Mass exodus at Wasaya

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc, I think that " Reality Checker " needs a " reality check ".

Please tell me these guys are just being funny, can it be possible that anyone with an IQ over 80 really believes the crap they post here.

Reality Checker had part of it right though....

Chief Pilots hire pilots

Exactly and the last thing a real chief pilot looks for is a ramp worker unless it is to load or clean an airplane...but for sure not to fly one.

[Morav]

Go get PIC time you wont regret it.

Instruct, drop jumpers, survey work etc.

otherwise

There s nothing wrong with working ramp to get your foot in the door. Just do it with diginity. Demand good wages, time off, and a reasonble time to the seat.

[Doc]

Wow.....are these guys dense!

[Red Line]

., you'll have to help me out here because I can't remember the exact thread (something about First Nations Transport and C-46's) but I got the impression you got your start on radials by loading DC-3's??? I apologise in advance if I read this wrong. Not defending anything, just for debate's sake. Fill us in.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

., you'll have to help me out here because I can't remember the exact thread (something about First Nations Transport and C-46's) but I got the impression you got your start on radials by loading DC-3's??? I apologise in advance if I read this wrong. Not defending anything, just for debate's sake. Fill us in.

No problem Red Line:

I have never seen FNT and for sure I never ever worked loading any airplane I was not flying ......ever.

I got my start flying Radials on a Beech 18 in Windsor Ontario in 1964 at a company I was chief pilot for....I also got my helicopter license with them and they paid me my full salary and paid for my training while I was getting the helicopter license.

I got my DC3 and PBY training at Austin Airways in 1968 and of course it was all paid for by the company....prior to getting the DC3 and PBY type ratings I had been flying Anson Mk5's on survey work for Austins.

It was unheard of in those days for a pilot to have to work the ramp and there was no such thing as a PPC. And it was unheard of for a pilot to pay for training or sign a bond.

You were evaluated by the chief pilot who decided what airplanes you could fly and how many and where and in what seat.

And the TC inspectors were our friends who would go out of their way to help us. All they required was you demonstrate that you were a professional pilot who they could sign off and then go home and sleep well knowing we had the airmanship to get ourselves back home if humanly possible. The Inspectors in those days used the logic if we got the airplane safely to the destination the passengers and the freight would most likely still be back there somewhere in the airplane and would also have arrived safely.

There are many pilots on this forum who remember those days.

[cmadude]

I DO I DO.. CMA used to hire rampies too, but were contract workers and not pilots..when a change a management came, so did the thought process. "Lets get pilot wannabees to work the ramp". Back in the old day, i trained 350 hr to 1500 hr type guys in the 1900. Only let one 500 hr guy go due to lack of ability to fly. Then we did the rampee thing. Most didnt come online for 1.5 years from start. Way tougher to train then than the guys straight out of flight school. Years past I was able to train new people on average 5.5 hrs before ride. Now im hearing 10 hrs or more sometimes on the aircraft.

I started in the late 80's when interest rates were through the roof, but still found a job in the bush without being a rampee...

cheers to all. Especially the new people...find a flying job not a ramp job before the recession really kicks over... stay where you are doing non aviation until you find the elusive 172 or 180 bush work...awesome experience

[Lurch]

Wow I'm glad I've avoided this thread for so long, that is a few more days of my life that I didn't realise that there are this many stupid pilots in the world.

You have to prove yourself
Your not a real pilot yet
You have to earn the right to fly

I think there are a few pilots that escaped from Bountiful Bay on here

All I have to say to all these guys is when you apply to AC/WJ that you ask to be put on the ramp to prove yourself to them before they allow them to fly their jets. You'd hate for them to invest in your future and then find out you are a mindless drone

Lurch

[Rudder Bug]

Reality Checker

Please put some paragraphs in your next post. I got dizzy reading the heavy block of annoying text and Cat and Xs threw up. I took a Gravol and it helps a bit.

BURPS!

Thanks

[xsbank]

Well, Wasaya is hiring FOs for the singles and they want 1000 MIFR!!

So all you guys slaving on the ramp aren't even going to be checked out!

Still don't get IT?

Remember this?

[Reality Checker]

Yup thats correct, they wouldn't get checked out on the PC-12. Its there in black and white....theres no carrot dangling, its very up front. The entry level is the C208B, depending on how much time you have when you come to them depends on how long it takes to get to the 1000 hrs full time pilot position. There are no promises, they are not recruited. All things being equal they eventually get the PCC on the C208 and built their time to meet the required standards for additional progression. Wasaya tries to promote from within, at the same time they get a better wage than almost any other carrier of similar size and scope. They are not slaves, they work goofy hours and live in YPL, the work is boring, repetitive and not glamorous at all, welcome to aviation. Not everybody's cup of tea but remember they come by their own free will. I can think of tons of guys that have come through the doors exactly the same way and it worked out well for all of them.

[Freddy_Francis]

Funny thing is...whenever I join in on these ramp threads some people call me spoiled and lazy for not wanting to work the ramp. I find it funny how no one knows me yet just because I don't want to LOSE (thats right LOSE) a year of my career throwing bags around and what not, im declared a spoiled kid who doesn't want to leave home live in his parent's basement and drive around town showing off my cool aviator watch. Truth is...im looking for a FLYING job (believe it or not Cat and xsbank some people do listen...me hint hint). Im spending money so I can get on with my career....not literally send it back a year or two or three.

Should pilots work the ramp to get to a flying job?...my opinion it doesn't even come close to making sense. If you did work the ramp and got on to an aircraft, got yourself 1500tt and then went somewhere else....and they said "we see your qualified...1500hrs tt...500mpic" your number 28 a few months on the ramp and you'll fit in fine at this company!" you'd high tail it out of there and come on here slamming the company. So why does it make sense at 250hrs? Because im inexperienced? No shit im inexperienced...however your training captains should be HIGHLY trained enough that either a 200hr pilot or 2000hr pilot should be easily able to adjust and the training captain should have no fear in signing he/she off to be right seat as a newly minted part of the team.

Id have no problem doing the task's while being a part of the flight crew such as "Hey...could you please go and assist with the loading and ill do the cockpit checks so we can get out of here sooner"(feel free to insert the sentence in whatever free verse language you've heard before )...if I don't make sense feel free to call me a basement dwelling spoiled brat...someone said it earlier no wonder so many people flee for FLYING JOBS outside of Canada.

End Rant...it's time to put an end to this BS...your pilots....get the experience through flying jobs (jumpers...tow gliders...instruct...traffic...pipeline patrol)

...off to the basement I go...

[square]

Thank you to all you guys standing on principle, don't know if you'll actually make a difference in this industry but you sure are sacrificing yourselves to Thee Gods of Thee Avcanada. Seriously, go around demanding a straight-to-flying job with 200 hours and you are by definition the least likely guy they'll hire. There's always someone with more time but nobody with less.

It seems the guys who're completely removed from this stage of one's career are convinced that it's a piece of cake to just walk right onto the flight line but are you actually seeing it happen? Have you seen any ads for it? Are you hiring people yourselves? I sent out a hundred resumes looking for any seat on anything before I found a decent *ramp* opportunity. And I'm glad I did too, I spent as long on the ramp as it takes to do an instructor rating except I actually got paid, and well, for it, and now I actually get to fly the airplanes too, and not spend 14 hours at the flight school to get paid for the 2 and a half hours that I got to watch.

Seriously guys, it's just bad advice. Yes there are more jobs than there used to be, but there's still too many pilots vying for them. If you don't believe me try to rustle up some interest with a 200 hr resume of your own and no experience or connections to speak of. At least rampies are in the industry, learning *valuable* skills (yeah it is valuable to learn how to tow, fuel, load properly, help customers and dispatch) and an honest work ethic.

[trey kule]

Square...do you think this might have been part of the problem?

I sent out a hundred resumes

companies get these mass mailed resumes by the dozens a week.dont even look at them as a rule.

and yes. people are starting to hire 200's direct. Who...if you think I will post a name, read the above paragraph again. the problem is the 500 and 600 pilots, and even 1000 hr pilots coming from some companies are just terrible. Poor training. Experience has not been learning good habits but reinforcing all the bad ones. Very hard to start from the bottom teaching them most of it all over again...particularily with the egos involved...and even more particualrily hard if much of the time is "right seat on a 'van or a PC12". I am going to say it again and again. Unless you get a full measure of dedicated training prior to , jumping in the left seat of one of these planes is worse than a waste of time..worse because you actually are logging the time and believing you are getting experience. You, and I am sure many others would be surprised how little these wonders really know about the plane in an interview....boggles my mind sometimes.

Now, if you ave read this far. find companies that do hire low timers, then direct a specific resume to them. In the meantime go get a job that pays the bills and teaches you basic things like showing up on time, etc, and, if at all possible how to run AND TAKE CARE OF MACHINERY IN A RESPONSIBLE MANNER. You are not in flying school anymore....this is a job.
And besides being able to fly the aircraft there are other attributes necessary.

[Pratt X 3]

If I were chief pilot for such a company I would refuse to hire off the ramp and make it clear to any ramp employee that if they hold a pilots license they will never get a job as a pilot as long as I was chief pilot.

Cat, would you ever work for a company that hired low time pilots to work the ramp?

[xsbank]

There are 2 types of ramp job - the slavery, that requires you to polish the john to prove that you've got something to offer that relates to flying (total BS - they just take anyone eager enough to be exploited with no time-line to be checked out because you are being hired as ramp-fodder - then they say it is to 'evaluate' you), and the other type where you are hired as a trainee pilot, work the ramp but are being actively brought into the seat by flying empty legs, positioning flights and freight hauls. The CP or the training guy takes you out and does circuits with you. While you are waiting your next training session, you help out on the ramp. The purpose of this second one is to check you out, not to work you exclusively on the ramp.

The second one is totally reasonable.

The first one, the Wasaya one, is to cover management's incompetence and unwillingness to actually pay a professional ramp person what they need to stay at the job, enough money to put up with the sh*t that the line pilots . at them. This also perpetuates the existing culture, whereby the line pilots are not disciplined, fined or fired for creating a rift in the team that is supposed to operate these aircraft to everyone's benefit and company profit.

Like I said before,

[square]

Square...do you think this might have been part of the problem?

I sent out a hundred resumes

companies get these mass mailed resumes by the dozens a week.dont even look at them as a rule.

No I don't mean mass-mailed, these were all to individual employers, with a new and relevant cover letter for each one. Most of them were responses to advertised positions, and to operators flying smaller machines like jo's and 206's. But if they didnt have higher minima (250tt and 50 multi is pretty standard) than I fulfilled they certainly had way too many pilots to choose from.. and from what I've seen from the company's side of hiring, you get just as many applications from 600+ hour guys for those same jobs.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Cat, would you ever work for a company that hired low time pilots to work the ramp?

I might consider this kind of company.

and the other type where you are hired as a trainee pilot, work the ramp but are being actively brought into the seat by flying empty legs, positioning flights and freight hauls. The CP or the training guy takes you out and does circuits with you. While you are waiting your next training session, you help out on the ramp. The purpose of this second one is to check you out, not to work you exclusively on the ramp.

[BTD]

And I'm glad I did too, I spent as long on the ramp as it takes to do an instructor rating except I actually got paid, and well, for it, and now I actually get to fly the airplanes too, and not spend 14 hours at the flight school to get paid for the 2 and a half hours that I got to watch.

I don't want to start one of "these" debates, but don't slam the experience someone can gain as an instructor. My 2 years spent instructing have been a benefit to me through my medevac flying in northern Ontario and now flying 704. You'd be surprised how much you can learn by observing and being PIC. Try observing when your captains are the PF.

BTD

[shimmydampner]

I've never seen a post use so many words and say so little. I'm guessing you weren't captain of the debate team nor did you win any awards for pursuasive writing.

Says the spelling bee champ.

[square]

I don't want to start one of "these" debates, but don't slam the experience someone can gain as an instructor.

My apologies! Didn't mean to give that impression at all, just wanted to point out the benefits of going another route.

[Pratt X 3]

I might consider this kind of company.

and the other type where you are hired as a trainee pilot, work the ramp but are being actively brought into the seat by flying empty legs, positioning flights and freight hauls. ...The purpose of this second one is to check you out, not to work you exclusively on the ramp.

So you wouldn't fly for the other type of operation where pilots might spend a year or two (or more) working the ramp before getting a flying postition?

[Cat Driver]

So you wouldn't fly for the other type of operation where pilots might spend a year or two (or more) working the ramp before getting a flying postition?

That is a question that needs some thought to give a fair answer to....

...so lets see what may be involved in this decision?

Does the company have a management culture that sees nothing wrong with pitting numerous young hopefulls against each other vying for limited openings in airplanes where the wait could be for years?

I don't think I would be wild about being part of that type of operation if for no other reason than by the time I got the hopefull they may need a lot of training just to get back to the skills they would have had before they had to quit flying to do manual labor that anyone with a strong back and a weak mind can do.

You are asking me a rather tough question seeing that I have never experienced such an operation because I never ran into that kind of company during my career. Thankfully....

[Pratt X 3]

Does the company have a management culture that sees nothing wrong with pitting numerous young hopefulls against each other vying for limited openings in airplanes where the wait could be for years?

I don't think I would be wild about being part of that type of operation if for no other reason than by the time I got the hopefull they may need a lot of training just to get back to the skills they would have had before they had to quit flying to do manual labor that anyone with a strong back and a weak mind can do.

You are asking me a rather tough question seeing that I have never experienced such an operation because I never ran into that kind of company during my career. Thankfully....

But you did, in fact, work for such a company.

[Doc]

It's good to be the King.

[Cat Driver]

But you did, in fact, work for such a company.

Do tell, when and what company, I don't recall it but I have been wrong before.