Buying PGI's?

FrustratedPilot · Post by **FrustratedPilot** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:38 am

Hey, been reading a long time here so thought id ask a question...
I don't really know the edicate about buying somebody's pgis, ive been working on my own for awhile, but im getting pretty frustrated and its taking much longer than i expected and the thought of losing a job i had lined up isn't very helpful. That being said if its not against those unspoken rules like buying ppcs and such and anybody wants to sell lemme know, and if it is, then disregard and ill head back to the coal mine !, Cheers,

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:01 am

If your POI says you can buy him off, I say go for it.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:25 am

This is not at all like buying a PPC; hell, when a friend of mine was considering getting his Instructor rating back I gave mine to him.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:52 am

Biggest problem is....if you don't understand the info or lessons enough to make them yourself, your going to find using someone elses will be damn near impossible. If you don't learn the lesson by making it....you can't expect to teach it to someone.

Not to be negative here but if your not capable of putting together your own PGI lessons, you probably shouldn't be teaching.

-=0=LiR=0=-

Wasn't Me · Post by **Wasn't Me** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:18 am

They have great ones at some of the aviation shops in the GTA

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:31 am

Forgive me for my ignorance, what is a PGI ?

Not only do I not have one I don't even know what it is.

Not to be negative here but if your not capable of putting together your own PGI lessons, you probably shouldn't be teaching.

It must not be to important bcause I seem to be able to teach without one.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:46 am

Cat Driver wrote:Forgive me for my ignorance, what is a PGI ?

Not only do I not have one I don't even know what it is.

Not to be negative here but if your not capable of putting together your own PGI lessons, you probably shouldn't be teaching.

It must not be to important bcause I seem to be able to teach without one.

I don't remember the exact meaning behind the acronym but it's the notes for each lesson for the briefing. I don't even use mine anymore, not even sure where exactly they are, I just do it off the cuff. I hope at least you have some kind of briefing Cat. My private instructor was "old school" and we just got in and went flying so I learned while doing. I think I would have benefitted from some form of briefing before hand.

shamrock104 · Post by **shamrock104** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:55 am

Preparatory ground Instruction- The What? Why? and How? of a lesson.
Cat- your lessons are probably ingrained by now but very useful for new Instructors so nothing is left out.
As previously mentioned its probably best to prepare your own.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:36 am

Thanks, I just didn't know the acrynom...

....and yes not only do I thouroughly brief before each exercise I also make sure they understood what I was explaining to them....or they don't get in the airplane.

...and I only teach the exercise I have briefed, my aim is to make sure they not only understand each exercise but they must be above average in flying it.

Debriefing is done with the camcorder, the student owns the tape.

The camcorder cuts the learning curve way down and is worth its weight in diamonds as it has video and sound so the student can relive exactly what we did and what I said.....and so can I.....it is amazing how much better your instructional skills get when you listen to and watch your own performance.

But I' m not a good enough instructor to qualify for TC's license....

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:24 pm

Over the years I both been given PGI's and copied/given out mine as well. Never for money; just friends helping friends. All I would recommend is that they reworded my PGI's into their own words and short-hand that would cue/make sense to them. It would reflect poorly on you and your Class 1 if you're all start-stop and confused during the ground briefing, trying to make sense of someone else's chicken-scratch short-hand.

Now that I think of it, somebody still has my PGI notes. Thanks for the reminder!

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:28 pm

PGI - Prepratory Ground Instruction

Though that might not be what most would refer to them as.

GottaFly · Post by **GottaFly** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:57 pm

I've found that there is no way i would pass my TC written and flight test if i wasn't forced to research all the information needed to create my PGI book. The flight instructor rating is very labour intensive. If you don't create your book, you simply won't have enough knowledge. Remember just because you can fly, or may have been flying for years, doesn't mean you know the information that is needed to pass a TC test.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:15 pm

Remember just because you can fly, or may have been flying for years, doesn't mean you know the information that is needed to pass a TC test.

Fortunately I really have no need to pass TC's test....in fact to meet their standards as a flight instructor would be of no possible advantage to me as I couldn't imagine taking such a cut in pay to instruct.

Not to mention trying to remember all the useless stuff that they require to pass their test.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:07 am

Cat Driver wrote: Fortunately I really have no need to pass TC's test....in fact to meet their standards as a flight instructor would be of no possible advantage to me as I couldn't imagine taking such a cut in pay to instruct.

Thankfully, Cat, none of the skills that you have said you are going to teach in Canada require anything but your documented experience. You are good to go. Given your experience and background, you have the skills to be able to teach "from the hip" as do many experienced Instructors -- without the benefit of your notes.

However, new Flight Instructors should have a good set of notes to present organized and appropriate lesson to a student... considering that a majority of the them are newly licensed CPL candidates.

In an ideal world, all Instructors would be those that have "been there, done that" for many years. The reality is the industry is not there... yet. Maybe someday it will be.

In a flight test, the candidate must demonstrate an understanding of the Flight Instructor Guide, and the Flight Training Manual. They must also be aware of the standards that their students must meet to pass the flight test. They should also be aware of the supervision standards, and, in the case of a Class 2 or 1 ride, how to supervise Class 4 instructors, and the responsibilities of a CFI.

My point is, this is the current standard. It is NOT useless stuff.

I would seek you out for bush, float, or Catalina instruction. You would have a great deal to teach me. I would ask you when was the last time you trained a PPL from day one?

Cat Driver wrote:Not to mention trying to remember all the useless stuff that they require to pass their test.

So you are referring to things like:

Taxiing
Steep Turns (including minimum radius)
Slow Flight
Stalls
Spins
Spiral Dives
Side-Slipping (including forward slips and slipping turns)
Take-off
Circuit
Landing
Precautionary Approach
Forced Landing
In-flight navigation
Emergency Procedures...

Not to mention anything as dumb as:

Documentation (yea, to keep TC off your back is a good enough reason, is it not?)
Aircraft performance
Weight and Balance
Pre-Flight Planning Procedures

As much as a problem as you have with the Regulator (and I understand this) which of the above would you consider useless? I don't see anything, personally. But... that may just be me.

To the original poster:

Honestly, if you want to pass the test, the "tried and true" method is to create your own notes that work for you. There is no real shortcut. If you use someone elses notes, you better be very familiar with them, or you will have a great deal of difficulty during the flight test, and later teaching your students.

To teach is an honor. Treat it as such.

-Guy

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 am

Cat Driver wrote:Debriefing is done with the camcorder, the student owns the tape.

The camcorder cuts the learning curve way down and is worth its weight in diamonds as it has video and sound so the student can relive exactly what we did and what I said.....and so can I.....it is amazing how much better your instructional skills get when you listen to and watch your own performance.

Some schools are doing this. And I completely agree that it does absolute wonders with debriefing, understanding, and review. What a great tool!

I did it back in industry... mostly audio, back in "the day". However, some Instructors do not want their sessions recorded.

It does bring up a liability issue... and what about YouTube? I am confident of my instructional style, but even I am hesitant to have it broadcast on the Internet.

Interesting times.

-Guy

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:38 am

Here is a free download of the New Zealand Flight Instructor Guide which contains some sample lesson plans. Maybe it will help you with your material.

It also provides a good look into some other methods of teaching technique and knowledge from different parts of the world.

http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Instructo ... mpiled.pdf

Here is a free download of the Australian Flight Instructor Guide

http://www.casa.gov.au/aoc/training/guides/FIM.pdf

Strega · Post by **Strega** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:32 am

TC Guy wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:
However, new Flight Instructors should have a good set of notes to present organized and appropriate lesson to a student... considering that a majority of the them are newly licensed CPL candidates.

OK this is the underlying problem..

How can one teach another to fly, when they themselves, have a difficult time doing so? good notes or not?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:27 am

OK this is the underlying problem..

How can one teach another to fly, when they themselves, have a difficult time doing so? good notes or not?

An even better question Strega is why does TC prevent people like me from working in the flight training industry?

I would be willing to take five students from zero to the PPL flight test with a 30 hour time frame for completing the training.

And put them up against any TC flight training inspector with the same time frame for completing the training using their rules for training.

Of course the testing of the ten students would have to be done by someone who knew nothing of the training history of these students and only graded on their ability to pass the PPL flight test. There is no way I would accept the test flights to be done in Canada due to the fact that TCCA would skew the results in their favour, and that you can count on because they are so morally corrupt they can only win by using their position of power....

It would be interesting to see who turned out the more skilled pilot.

There of course would have to be an incentive for me to do this in the form of monetary reward.

My fee is 250 Euro per flight hour ( $355.00 ) Canadian.

There is a great way for TCCA to do a comparison test, not to mention pay me for my time.

And of course the question that TC Guy asked about when I did my last PPL training would be answered.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:15 am

To teach is an honor. Treat it as such.

Well, yes, but ... that's hardly the whole story.

Yes, there is great responsibility, but what you left out is that flight instruction is a truly thankless profession. You will work like a dog for less than poverty level wages, and will be scorned by the rest of the industry, who will consider your skill and experience as totally worthless or perhaps even negative. You will stop instructing as soon as any other job appears.

Flight instruction is like working at a soup kitchen. It is volunteer social work.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:19 am

Flight instruction is like working at a soup kitchen. It is volunteer social work.

And who is responsible for this situation Hedley?

Maybe Jim Dow is going to address this deplorabe situation and close up all you Mom and Pop operators and replace you with government controlled colleges that will hire top notch instructors and pay them top dollar?

My concern is where are they going to find top notch instructors after getting rid of all us inferior types?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:05 pm

who is responsible for this situation

Good question. Transport tries to stay as far away as possible from the financial side of things, but we all know that really isn't possible.

I remember years ago, instructors were getting screwed with terrible wages. The excuse back then was that students wouldn't pay any more.

Well, since then we've had both insurance premiums and fuel prices go through the roof, rates have sky-rocketed, and the students are still coming through the door. So much for the argument that you can't afford to pay instructors.

I think the real problem is that instructors are willing to work for peanuts. They are their own worst enemy. To build time, the PIC hours that they log are the primary compensation, and the dollars per hour is mostly irrelevant to them, and it shows.

It's hard to change human nature. Personally, I don't think instruction should be used by low-timers as a way to build hours. If instructors had to have a minimum of 1000 hours, you might see an improvement, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:28 pm

Hedley wrote:
who is responsible for this situation
Good question. Transport tries to stay as far away as possible from the financial side of things, but we all know that really isn't possible.

I remember years ago, instructors were getting screwed with terrible wages. The excuse back then was that students wouldn't pay any more.

Well, since then we've had both insurance premiums and fuel prices go through the roof, rates have sky-rocketed, and the students are still coming through the door. So much for the argument that you can't afford to pay instructors.

I think the real problem is that instructors are willing to work for peanuts. They are their own worst enemy. To build time, the PIC hours that they log are the primary compensation, and the dollars per hour is mostly irrelevant to them, and it shows.

It's hard to change human nature. Personally, I don't think instruction should be used by low-timers as a way to build hours. If instructors had to have a minimum of 1000 hours, you might see an improvement, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Most instructors when they start out are young, naive and desperate to work. They take the crap pay because they think it's normal and don't want to make waves and lose out on that all important first job. As a result they bend over and take it up the tailpipe while working themselves into a state of exhaustion at a second job trying to make ends meet. Luckily I'm in the position of being able to instruct on my own terms for the fun of it and the money isn't really relevant. That being said, when my instructor's rating lapses this time it's probably not going to be worth the trouble to renew.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:38 pm

when my instructor's rating lapses this time it's probably not going to be worth the trouble to renew

That's really sad. Please reconsider. We really need more experienced flight instructors.

Can you take the 3 days for a refresher course? I took it back in the early 90's and it was well worth it.

GottaFly · Post by **GottaFly** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:59 pm

To teach is an honor. Treat it as such.

This much is true. If you think about our senereo for a second, think about the instructor that taught you the valuable skills needed to fly. He got paid the same thing as all the other instructors out there right now, but yet you benifited from that. There has to be an attitude of "giving back". You've taken from this flying industry, why not give something back to it instead of complaining about it. No amount of complaining about TC is going to change TC. They govern what we do and how we do it. Review the solution to the hazardous attitude of "anti authority". Say to yourself rules are usually right, and they're usually there for a reason. We can then think that regulations and CARS and flight training and all that is probably right. Lets just do what we can with what we have and stop complaining so much.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:02 pm

Gottafly, if you were directing this at me I would like to respond.

To teach is an honor. Treat it as such.

This much is true. If you think about our senereo for a second, think about the instructor that taught you the valuable skills needed to fly. He got paid the same thing as all the other instructors out there right now, but yet you benifited from that. There has to be an attitude of "giving back". You've taken from this flying industry, why not give something back to it instead of complaining about it.

How exactly have I taken from this flying industry????

And how exactly would you suggest I give back something instead of complaining about it?

No amount of complaining about TC is going to change TC. They govern what we do and how we do it.

It won't change because they keep the instructor pool under strict control through fear.

Review the solution to the hazardous attitude of "anti authority".

I will agree with this 100%, everytime I think about a few cretins that that work for TC flight training in the Pacific region it reinforces my " anti authority " feelings.

Anyone who allows these thugs to control their lives are forced into the attitude of being resigned to believe that there is no other way to teach except bend over and take it.

Say to yourself rules are usually right, and they're usually there for a reason. We can then think that regulations and CARS and flight training and all that is probably right.

Now I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I'm betting I understand the reasons for rules one hell of a lot better than you do, therefore I must strongly disagree with your simplistic outlook.

Lets just do what we can with what we have and stop complaining so much.

Great idea, by the way if I feel like giving you something to make up for what I have taken from the industry, where would you like me to send the KY?