Up to 50 reported dead in Spain plane crash

[Snowgoose]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08 ... index.html

MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- An aircraft heading to the Canary Islands came off the runway at a Madrid airport Wednesday, throwing up clouds of gray and black smoke and reportedly causing casualties.
Smoke could be seen rising from the end of the runway at Madrid's Barajas Airport.

Spain's two leading newspapers are reporting at least 25 people were killed in the incident, but CNN could not independently confirm those figures.

Officials at Barajas Airport said there were believed to be injuries from the crash which may have been caused by an engine on the Spanish budget airline jet catching fire.

The incident happened as Spanair Flight 5022 was taking off from the main runway, the official said. It was headed to Las Palmas in the Canary Islands, a more than two-hour flight. Watch smoke rising from airport Video

The Red Cross in Spain told CNN that it has set up a field hospital at the airport to treat the injured.

Spanair, owned by Scandinavian airline SAS, is one of Spain's three major private carriers.

CNN sister station CNN+ is reporting that the plane, an MD-80, may have veered off the runway after experiencing engine problems. Spanish media reported at least 11 fire engines were dispatched to control the blaze.

Media reports say around 160 people were on board.

Aviation analyst John Strickland told CNN the MD-80 is known as a reliable aircraft with a good safety

[Inverted2]

Now they are saying more than 100 dead

[jetflightinstructor]

A MD 82 crashed in madrid airport on take off.

An engine was on fire. Technical problem apparently. Not a human factor issue. Could you confirm?
Is that related to the cut on the cost that all airlines are doing now?
Those 100 individuals died indirectly because of the fuel cost????

[BushCaddy]

What?

[DA900]

jetflightinstructor I think you are jumping the gun a bit. There has been only speculation on TV by non substantiated witnesses. As you know these crashes take a lot more information to even start to form hypotheses on what may have occurred. I just saw a CBC reporter refer to this airplane as quite old. That it was built in 1992. 16 years is not old for many airlines. So I think it will require a lot more information before they even start looking at causes.

[Big Pratt]

There's around 150 dead, both crew and passengers.

DEAD as in not going to hug their kids ever again.
DEAD as in not going to have a conversation with friends ever again.
DEAD as in only being a memory to their loved ones.
DEAD as in their homes being empty.
DEAD as in never saying "I love you too" back ever again.

What part don't you get???

The smoke has barely cleared and you're speculating not even on the direct cause of this accident but on the root cause of it!

Please have some respect for those who perished today by not saying why they died!
Wait until some facts come out in the coming weeks, yes weeks, not the typical talking head bullshit you'll get from the news networks in the coming hours and days.

RIP

BP

[BigB]

What?

I agree.

[Hedley]

I have no opinion about this crash, despite the fact
that I know nothing about it.

[jetflightinstructor]

The died persons have my full respect. that not even to be discussed.


Journo speaking to BBC from Madrid saying that the plane aborted first attempt at take off - returned for mechanical check.. on the second attempt reports of an explosion, aircraft has come to rest between two runways..

[jetflightinstructor]

146 dead ppl
26 injured
3 missing

164 pax on board+ 2 infants
9 crew members

[Changes in Latitudes]

...sad news. We'll see what we can learn from this.

But while I am here...

Is that related to the cut on the cost that all airlines are doing now?
Those 100 individuals died indirectly because of the fuel cost????

"jetflightinstructor" did you eat paint chips when you were a kid?

[jetflightinstructor]

There were 4000 employees working for this airline. 2 months ago they fired 1000 employees (yes one quarter) due to the fuel cost.
Do I jump too fast on conclusions? maybe. I hope. Otherwise we may have others very bad surprises in the next coming months with others airlines. Sometimes when you try to save on training, fuel, maintenance, employee.... it may not be as cost effective as intended. Dramatic cost savings are dangerous in aviation. Sorry for not being politically correct.
But we have to react quickly. By increasing the tickets price?

[BigB]

Once again.....what?

[bmc]

There were 4000 employees working for this airline. 2 months ago they fired 1000 employees (yes one quarter) due to the fuel cost.
Do I jump too fast on conclusions? maybe. I hope. Otherwise we may have others very bad surprises in the next coming months with others airlines. Sometimes when you try to save on training, fuel, maintenance, employee.... it may not be as cost effective as intended. Dramatic cost savings are dangerous in aviation. Sorry for not being politically correct.
But we have to react quickly. By increasing the tickets price?

It's clear you know the exact cause of yesterday's accident. Please tell us exactly what happened and how it could have been prevented.

[Rockie]

Jetflightinstructor

Engaging in the kind of wild speculation that you did in your original post is just factless rumour mongoring. Attempting to link this crash to job losses just one day after the tragic event is inappropriate at best, and crass opportunism in pursuit of an agenda at its worst.

Why don't we wait until at least a few facts are known before we start assigning blame?

[square]

It is interesting though if they did cut a quarter of their workforce within 2 months. My next question would be, did they cut a quarter of their flying, or just lay it on the remaining employees who are out there worrying for their own job security?

[yycflyguy]

There were 4000 employees working for this airline. 2 months ago they fired 1000 employees (yes one quarter) due to the fuel cost.
Do I jump too fast on conclusions? maybe. I hope. Otherwise we may have others very bad surprises in the next coming months with others airlines. Sometimes when you try to save on training, fuel, maintenance, employee.... it may not be as cost effective as intended. Dramatic cost savings are dangerous in aviation. Sorry for not being politically correct.
But we have to react quickly. By increasing the tickets price?

Dude. Are you a journalist posing as a pilot? Your statements appear to come from someone outside of aviation.

[jetflightinstructor]

It is interesting though if they did cut a quarter of their workforce within 2 months. My next question would be, did they cut a quarter of their flying, or just lay it on the remaining employees who are out there worrying for their own job security?

They were planing on grounding a part of their fleet from september 2008.

This company has huge financial problems since the winter 2008.

Financial issues and lack of employee put large stress on the PIC and the maintenance. Canada is not touched yet by this problem. However this is a problem that any company can face one day.
5 days before the crash an other MD82 from the same company did a landing with one engine out.

[C23flyer]

Jet,

What you're saying might or might not be relevant, but you're not citing any sources. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

BTW, I updated the subject heading, as the Globe and Mail reported as late as yesterday that there were 166 passengers and 6 crew on board, with only 19 survivors. (I pray that Penelope Cruz does not vacation in the Canary Islands.)

[jetflightinstructor]

What you're saying might or might not be relevant, but you're not citing any sources. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

My source??? Spanair the company. their financial troubles, the fact that they get rid off 1000 employee, and the incident few days before the catastrophe (engine failure, emergency landing) is not a secret.

Of course in few months they will blame the crew, or the maintenance. They will hold them responsible. Nobody will never admit that financial troubles, cost savings, lay off can produce a catastrophe.

[Rockie]

You're still talking as if this crash were caused by short staffing and cost reductions. Stop.

The facts in this accident are not known yet. Wait until they are before you stand up on your soap box.

[C23flyer]

Here Jet, let me help you...

Spanair airline cuts jobs, routes

By Harold Heckle, Associated Press Writer
MADRID, Spain — Spanish airline Spanair said Wednesday it is cutting a third of its jobs and nine loss-making routes to survive reduced consumer demand and rising fuel prices.

The airline, which is 100-percent owned by Scandinavian operator SAS, said it is cutting 1,100 jobs and dropping 15 aircraft from its fleet of 60 to make savings of around $144 million by the end of 2009.

The carrier is to stop flying routes from Madrid to Vienna, Munich, Girona, Granada, Oviedo and San Sebastian, as well as Barcelona-Zurich, Bilbao-Malaga and Bilbao-Jerez.

Job losses are to be negotiated with unions over the next 10 weeks to determine how many redundancies will be voluntary and how posts will be shared by employees hired part-time. Job cuts will affect all levels, including management, pilots and flight crews, the airline said.

"Spanair is capable of leading a strategy to regulate the excess capacity which afflicts the market while at the same time maintaining its position as the first Spanish airline operating out of Barcelona and the second major airline to fly from Madrid," Marcus Hedblom, Spanair director general said in the statement.

Spanair is the first airline in Spain to announce job, fleet and route cuts as the economy weakens in the wake of a real estate slump prompted by the subprime mortgage crisis in the United States.

The airline said it would maintain 80% of its current network, retaining 260 flights daily to 48 destinations.

You're welcome.

[teacher]

Heavy MD-82 crashed in hot-and-high take-off at Madrid
By David Learmount
DATE:22/08/08
SOURCE:Flight International

The 20 August crash of a Spanair Boeing MD-82 occurred in hot and high conditions that would have reduced aircraft performance margins.

Persistent reports from multiple sources suggest its left engine failed and caught fire, but this nor any other information had by 22 August been confirmed by the Spanish authorities.

Madrid's main airport has an elevation of 2,000ft (610m), and the weather was fairly hot at 28°C (82°F) or 29°C (see box).

Heat and altitude both markedly reduce the power a jet engine can produce, although this is taken into account in take-off performance calculations.

Barajas's Runway 36L is very long to accommodate take-offs in summer conditions, which at the time included a very light wind that was varying between southerly and south-westerly.

Madrid Barajas airport details for 20 August 2008:

Active take-off runway: 36L
Runway length: 4,350m
Airfield elevation: 2,000ft
Weather details (METAR) around the time of the take-off:
Visibility more than 10km, no cloud surface wind varying from 180°/07kt to 140°/04kt air temperature 28-29°C
Planned flight distance from Madrid to Las Palmas: 1,765km.

The MD-82 was carrying a full load of 172 people, including 10 crew, four of whom were off duty.

The aircraft was fuelled to fly to Las Palmas in the Canary Islands, a distance of 1,765km (970nm), which is comfortably within the aircraft's range under the conditions.

At some point well into the take-off the pilots lost control, and the aircraft veered away from the runway to the right, and the widely dispersed wreckage eventually came to rest in a shallow gully between runways 36L and 36R.

The aircraft is believed to have got airborne, if only briefly, above the runway, but then to have landed back on it before veering off.

The flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder have been recovered.

A fierce fire appears to have been the cause of most casualties because the medical services are having problems identifying most of the bodies. The number of deaths has been put at 153, with many of the 19 survivors suffering serious injuries.

The flight was late taking off because, about 2h earlier, the crew had returned the aircraft to the ramp with a fault that is believed to have been an overheating pitot tube, although the authorities have not confirmed this.

See blogs, images and news on the Spanair MD-82 crash in Madrid on our Safety Channel

All the latest information from the Spanair MD-82 crash in Madrid on our safety channel
Spread the word: relatedbookmark it!diggit!reddit!newsvine!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... adrid.html

[C23flyer]

Multiple causes likely in Madrid plane crash that killed 153 people

By Daniel Woolls, The Associated Press

MADRID, Spain - A combination of factors likely caused this week's deadly plane crash in Madrid and a seemingly minor glitch that thwarted a first takeoff attempt will require further study, Spain's civil aviation chief said Friday.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Manuel Bautista said failure in one of the Spanair MD-82's two engines - if such a failure did occur - should not, alone, have been enough to bring down a modern aircraft because they are designed to fly on just one if necessary. The crash killed 153 of 172 people aboard.

"A set of causes probably came together to cause the accident," Bautista said.

An investigation is underway, with help from the United States and the airplane's manufacturer, and Bautista said it was too early to say if human error was involved.

Bautista said he has seen - but would not comment on - video footage from Madrid airport that shows the doomed airliner trying to take off. The newspapers El Pais and ABC said it shows no engine explosion, contrary to some witness accounts.

The video is reported to show the plane using up virtually the entire runway as it tries to take off, then struggling to gain altitude. The airliner eventually crashed, skidded, burned and largely disintegrated.

Only 19 people survived Wednesday's crash of the flight bound for the Canary Islands, Spain's worst air disaster in 25 years.

While taxiing, the plane abandoned a first takeoff attempt because of a problem with what the airline called an air intake temperature gauge near the cockpit. The gauge was essentially turned off, which is an accepted procedure, and the plane was cleared for takeoff, according to Spanair. It crashed on the second attempt at takeoff.

Aviation experts have described such a gauge problem as a relatively minor glitch unlikely to have caused the crash. But Bautista would not rule out a link, saying it depends on what else was happening to the plane then.

"A problem with a temperature sensor may not matter at all, or it can be very important, depending on what other circumstances accompany it," Bautista told the AP. "We will have to see what other issues were present."

"Clearly, the breakdown was important enough for the pilot to halt the manoeuvre and have it reviewed. But then again, the pilot considered it resolved because he tried again," Bautista said.

Investigators from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board in the United States and Boeing - which owns airplane maker McDonnell Douglas - and engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney have arrived in Spain to help.

The investigation is likely to take months. The two black boxes have been recovered. The government says the one that records technical data on the flight is badly damaged, but Bautista said he did not know how much this might hinder the investigation.

Five survivors had been sitting toward the front of the plane, the newspaper El Pais said.

One of them was 30-year-old Spanish telecoms engineer Rafael Vidal, who had been bumped off an earlier flight because it filled up. "Flying first class is what saved him," said his mother, Pilar Rodriguez, according to the daily.

Many relatives of victims are being put up at a hotel while they wait to collect the remains of their loved ones. Javier Nunez, a Spaniard in his 40s who lost three children in the crash, complained that their bodies have been moved from a makeshift morgue to a cemetery far across town.

"What am I doing stuck here in this huge hotel when my children have been moved 30 kilometres away? I want to be with them."

An official funeral has scheduled for Sept. 1.

Rescuers have told stories of heartbreaking poignancy.

Firefighter Francisco Martinez told of Amalia Filloy, a mother severely injured in the crash, who insisted that rescuers pull her 11-year-old daughter Maria out first.

The woman died, along with an older daughter, but Maria and her father survived.

Martinez rescued one of two little boys who survived the crash and took him to his truck to explain what was happening.

"He asked if what was happening was for real," Martinez told reporters. "He thought it was a movie, and asked where his father was and when the movie would end."

-

Associated Press reporters Jorge Sainz, Paul Haven, Harold Heckle contributed to this report.

Really appears to have not much to do with expected job cuts on the surface. Those cuts, by the way, were projected over a ten week period starting mid-July, and it was expected that many would come voluntarily or through attrition. I would say it would be too soon for any meaningful impact to come from the cuts. My opinion of course.

[niss]

How do 19 people survive a crash in which the aircraft almost denigrated?