been kept sooooo quiet while it was being proposed, someone somewhere has an agenda regarding flight training, and is using whatever means possible to meet that agenda. Since dow is head of flight training, and obviously knew about this, he's the prime suspect. Also, some of you DFTE' or PE's or even instructors may remember him presenting foreign operators that run career flight schools for the airlines to the workshops and instructor refresher courses and stating that "here is the future of flight training for Canada" and going on about how soon all CPL and higher instruction will be done by college-like institutions geared toward airline flying.
Being that how the majority of flying jobs in this country are not airline flying, doesn't this sound like a great way to kill aviation in Canada? Talk about someone who needs aviation to support his position being so short-sighted about the whole industry.
Anyway, as several people have suggested, perhaps it's going to come down to civil disobedience and the court system to decide. Here's hoping that the groups that claim to support general aviation and flight training in Canada hop to the plate with legal help for the schools that continue to teach CPL without enrolling in this scheme.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
-
HighBypass
- Rank 3
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:36 am
- Location: YZF
Yes it is too bad that less people will be able to afford to be C-pilots, however it also means that pilots like yourself (working for jazz style airlines) will be able to make more then $100K in future, and maybe receive some respect, (like being able to overnight in something better then a super-8).. Its not all about the $$, but with less pilot's this industry will be less cut-throat.. and I like it already.Stinky wrote:It sounds like it will prevent a lot of people from becomming commercial pilots. I started flying later in life while I had a mortgage. The only way I could have gotten a commercial was to train part time at a small school while I worked full time. I'm now flying for Jazz. You would think due to this impending pilot shortage they would try to make it easier for people to pursue the career.
Maybe maore people will persure the trades.. like plumbing for example...
Roger Perdactor.
Re: Ontario Restricting CPL instruction
sorry to piss a lot of you, but i agree with this 100%. in fact, only colleges should be able to issue CPL. then, you wouldn't be fighting with clowns who failed their flight tests 5 times for a 5$/hour job in St-middle-of-nowhere... 'cause those clowns wouldn't be accepted in such colleges...bbb wrote: For students this will mean only the largest schools will continue to offer CPL or Instructor ratings. Interestingly, the aviation colleges are excempt. However, the schools that provide the flight training for college or university programs, and aren't an integral part of sad college or university will have to comply. So, lots of good schools and instructors will no longer being doing commercial training. Students are going to have far fewer choices, and will experience higher training costs. Instructors will have fewer employment opportunities, especially those leading to multi time. All this to "protect" the consumer, where most non-college schools only utilize a pay-as-you-go system???!!!!
to be a surgeon, you need to work your ass off and pass all the tests that go along with your 5 year+ degree...
to be a pilot, you just need to pay...
in both cases, you have a great potential to kill people.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
MCA, yeh you are bang on about the quality of instruction offered at some schools.
But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
Are all landings now only done into wind in commercial aviation?
But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
Are all landings now only done into wind in commercial aviation?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
you're right, i attended one of these pussy-schools that were recalling their students home when the ceiling got under 10 000'... not a way to train professionnals.Cat Driver wrote:But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
but i stand with my opinion that such a system would eventually eliminate natural dumbasses that could eventually make it to a cockpit. i approve darwin's theory, but it's sad when it kills innocent people. just have to remember Air Satellite crash in 1998, CYBC, Qc. i'm damn sorry, but that guy shouldn't have make it to the left seat.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
One thing Jim Dow has that we don't Clunk is a protected full time job that has no performance requirement and pays a good salary with work hours and benefits we could only dream of.I think you should join Jim Dow in TC, he is the only other person in the industry who shares your opinion.
Regardless of how incompetent he may be he is safe from acountability and when he finally retires he will be able to double dip with a real good paying job for one of the friends he has made during his stint payed for by you and me the taxpayers of Canada.
Makes one wonder sometimes just what one should have done.
However looking backfrom my life experiences I would feel more personal self worth had I became a common criminal rather than be a Jim Dow.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
clunckdriver wrote:... it has been my experience over some 30,000hrs plus is that few of the college grads have the fundimental hands and feet skills, not to mention the almost total lack of human relations skills to make it in this industry, in fact the highest "fired for due cause" in both the major carrier I worked for and my own companies have been such grads, in fact Ive reached the point I wont even interview them any more, just cant afford the bent airplanes, yes there are exceptions, and its proberbly not fair that I paint you all with the same brush, but in giving your ilk a chance in the past damn nearly cost me my OC. The point is this thread is about the Provincial Government steping into Federall turf, not about your percieved superiority, in regards to this bias you show if the college system is so damn good how come Sault now has to beg pilots with other full time jobs to step in and try to save their program and how come a survey done by the very department which funds these programs pointed out that only 20% of grads are still in aviation after five years? I think you should join Jim Dow in TC, he is the only other person in the industry who shares your opinion.
wow! nice rant!
1- i don't buy your theory that only graduates from colleges break aircraft. i prefer to laugh at people who attended private schools, fly a turboprop, have over 4000 hrs, and believe their engines have pistons (real story heard just days ago; this brain-wrecked could be YOUR employee, and he's gonna fur sure break your AC and kill your clients!)
2- i don't feel superior, i just think that i didn't have the luxury to fail my exams 'cause my school would have simply kicked me out.
3- i don't give a shit about sault college. the one i attended was free of charge, hence maybe a little bit more serious on the selection process.
4- i also don't give a shit about jim dow, and i don't feel any need to go talk to him about this situation.
5- your 30 000+ hours doesn't make you own the truth and rightness, only experience, and maybe some kind of wisdom.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Nice rant MCA:
I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
We are always looking for exceptionally gifted hands and feet pilots and what they got on their exams is secondary.
I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
We are always looking for exceptionally gifted hands and feet pilots and what they got on their exams is secondary.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
HighBypass
- Rank 3
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:36 am
- Location: YZF
Ive been bad at x-winds ever since that x-wind limit was put into effect. I just hope my bosses dont find out!Cat Driver wrote:MCA, yeh you are bang on about the quality of instruction offered at some schools.
But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
Are all landings now only done into wind in commercial aviation?
R. Perdactor
well, yes, they did.... i can fax you a copy of my CPL flight test that shows a marvellous perfect score. the only other guy i know who got that score is also from this school.Cat Driver wrote:I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
and you know what? i was pretty pissed to see that all these efforts were overall useless, 'cause employers do as you say and don't bother to ask how you succeed at school. because having good knowledge is not important at all, you just need to look like a pilot, talk like a pilot, and bullshit your way to a cockpit!
but essentially, what pisses me off the most, is that anyone who's got the money can at least become a pilot, and eventually make it to a major carrier, without ever attending any kind of school that is recognized by the government.
no one would like to be butchered by a plastic surgeon who "bought" his practice licence; no one would like to have his eyes cured from myopia by a guy who never attended a few university classes; would you like your children to be taught by someone who's improvising him/herself a teacher? would you get your teeth repaired by a fucking clown? no. but we abandon our lives in the hands of people who litterally bought their ATPL, and thus their career. that is something that pisses me off.
so yes, close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree, and i'll be happy.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
and if they do so, you will all be crawling under job offers, due to a massive lack of qualified pilots.. and then this job will be glamorous again. not that this side of the job attracts me, but the most stupid, ignorant, arrogant, close-minded people i've ever met were almost all pilots.MCA wrote: close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Getting a degree does not necessarily make for a good pilot.but essentially, what pisses me off the most, is that anyone who's got the money can at least become a pilot, and eventually make it to a major carrier, without ever attending any kind of school that is recognized by the government.
One can learn everything one needs to know to fly anything in the air without having a degree. I would venture to say thousands of sucessful pilots did not have a degree, hell I did not even have high school and managed to learn how to fly most everything that flies.
I have no idea what brought you to the above conclusions but closing the mom and pop schools and going the college route will not be the answer either.MCA wrote:
close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree
and if they do so, you will all be crawling under job offers, due to a massive lack of qualified pilots.. and then this job will be glamorous again. not that this side of the job attracts me, but the most stupid, ignorant, arrogant, close-minded people i've ever met were almost all pilots.
When was flying glamourous? I've been a working pilot for over fifty years and can't recall it being nothing more than a job.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
maybe not, but darwin won't have to make most of the selection... grades, physical and intellectual aptitudes and PR-capacity will....Cat Driver wrote: closing the mom and pop schools and going the college route will not be the answer either.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Are you suggesting that to be a good safe pilot you must pass an intellectual aptitude test and PR tests?maybe not, but darwin won't have to make most of the selection... grades, physical and intellectual aptitudes and PR-capacity will....
And who will determine what these tests contain?
Flying an airplane is not some dark science that requires extraordinary abilities.
Flying airplanes is driving a vehicle and the unsafe, unsatisfactory skills drivers can be weeded out by proper management at the level of the chief pilot.
I will grant that a degree in computer management skills would be beneficial for the new generation of commercial aircraft.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
HighBypass
- Rank 3
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:36 am
- Location: YZF
computer management
Good one.... and is this how airline pilots of the future want to be remembered as?? computer programmers?Cat Driver wrote:I will grant that a degree in computer management skills would be beneficial for the new generation of commercial aircraft.
Roger Perdactor
