lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

[unionman]

I"m fed up with the terrible wages paid to pilots in Canada, Im sick of making less than most fast food workers. I have a friend that just got a summer student job, primarily just for the experience to put on her resume, but the company is nice enough to give her "thanks for coming out" pay. I have been in aviation for 4 years now, yet her salary will equate to $8000/year more than me, and she hasn't even graduated yet...honestly WTF!! Until your 3rd 4th year at a major airline your not making enough.

Pilots are skilled proffessionals and deserve to paid as such. Im sick of hearing "you knew what you were getting into", "but you love what you do" , "if you dont like it so much then why don't you get out" and so on.. Its time pilots start getting what we deserve, think about it, we have the public by the balls. If we all joined together and had a "one day walkout" where all the pilots in Canada agreed not to fly for one day (essentially all flights grounded), im sure we would get some attention drawn to our crappy wages. The airlines aren't going to run to the local flight school and train up all the instructors to take our jobs over one day, honestly, our jobs would still be there waiting for us.

I can guarantee you that if pilots were paid fairly, we would be happier at our company and more likely to stay longer at one employer rather than always jumping ship for greener pastures. This would result in lower turnover/trainning cost for employers ,no more need for trainning bonds. Its an easy concept, treat your employees right and they will treat you right.

Why not get all the airlines in Canada together to simultaneousley raise their tickets prices by %15 to pay thiere employees right. If every company does at the same time and sticks to it, then there shoudln't be any worry over one company loosing bussiness to another beacuse it would be an even rise accross the board, the public has no choice, people need to fly and will pay! We have fuel surchage, nav canada surcharge, airport improvment fee ect... why not add a "staffing surcharge" people would freak out for a month or two, then they would forget, and hey maybe before i retire i might be able to afford a car, home and be able start a familly.

[sky's the limit]

Good thread,

Wait until Dust Devil gets ahold of it though... You'll have to add an option to the Poll - Arm each pilot in Canada with a dull steak knife, and let them fight it out for wages....And the option not to pay Tax


stl

[Dust Devil]

Hey my pilots are payed as per industry standard

[flightdude1]

I agree to some extent, however it varies....My first job was on a 207 and I was clearing in the area of 30k...and looking at first year teaching jobs, they only get in the area of 35k...now as for most KA, Metro, medevac FO's, well i think the 20-30k is a bit weak...but in my position, i still need the experience and no family to support so I can handle it.....

[Wacko]

I"m fed up with the terrible wages paid to pilots in Canada, Im sick of making less than most fast food workers. I have a friend that just got a summer student job, primarily just for the experience to put on her resume, but the company is nice enough to give her "thanks for coming out" pay. I have been in aviation for 4 years now, yet her salary will equate to $8000/year more than me, and she hasn't even graduated yet...honestly WTF!! Until your 3rd 4th year at a major airline your not making enough.

< New pilots are wh0r3s. The reason you don't see doctors fight over minimum wage jobs is because they are not willing to do it.... and the fact that there aren't enough of them to go around. Don't worry.. this is changing. Less people are joining aviation (as a career) because the pay sucks... it just may be too late for you to get any of the benefits>

Pilots are skilled proffessionals and deserve to paid as such. Im sick of hearing "you knew what you were getting into", "but you love what you do" , "if you dont like it so much then why don't you get out" and so on.. Its time pilots start getting what we deserve, think about it, we have the public by the balls. If we all joined together and had a "one day walkout" where all the pilots in Canada agreed not to fly for one day (essentially all flights grounded), im sure we would get some attention drawn to our crappy wages. The airlines aren't going to run to the local flight school and train up all the instructors to take our jobs over one day, honestly, our jobs would still be there waiting for us.

<I'm sorry but pilots are what? When I did my private I was in a "class" with a couple Asian guys... they were sleeping during ground school and I heard their flying wasn't much butter. Don't get me wrong, there are many guys out there busting their butts to get that commercial license... but there are a bunch of guys with more money than brains.>

I can guarantee you that if pilots were paid fairly, we would be happier at our company and more likely to stay longer at one employer rather than always jumping ship for greener pastures. This would result in lower turnover/trainning cost for employers ,no more need for trainning bonds. Its an easy concept, treat your employees right and they will treat you right.

<It's not about happiness.. it's about bottom line. A good . of employers see themselves as a stepping stone. I once talked to a guy from Jazz relating to this. His answer was, "if they don't want to be there (at Jazz) we don't want them"... this is a guy who's been with the company for ever a decade.>

Why not get all the airlines in Canada together to simultaneousley raise their tickets prices by %15 to pay thiere employees right. If every company does at the same time and sticks to it, then there shoudln't be any worry over one company loosing bussiness to another beacuse it would be an even rise accross the board, the public has no choice, people need to fly and will pay! We have fuel surchage, nav canada surcharge, airport improvment fee ect... why not add a "staffing surcharge" people would freak out for a month or two, then they would forget, and hey maybe before i retire i might be able to afford a car, home and be able start a familly.

<Because unlike the Oil companies, NavCanada etc, the airline industry is NOT a cartel... it is a cut-throat industry.

There is WAY too much supply for demand. The guys with the experience are NOT complaining... trust me. Talk to a senior guy at Air Canada.... 150K for 50 hours of work ain't bad... it's climbing that ladder that blows.

[180]

None of the above.

I'm paid well with no complaints.

Glad I stuck with floats...

[Wacko]

I agree to some extent, however it varies....My first job was on a 207 and I was clearing in the area of 30k...and looking at first year teaching jobs, they only get in the area of 35k...now as for most KA, Metro, medevac FO's, well i think the 20-30k is a bit weak...but in my position, i still need the experience and no family to support so I can handle it.....

You realize you spent more on your training than a doctor/engineer? They still get trained... but they aren't complaining because they are making their 50+k/year. It's stupid mentality like that that makes this industry so retarded. I don't blame you for thinking this way... at the end of the day, who decides when to cross the picket line.

[flightdude1]

I agree to some extent, however it varies....My first job was on a 207 and I was clearing in the area of 30k...and looking at first year teaching jobs, they only get in the area of 35k...now as for most KA, Metro, medevac FO's, well i think the 20-30k is a bit weak...but in my position, i still need the experience and no family to support so I can handle it.....

You realize you spent more on your training than a doctor/engineer? They still get trained... but they aren't complaining because they are making their 50+k/year. It's stupid mentality like that that makes this industry so retarded. I don't blame you for thinking this way... at the end of the day, who decides when to cross the picket line.

Not necessarily, I spent 35K for all my ratings....this equates to about the same a university student will spend for 4 years of University...classes, books, tuition, living, etc.....so at the end of the day, i spent the same, however, I got my licenses, they got a degree.... And pilots get trained by their companies (Depending which ones). I'm not one of the complainers, I can handle what I make, but I just do believe that there are some positions which should be paid better than they are. And also, why are pilots always compared to Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers? What about other professions? Teaching, Accounting, Business? Those aren't all high starting wage careers?
PS, doctors spend alot more than pilots....4 years, then another 3-4...

['effin hippie]

I don't think my wages are terrible. Not at all.

Do i want them to be higher? Of course.

Should they be? Probably for the market to decide, neh?

On the other hand, particularly with the consolidation going on lately, I think that quality 703/704 operators have to look for ways to retain a core of expertise in the face of rapid turnover. It would be nice to see more employee ownership and profit sharing.

Sick of hearing "you knew what you were getting into"? Too bad. You did. And if you didn't I have even less sympathy for you.

The fact that you can quit your current shitty job for a better paid one (as you yourself point out) kinda makes your whole argument pointless doesn't it.

ef

ps. The title. This isn't "RE" anything, is it, union man? This is union spam. Diabolical...

[flightdude1]

Also, did you not see the thunder ad for a van driver? 70k? Seems pretty damn good to me...

[Wacko]

I agree to some extent, however it varies....My first job was on a 207 and I was clearing in the area of 30k...and looking at first year teaching jobs, they only get in the area of 35k...now as for most KA, Metro, medevac FO's, well i think the 20-30k is a bit weak...but in my position, i still need the experience and no family to support so I can handle it.....

You realize you spent more on your training than a doctor/engineer? They still get trained... but they aren't complaining because they are making their 50+k/year. It's stupid mentality like that that makes this industry so retarded. I don't blame you for thinking this way... at the end of the day, who decides when to cross the picket line.

Not necessarily, I spent 35K for all my ratings....this equates to about the same a university student will spend for 4 years of University...classes, books, tuition, living, etc.....so at the end of the day, i spent the same, however, I got my licenses, they got a degree.... And pilots get trained by their companies (Depending which ones). I'm not one of the complainers, I can handle what I make, but I just do believe that there are some positions which should be paid better than they are. And also, why are pilots always compared to Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers? What about other professions? Teaching, Accounting, Business? Those aren't all high starting wage careers?
PS, doctors spend alot more than pilots....4 years, then another 3-4...

The reason why most people compare pilots to doctors/etc is because MOST pilots spend the equivalent for their training.

I do agree with you about one thing... I'm really tired of posts like this. I'm also tired of guys who have 5000+ hours who blame 250 hour wonders for ruining the industry. There are good paying jobs out there. It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to get them.

What really angers me about this industry is that 90% of pilots (new and old) feel it's "right" for starting FO's to wash planes, clean, etc. You don't like my comparison of doctor or engineers? Fine.. I worked in the corporate world and I have NEVER seen an accountant, teacher, hell.. even an arts student have to clean for their companies to "get insight into the industry" so they can one day MAYBE do what they were trained for.

... having said that... I would still go work for KBAL in a heart beat even though you're pretty much required to wash planes on the weekend....

[Wacko]

I'm done posting in this thread... but it's nice to vent once in a while... thanks unionman

[unionman]

What really angers me about this industry is that 90% of pilots (new and old) feel it's "right" for starting FO's to wash planes, clean, etc. You don't like my comparison of doctor or engineers? Fine.. I worked in the corporate world and I have NEVER seen an accountant, teacher, hell.. even an arts student have to clean for their companies to "get insight into the industry" so they can one day MAYBE do what they were trained for.

You and I would get along Well, I feel the same way!

Also, did you not see the thunder ad for a van driver? 70k? Seems pretty damn good to me...

kudos to Thunder, thats what I like to see, hopefully more companies wil follow their example.

[Kelowna Pilot]

They say Canadian aviation lags about 30 years behind the rest of the world with regards to mentality, etc.

So if you look at your salary as if it were in 1978 dollars, you're actually doing pretty good by the standards of the day

Seriously, though, salaries are primarily a reflection of supply and demand, and the fact that profit margins are pretty razor thin to begin with.

I personally think all aviation at all levels should be turned over to the state. Aviation wasn't meant to turn a profit.

[MyMeowCat]

Just a few notes:

1) Other professional organizations (College of Physicians, BAR (law), Engineers, Accountants, etc) have an actual code of ethics and behavior that's written and sworn to. In Canada there is no such requirement for pilots even if you are CPL ar ATPL. I believe the FAA does have something for professional ethics and conduct.

Some consider a professional as someone who can legally sign your passport. Examples: child molesting priest, crooked lawyer, borderline cop, teacher, accountant, engineer, doctor, optometrist, vetrinarian cat doctors, judges all can sign your passport -- however even an airline pilot can not sign your passport.

2) In most cases if someone gets a bad accountant, doctor, lawyer, teacher, ect. -- the client pays the price for their mis-judgement. If you are a pilot that screws up -- you pay the bill (along with your client) which often includes your life.

So if you fly -- you better do your best or else you pay the ultimate penalty -- which is not true for most other professions. Employers know this. You have a built in incentive to work hard -- your life.

3) People think it is an easy job and that everything is done by computers.

4) It may not be perfect competition in economic theory (ie -- millions of farmers, drivers, janitors, ect) to hold the price down -- but even in an oligopoly (ie: few competitors by comparison like airline choices, cell phone providers, etc) -- an oligopoly can be cut throat.

For example: there are few cell phone companies -- but you pay a very reasonable price considering the complex stuff it actually takes to make cell phones work.

5) Pilot is a "sexy" fun job -- almost to be classified with rock star, actor, artist, author where there is a significant cool factor that makes people do it. Most wanna be rock stars (guy that sings at your local bar), actor (unknown guy in your community theatre), artist (guy who paints portraits on the street), writer (person who has to pay the publisher to publish it) will only make big bucks IF they make it to the big time. Unlike the entertainment industry -- being flown is not entertaining for the client but rather fatiguing.

However, on initial contact, a pilot will be the hit of the party and more interesting than lawyers, business men, computer guys, or the average Joe.

6) There will always be more pilots than airplanes.

Meow!

[1000 HP]

Good thread,

Wait until Dust Devil gets ahold of it though... You'll have to add an option to the Poll - Arm each pilot in Canada with a dull steak knife, and let them fight it out for wages....And the option not to pay Tax


stl

Don't pay taxes. Check out Paradigm Group.

[Liquid Charlie]

I guess this is good therapy -- it is what is and I guess this is the second thing we do best well maybe not second

[yycflyguy]

Just a few notes:

1) Other professional organizations (College of Physicians, BAR (law), Engineers, Accountants, etc) have an actual code of ethics and behavior that's written and sworn to. In Canada there is no such requirement for pilots even if you are CPL ar ATPL. I believe the FAA does have something for professional ethics and conduct.

The FAR's for Airline Transport pilots only makes reference to "being of good morale character" but is not accountable to any association or union like other professionals. Of course every pilot considers themselves to be of strong morale fibre, right?

[trey kule]

flightdude write

but in my position, i still need the experience and no family to support so I can handle it.....

THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THINKING THAT KEEPS WAGES LOW

You should be paid for the job you do.....not what you can afford to subsidise the custormer and/or the company you work for.

I get paid well. very well, as I have a specialized set of skills and proof from experience that I can apply them in a safe way. The simple truth is that the bare commercial pilot is really not experienced enough, or had the opportunity to find out if they really have the appropriate character to be a success. And the unfortunate part is that the way this is determined is by letting them take a plane out to find out...not a good way.
If pilots had an apprenticeship progarm for one year (say 500 hrs)...and yes at very low pay, they would ultimately be employabe at the end and, if we can eliminate the attitude above, get fair wages.

the company I work for pays well above average, but they demand well above average pilots also. As long as we have basically minimally trained pilots at the commercial level, and pilots who are willing to whore themselves out for nothing , to get experience, it wont change.

[bmc]

You better all move soon to get your union started and demanding higher money. The price of oil has a good lead on you.

Rising costs can only be great for the traveller: higher airfares, less demand, less flying, less growth.

I guess you could skimp on maintenance.

[trey kule]

bmc....let me see if I understand your logic correctly. Oil is going up. demand is going down for air travel. So...pilots should take lower wages to help out...or, as you mentioned, we could also skip on maintenance.

i can not speak for all pilots, but I tell you what. I have not spent the last 40 years flying to "help" companies save money by paying me less. I want to be paid what I am worth...no wait....what I feel I am worth (I just mentioned I would not fly for free). Pilots, and Maintenance are part of the costs of running a business.
It is disgusting that when other costs go up, anyone would expect employees to work for less...and I am not pro-union. I just believe in fairness.

[Reality]

Hey, union man, maybe your not worth anymore..... You should spend your time working hard and showing an employer that your not just an average pilot instead of complaining like a little 4 year old.
Every pilot that I have ever met that was good at what he did and worked hard, was payed well for it. If you want a union so bad then go work for west coast air and tell me how happy you are.

[trey kule]

reality.

I am not sure if your greeting was directed at me, but I assure you, if it was, I am the farthest thing you can be from a union man. I do think however, that if companies treat employees in a fair and consistent way, unions will not be necessary or able to get in. Pretty much companies get what they deserve.

And I have seen some really good pilots treated terribly. Have also seen some really bad pilots treated exceptionally well through self-promotion. Again, it is up to a company to properly assess their staff and treat people fairly. dont do that, and a union may slither in.

But as long as we have people who will whore themselves out "for experience", the industry is going to take advantage of the stituation. ....did I mention this before?

[Kelowna Pilot]

Every pilot that I have ever met that was good at what he did and worked hard, was payed well for it.

So are all the crews at CMA bad then? Because they are most certainly not paid well.

What about the Air Canada new hire? $38,000 for the first two years? Payed well? Maybe compared to pilots in South America...

[Reality]

Trey Kule, no it was not at you..... I am just tired of this constant complaining by certain individuals as if it makes a difference, put your time in like everyone else does or did. I am just saying that all the complaining isn't goin to help you any. Hard workers get noticed do your job well and thecompany will most likly reward you for it. If your not paid what you think you are worth then tell your boss and see what happens, I am confident he will tell you if your doing a good job or not... Your other option is to leave, if your a hard worker and a good pilot, you will find work in no time.
Just my take on the subject trey kule, everyone can take it for what it's worth.
Kelowna Pilot, I do agree with you there. The thing is, I hardly ever hear of any complaints from pilots that have worked for CMA.....I talked to a pilot that flew for them that literally slept in his car while working for them, however he didn't complain once... CMA has been operating for years and a job with them seems to me would be stable. It also seems to me that CMA is a great stepping stone to the major's. I wonder what would happen if the pilot's wages went up, what would happen to the company? I have never worked for them, but i probably would if I wanted to go the airline route.
Kelowna pilot, is that 38000 for air canada or jazz? Not sure just asking...
I am a pilot here like eveyone else, I am tired of the complaining... Our industry is extremely volatile especially now that fuel is so high, we picked this job all knowing to well what it is all about, if you don't like it go do something else. I for one am tired of having the reputation as a pilot as being a whiner and thinking that the world owes me for being a pilot. I like what I do and I get paid what I am worth.