Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
So if the groundschool is a big problem, how are some of you guys gonna feel about forking out dollars for hotels and bunks everytime a schedule comes out with no port pairings, and your check-in times are all 6am???
Things sure could've been better, yet we all say yes to the job when we're offered... knowing the conditions!
Things sure could've been better, yet we all say yes to the job when we're offered... knowing the conditions!
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Ali G wrote:Industry leading margins, and you are worried about 250,000 a year? This issue is one of the nickel and dime crap of which WJ needs to address.Flightlevels wrote: Industry leading margins of 14% are only there to be eroded by 250,000 minimum per year in additional hotel room costs.
What about the savings cost for all those porters and commuters who cancel their hotel rooms at their home port for the rest of their career with WJ? Many commuters bid for overnights in their home port.
Now, when i come out for recurrent training, it may be 6 hotels nights I need for the whole year, 8 tops. I can assure you that I personally cancel a far greater number of hotels in my home port.
As for being Calgary based, what about all the phonecalls I receive every day (that I often take) in my home port which save the company money and flight cancellations because of the logistics of being Calgary based. (ie a early morning flight in YYT or YHZ). How about the company pay for my last commute, since they would have had to pay for a Calgary based pilot to DH anyway?
Once WJ makes the investment in another base for growth and logistics, you may even see the margins go above 14% because you may elimate 300 hotel rooms a day in YYZ for example.
But, what do I know.....
Nickel and Diming? Have some lost the plot?
This is a brutal industry. It is due to the 7700 WestJet employee's "nickel and diming" everyday that we are able to produce those 14% margins. You are contributing to that N&D by cancelling hotel rooms. Good work. We must all not forget what got us here. It has been a lot of things but PAYING ATTENTION TO COSTS is a major contributor. It's a slippery slope and before you know it N&D turns into dollars.
As a matter of reference I believe that at Southwest you have to arrive with a 737 type endorsement. How would a new hire like to pay for that?
I would bet that having to pay for their accomodations while on course is not a big deal for the vast majority. Most are so happy to have finally landed at a place they can finally start getting a leg up in this crazy business that it just is'nt that big a deal. Granted it is a bit of a pain in the arse but small potatoes in the big picture. In a way , it indoctrinates and shows new hires that Westjet pays attention to costs.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Nutcracker, I have no problem with your scenario, and have forked out money in the past. I will do it again in the future. But, you have to remember, our future growth will not all be in YYC simply because the work is elsewhere.
'But you knew that when you signed up' crap is true when things remain status quo. WJ continues to reach further and grow into new markets, that old attitude has to change. I am sure more than one study can be done on the merits of another base.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but this 'you knew we were calgary based when you were hired' garbage is a little shortsighted IMHO.
Ivanhoe,
"I would bet that having to pay for their accomodations while on course is not a big deal for the vast majority. Most are so happy to have finally landed at a place they can finally start getting a leg up in this crazy business that it just is'nt that big a deal. Granted it is a bit of a pain in the arse but small potatoes in the big picture. In a way , it indoctrinates and shows new hires that Westjet pays attention to costs."
At your next job, is it ok if they charge you for your books and pencils too? When does it end?
Well, if I'm calgary based, then I won't cancel my hotel at all in an effort to represent the true cost of operating into mine and others home port to WJ. How would you feel about that? WJ knew full well I would commute when they hired me and, I imagine, hoping somewhat to their advantage. But, what if it didn't? Would I have still been hired? I would like to think so...
The point is cancelling my hotel is a big advantage to WJ. Why not break even and pay for my hotel in YYC from the start? Wouldn't that be fair? In return, Im more than happy to cancel my hotel in my home port. And, cancelling my hotel in the middle of my pairing usually costs me more money (for gas to go home to get my duty rest) How about a reimbursement for my reduced lodging expense? What about those N&Ds?
I am not trying to be an @$$. I am simply saying that in an effort to reduce costs, sometimes the wrong target is the one picking up the tab.
'But you knew that when you signed up' crap is true when things remain status quo. WJ continues to reach further and grow into new markets, that old attitude has to change. I am sure more than one study can be done on the merits of another base.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but this 'you knew we were calgary based when you were hired' garbage is a little shortsighted IMHO.
Ivanhoe,
"I would bet that having to pay for their accomodations while on course is not a big deal for the vast majority. Most are so happy to have finally landed at a place they can finally start getting a leg up in this crazy business that it just is'nt that big a deal. Granted it is a bit of a pain in the arse but small potatoes in the big picture. In a way , it indoctrinates and shows new hires that Westjet pays attention to costs."
At your next job, is it ok if they charge you for your books and pencils too? When does it end?
Well, if I'm calgary based, then I won't cancel my hotel at all in an effort to represent the true cost of operating into mine and others home port to WJ. How would you feel about that? WJ knew full well I would commute when they hired me and, I imagine, hoping somewhat to their advantage. But, what if it didn't? Would I have still been hired? I would like to think so...
The point is cancelling my hotel is a big advantage to WJ. Why not break even and pay for my hotel in YYC from the start? Wouldn't that be fair? In return, Im more than happy to cancel my hotel in my home port. And, cancelling my hotel in the middle of my pairing usually costs me more money (for gas to go home to get my duty rest) How about a reimbursement for my reduced lodging expense? What about those N&Ds?
I am not trying to be an @$$. I am simply saying that in an effort to reduce costs, sometimes the wrong target is the one picking up the tab.
Booyakasha!
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Look, WJ needs the commuters, let's face it. Maybe it's time to change the way we think, not just with new hires but in every way we operate. WJ doesn't need more YYC based people, it's obvious. The loss of revenue because of having to fill planes with DH'ers would be huge, and until the ports came along, it was a huge waste of crew's time, and company time(which means money). Maybe it's time to jump that last hurdle, the last step of evolution we need to do to become the size of company we strive for?
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
What if WJ did that and decided that all recurrents were billed 100% to the employee? My point is where does it end? It sure would reduce costs though.ivanhoe wrote: As a matter of reference I believe that at Southwest you have to arrive with a 737 type endorsement. How would a new hire like to pay for that?
Four1oh,
I have to agree with your post. I am just optimistic about change, and changing attitudes. More benefit can be realized than we may expect.
Booyakasha!
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I hope we figure it out sooner than later, as I'm not sure how much longer I'll want to commute. I'm trying to feed my family and that 5-6k a year it's costing me could come in handy elsewhere, like buying Scotch or something...
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
On the subject of ports, it's important to remember that the port is in theory supposed to have mutual benefits for the porter and the company.
The company benefits from the cancelled hotel cost and having you available at said Port City in the event of an IROP (if they can get a hold of U)
The porter benefits from reduced travel costs, less time and $$ at the crash pad hopefully, and maybe even getting rid of that derelict rust bucket sitting in the parking lot, and hopefully a better quality of life.
We all know the ports are not the end all fix for commuting but it is a step in the right direction and can only get better with time and save us all some big bucks. Some ports are better than others, I understand the YVR one has a lot of satisfied customers.
An eastern base would immediately make some people happy but imagine a successful port in every current port city with 95% of your flying being done from there, that would make a lot more people happy. Being able to come onboard and live wherever we fly, now that would truly be industry leading!
In regards to new hires and recurrents getting their hotels paid for, the cancelled hotel rooms from port overnights would seem at first glance to cover it. However what’s in the port system then for the bean counters, you might be home in Toronto if we need u last minute?? (Gotta be mutually beneficial) they need stats to back up the cost savings. It does cost money and scheduling resources to keep the port system running. And what if we get hotels paid for newhires and recurrents , than who else is gonna want it, the fas of course (all 2500 of them) wouldn't be fair to give it to the pilots and not them, right?
Cost advantage is what keeps us competitive and successful, lets keep it that way.
Fish
The company benefits from the cancelled hotel cost and having you available at said Port City in the event of an IROP (if they can get a hold of U)
The porter benefits from reduced travel costs, less time and $$ at the crash pad hopefully, and maybe even getting rid of that derelict rust bucket sitting in the parking lot, and hopefully a better quality of life.
We all know the ports are not the end all fix for commuting but it is a step in the right direction and can only get better with time and save us all some big bucks. Some ports are better than others, I understand the YVR one has a lot of satisfied customers.
An eastern base would immediately make some people happy but imagine a successful port in every current port city with 95% of your flying being done from there, that would make a lot more people happy. Being able to come onboard and live wherever we fly, now that would truly be industry leading!
In regards to new hires and recurrents getting their hotels paid for, the cancelled hotel rooms from port overnights would seem at first glance to cover it. However what’s in the port system then for the bean counters, you might be home in Toronto if we need u last minute?? (Gotta be mutually beneficial) they need stats to back up the cost savings. It does cost money and scheduling resources to keep the port system running. And what if we get hotels paid for newhires and recurrents , than who else is gonna want it, the fas of course (all 2500 of them) wouldn't be fair to give it to the pilots and not them, right?
Cost advantage is what keeps us competitive and successful, lets keep it that way.
Fish
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Ali,
For someone who has been with the company for less than 2 years, you sure do know how to stir the pot.
For someone who has been with the company for less than 2 years, you sure do know how to stir the pot.

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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Ali,
Our hotel costs are already built into the budget at full rate. When you cancel your room I suspect it's because you want to, westjet didn't ask you to - it's only in your best interest. When they call you for extra flying at your port city, doesn't westjet pay you at your rate or at time and a half? Nobody forces you, much like nobody forces you to apply here or accept a job here. I don't mind getting called out to dh. I think you know why. The bottom line is the majority of flying is from Calgary and your training is here too. You were told this on the telephone and in your interview. Did you forget? Funny how everyone gets tired of commuting and the true colors come out no matter what resources the company devotes to your cause or should I say personal agenda.
Here's a tip, if you want to have a simple life and work for a company based in a certain city such as westjet in Calgary for example - move there. For now it's the ONLY base.
Our hotel costs are already built into the budget at full rate. When you cancel your room I suspect it's because you want to, westjet didn't ask you to - it's only in your best interest. When they call you for extra flying at your port city, doesn't westjet pay you at your rate or at time and a half? Nobody forces you, much like nobody forces you to apply here or accept a job here. I don't mind getting called out to dh. I think you know why. The bottom line is the majority of flying is from Calgary and your training is here too. You were told this on the telephone and in your interview. Did you forget? Funny how everyone gets tired of commuting and the true colors come out no matter what resources the company devotes to your cause or should I say personal agenda.
Here's a tip, if you want to have a simple life and work for a company based in a certain city such as westjet in Calgary for example - move there. For now it's the ONLY base.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Bang on.Flightlevels wrote:Ali,
Our hotel costs are already built into the budget at full rate. When you cancel your room I suspect it's because you want to, westjet didn't ask you to - it's only in your best interest. When they call you for extra flying at your port city, doesn't westjet pay you at your rate or at time and a half? Nobody forces you, much like nobody forces you to apply here or accept a job here. I don't mind getting called out to dh. I think you know why. The bottom line is the majority of flying is from Calgary and your training is here too. You were told this on the telephone and in your interview. Did you forget? Funny how everyone gets tired of commuting and the true colors come out no matter what resources the company devotes to your cause or should I say personal agenda.
Here's a tip, if you want to have a simple life and work for a company based in a certain city such as westjet in Calgary for example - move there. For now it's the ONLY base.
It troubles me that someone so new (or not) would have an attitude like this. More ,more , more. I deserve this , I deserve that. TM was dead set against other bases. Maybe now we know why. To managements credit , one of the first things they did when TM left , was to institute the port system to make life easier for commuting flight crews. I thought it was a good move. With attitudes like this I'm not so sure anymore. I hope it is in the minority.
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
AliG,
It may be short sighted in your opinion, however in my honest opinion it's realistic! It is what it is and I am not trying to whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine my way to something it should've been. I am too busy enjoying my job for that!!!
Every improvement is ALWAYS a BONUS, especially when I've earned it!
It may be short sighted in your opinion, however in my honest opinion it's realistic! It is what it is and I am not trying to whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine my way to something it should've been. I am too busy enjoying my job for that!!!

Every improvement is ALWAYS a BONUS, especially when I've earned it!
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I'm with Flightlevels. Stop the bitchin'. The bases aren't gonna happen anytime soon. You have a great management team. I've been here six years and things have only gotten better every year.
It would be nice if we could pay for new hires' accomodation, but one can't have everything in this world. And seeing as there's no training bond, how to recover the costs from someone who bolts during or just after arriving at WJ? People have left here before shortly after arriving (argghh, C3!!).
If you commute, deal with it. If you're a new hire and can't afford accomodation, whose fault is that?
I think I'm more concerned about this company surviving than I am about the working conditions of professional pilots in Canada. Does that make me old, selfish, or just realistic? Maybe it's apathy.
That entitlement thing. It'll get ya...
It would be nice if we could pay for new hires' accomodation, but one can't have everything in this world. And seeing as there's no training bond, how to recover the costs from someone who bolts during or just after arriving at WJ? People have left here before shortly after arriving (argghh, C3!!).
If you commute, deal with it. If you're a new hire and can't afford accomodation, whose fault is that?
I think I'm more concerned about this company surviving than I am about the working conditions of professional pilots in Canada. Does that make me old, selfish, or just realistic? Maybe it's apathy.
That entitlement thing. It'll get ya...
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm flying just as many multi-day pairing as before the ports. That's not where the ports save/make money. They do it by reducing the YYC deadheads. So, for you guys in YYC who think this is all about the commuters... you're wrong. Improve the ports and you improve life for everyone in the system, even you YYC people. Once again, as I don't think we really want an eastern base do we? Are the ports not making a difference for everyone, and if we focus a little harder on improving port efficiency doesn't that benefit us all in so many ways? IE: Schedules, and PS?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the company owes me a thing, but as a greedy capitalist and owner and koolaid drinker, I think it's in all our best interests to evolve. If you want to talk about escalating costs, try filling a plane out of YYC with D/H'ing crews to every major center. I was here to see that happen. 3 crews on a plane deadheading to YYZ, and not just one flight a day either. No one wants that, especially since that prevents us from selling those seats. Damn, I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the company owes me a thing, but as a greedy capitalist and owner and koolaid drinker, I think it's in all our best interests to evolve. If you want to talk about escalating costs, try filling a plane out of YYC with D/H'ing crews to every major center. I was here to see that happen. 3 crews on a plane deadheading to YYZ, and not just one flight a day either. No one wants that, especially since that prevents us from selling those seats. Damn, I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I guess you need to be there for at least two years to have a valid opinion. Sometimes a fresh viewpoint is just what's needed.BigB wrote:Ali,
For someone who has been with the company for less than 2 years, you sure do know how to stir the pot.
It cracks me up, WestJet has openly stated that they want to be one of the worlds top airlines. You're never gonna get there with a single base in a single city of a million people. It seems that your interests are in conflict with each other. At some point the costs are going to be prohibitive. The port system is either going to have a real rehash to pass some of the savings onto the people that are doing the savings, or new bases are going to have to happen. I think the sooner that realization comes the better for you guys. The how many dozen 737's your getting in the next few years aren't gonna be doing most of their flying in and out of Calgary.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
and the truth will set you free!! 

Drinking outside the box.
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
where did you come up with 1500?ziggy wrote:Mattedfred....why do you even care if you are not here, or coming here, and based on your 1500ish posts, you should have known WestJet's policy by now.!
i care because i work in the industry and WJ is a very important part of the industry
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
endless glad we could crack you up, everyone needs a good laugh every now and then. I wouldn't sweat what goes on at WJ. We pilots who work at WJ don't know what the next move is so you're not likely to either.
mattedfred, if I were you (and I'm not), I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about the profession. Probably best to be selfish and worry about your kid's education, your mortgage, and your wife's sexual appetite (or your neighbour's).
But other than that, feel free to continue to avail yourself of your rights to publish your thoughts.
JD
mattedfred, if I were you (and I'm not), I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about the profession. Probably best to be selfish and worry about your kid's education, your mortgage, and your wife's sexual appetite (or your neighbour's).
But other than that, feel free to continue to avail yourself of your rights to publish your thoughts.
JD
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I don't feel like arguing MattedFred. Instead, i will sit back and continue to listen to your continuous moaning.
15K at Perimeter and 34.7 at QK. Way to help raise the bar!
15K at Perimeter and 34.7 at QK. Way to help raise the bar!
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I guess you need to be there for at least two years to have a valid opinion.
Please indicate where in my previous statement I am denying Ali from his/her opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, and I encourage that. However when one has a certain opinion the day before they are hired, and an opposite one the day after, it brings into question either one of two things: A) The person was either ill or misinformed as to the terms and conditions of employment, to which there is no-one to blame but themselves. Or B) The person knew full well all the terms, with the intent to disregard/disagree with them in the future. "A" is truly an unfortunate circumstance, whereas "B" brings into question not only ones commitment to a decision, but ones honesty and integrity.
Yes I agree, and sometimes an old viewpoint is what's needed. When weighing the validity of another persons opinion (within this topic specifically) we need to make the assessment if it is based on the well being of all within the company, or solely on that of self interest.Sometimes a fresh viewpoint is just what's needed.
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Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
i won't argue with you either ziggy. i was attempted to participate in an intelligent and respectful debate between two mature adults within the same profession. i would like to continue the debate.ziggy wrote:I don't feel like arguing MattedFred. Instead, i will sit back and continue to listen to your continuous moaning.
15K at Perimeter and 34.7 at QK. Way to help raise the bar!
i find it very difficult to read posts with the exact tone that the author intended so i apologize if you read any of my posts with a hint of a moan.
i agree that the starting pay at perimeter in 1995 and air ontario in 2000 was too low. i am working hard to improve my current working conditions at jazz. i also recognize how my working conditions affect others within the industry that do not work at jazz.
i welcome any critique of the current working conditions as jazz. perhaps the tone that you read my posts discouraged you from accepting my critique of your working conditions.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
Mattedfred,
Let me interrupt for a sec, since you asked.
Less min rest overnights!! Thats my wish.
Cheers
Let me interrupt for a sec, since you asked.
Less min rest overnights!! Thats my wish.
Cheers
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
For starters I want to make it perfectly clear that i'm not demanding anything and do still know what I signed up for when we started. I've also heard the whole "you're YYC based so suck it up a couple of times lately so I'd like to point out a couple of facts:
In the last month and a half since I started keeping track I have flown 1677 guests almost 15000 miles for a total of 1.5 million revenue passenger miles. All in overtime out of YYZ! Most of which was last minute and would have resulted in cx'd flights had someone not been there to do it! And I'm just one guy. What's all that worth?
Here's another point: Durfy himself said that not having to open bases saved the company $60 million. Do you think we'd still be a single base company if there weren't crew members living throughout the country who can be called to fly when things go south?
Again, I'm not demanding anything at all here. I don't even want the company doing anything rash and upping our costs without really thinking it through first. But I am glad that the Calgary- only mentality has started to peter out. Most people recognize that basing 121+ airplanes in a single town that's currently only the 4th busiest airport in Canada simply doesn't add up.
*edited by Rem to correct for some finger trouble: Make that 1677 guests, not 16777 as originally entered, balance unchanged!
Thanks bigB
In the last month and a half since I started keeping track I have flown 1677 guests almost 15000 miles for a total of 1.5 million revenue passenger miles. All in overtime out of YYZ! Most of which was last minute and would have resulted in cx'd flights had someone not been there to do it! And I'm just one guy. What's all that worth?
Here's another point: Durfy himself said that not having to open bases saved the company $60 million. Do you think we'd still be a single base company if there weren't crew members living throughout the country who can be called to fly when things go south?
Again, I'm not demanding anything at all here. I don't even want the company doing anything rash and upping our costs without really thinking it through first. But I am glad that the Calgary- only mentality has started to peter out. Most people recognize that basing 121+ airplanes in a single town that's currently only the 4th busiest airport in Canada simply doesn't add up.
*edited by Rem to correct for some finger trouble: Make that 1677 guests, not 16777 as originally entered, balance unchanged!

Last edited by Rem on Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
I think that's exactly it. You can't go around waving the "Calgary based, so suck it up" flag only when it saves you money. Then the next day go around and reaping the benefits from crews based around Canada, without giving them anything in return.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
People applying and accepting a job with Westjet will have to take the working environment at face value.- What it is today- Please come with the attitude that if anything changes to further enhance my lifestyle living away from Calgary is a bonus.
I can assure you and many will agree, that the company has been very progressive and has dedicated allot of time and resources to get where we are today. We are only 12 years old!
Debating in the proper internal channels is progressive, complaining on a forum is digressive by way of dividing groups.
Dave.
I can assure you and many will agree, that the company has been very progressive and has dedicated allot of time and resources to get where we are today. We are only 12 years old!
Debating in the proper internal channels is progressive, complaining on a forum is digressive by way of dividing groups.
Dave.
Re: Accommodations for Westjet new hirers during training
You're absolutely right Dave. This may sound a bit like backtracking, but I have every confidence that each day forward will bring positive change in this department for all Westjetters, YYC and otherwise. In fact the Company's philosophy of aligning the interests of Westjetters with those of the company really is true. I've seen enough proof of that since I've been here, not counting the great examples of the past couple of weeks.
The goal of my post was to throw out some hard statistics to highlight the value of having crews live where they do rather than debate vague hypotheticals. You're right though, there's a better forum for that.
The goal of my post was to throw out some hard statistics to highlight the value of having crews live where they do rather than debate vague hypotheticals. You're right though, there's a better forum for that.