jazz FO

[RFN]

Oh man! Apply to Air Canada!

I wish the rest of us had thought of that!!

[Inverted2]

Is it true they dumped their entire hiring board due to too much preferential hiring? Im going to apply too, I need a raise! lol

[Localizer]

Jazz pilots have a simple way of raising their wages, the same way every single AC pilot raised theirs; apply at a company that pays more! This notion that AC pilots are somehow spawned at the bottom of the list is pretty ignorant. I was working at a tier III regional prior to AC, I didn't want to be there for life, so I applied somewhere that offered better conditions. Really, it is that basic.

PC12 driver you got it figured.

Everyone is fighting for their piece of the pie .. you can't blame Jazz pilots for trying to gain more flying hence more security. Then again you can't blame AC pilots for trying to do the same thing. There is this so called sense of "entitlement" on both sides. Nobody is entitled to shit on either side.

Maybe coming to an understanding and finding common ground would be the smartest course of action instead of putting on the gloves and waiting for the bell to ring. CR is sitting ring-side waiting to see what we hammer out. Both sides could save current wages and maybe improve others if both ... I was going to say teams ... but we should all be on the same team ie "pilot team" instead of hunkering back in our little "company tribes", could have an open line of communication. (for those that like to read into things ... I am not leading to or trying to bring up GS ...)

[Jaques Strappe]

I agree with PC12Flyer 100%. Jazz getting EMBs then doing the flying at sub pair wages is only adding to the destruction of the profession. Why dont ppl see this, look at the United States.

Isn't the opposite true aswell? .. Shouldn't something be done to help the Jazz pilots get there wages up? Or is that a "taboo" suggestion? We bitch when something might affect us .. but then tell the other guys that its tough luck and there's nothing we can do about it. Sheesh ... all about me syndrome ... hope they find a cure for that one day.

Jazz pilots are free to negotiate their own wages. They are also free to leave and work elsewhere if they choose. Jazz is now a separate company and may be able to expand outside of the confines of the ACPA scope clause. I for one, wish that every Jazz pilot could negotiate a 100% wage increase because they are worth it.

Having said that, the wage increase will never happen so long as they are willing to do other peoples work for less. This is the only way the Embraer will end up there and will only serve to reduce their income and that of others. Just imagine, Jazz ALPA shows up at Westjet's head office and says " Hey Sean, we will fly your 737's for 25% less than your guys do now." They have a term for that, I believe it is called prostitution.

Now imagine, some jerk has the balls to sit in a Westjet flight deck and announce that that is exactly what they intend to do. Doing it at Air Canada is no different and the small minority of guys who have been doing this only serve to give Jazz a bad rap within the industry.

So no, it is not a taboo subject when it comes to getting the wages up at Jazz but it is taboo to try and steal the food from someone elses table.

[mbav8r]

I don't agree with what this F/O did, there is no place for crap like this in the flight deck. As a commuter who needs the jumpseat on occassion, this is not reflective of the majority. That being said there's a small group at AC that believe Jazz should not have any jets at all. There's even what I hope to be a small group that won't acknowledge a jazz pilot at all. I was told about the AC pilots that will wait too say hi until they can read whether your hat says Jazz or not. I didn't believe it until I experienced 1st hand on a few occasions. Whats with that?? I have no history, the 1st time this happened I was less than 3 months on-line. My point is politics go both ways and a small minority can make an entire group appear to be childish and selfish. I'm not saying that's how I feel today, but at the time when this occurred, I wondered if it was the majority that acted this way. I know now it's not

[Localizer]

Jazz pilots are free to negotiate their own wages. They are also free to leave and work elsewhere if they choose. Jazz is now a separate company and may be able to expand outside of the confines of the ACPA scope clause. I for one, wish that every Jazz pilot could negotiate a 100% wage increase because they are worth it.

True, they are and they can. They can basically negotiate whatever they want .. really. They could negotiate an 190 payscale or hell even a 319/20/21 payscale. There is nothing to say scope will stay intact once CR gets to the table. Really everything is up in the air .. as much as we'd like to speculate the future.

Having said that, the wage increase will never happen so long as they are willing to do other peoples work for less. This is the only way the Embraer will end up there and will only serve to reduce their income and that of others. Just imagine, Jazz ALPA shows up at Westjet's head office and says " Hey Sean, we will fly your 737's for 25% less than your guys do now." They have a term for that, I believe it is called prostitution.

They're not doing other peoples work for less pay. They are the highest paid Dash 8 drivers that I know of. So you can't call them prostitutes when they are operating their equipment at above industry standard. The RJ pay may be a bit on the low side but that is because they utilize the status pay system. They do seem to run efficiently .. No type jumping and they keep there training cost down. It just makes smart business sense.

Now imagine, some jerk has the balls to sit in a Westjet flight deck and announce that that is exactly what they intend to do. Doing it at Air Canada is no different and the small minority of guys who have been doing this only serve to give Jazz a bad rap within the industry.

I don't argue that this guy is a moron, and I don't argue its disrespectful to tell someone that you are going to take there job .. especially when you are allowing the fella a ride home in the jumpseat.

So no, it is not a taboo subject when it comes to getting the wages up at Jazz but it is taboo to try and steal the food from someone elses table.

Jaques .. everyone is guilty of trying to steal food off each others plate. That goes both ways in this story.

So like I said before ... maybe the two MEC's will find some balance somewhere and have an open line of communication to serve everyones interest. Its like a step-brother .. love'm or hate'm, but you gotta live with'm, so make the best of it.

Cheers!

[JazzJetDriver]

"I was told about the AC pilots that will wait too say hi until they can read whether your hat says Jazz or not."

Tell them they are going to give themselves eye-strain doing that. Most of the Jazz guys now have big red straps around their crew bags so as to make it easier for those pricks.

[JazzJetDriver]

Jaques Strappe said, "Having said that, the wage increase will never happen so long as they are willing to do other peoples work for less."

You obviously ain't been around this here aviation business too long. Isn't that exactly what the AC pilots did when they 'stole' the RJ's from the regionals.? I remember it well, ask Gary Dean et al.

[Cool Rythms!]

Massey1, I'm a Jazz F/O based in YVR. As a commuter living in YUL, I can fully appreciate the value of jumpseating. Although I'm not on our jumpseat committee and although I have no idea who this particular person is, I still hold my head down in shame. It only takes one to ruin it for everyone else! I don't know where this person got their information from, but thats not even the point here. The point is, don't bring that kind of attitude on the flightdeck with you when people are being so kind to you. I can recall a number of times due to loads, when being able to travel in the flightdeck has saved me from otherwise being stuck. I guess I have a different way of looking at things because whenever I'm able to sit in the flightdeck, I spare no effort in showing my appreciation. In fact, last week I had to sit in the flightdeck of a 777 from YYZ to YVR. During that flight, I was chatting with the crew about this very topic, jumpseating. I told them about a time last year in YVR, when an Air Canada Captain had approached me in the boarding area, asking for the jumpseat to YLW. Knowing that the flight was full and knowing what its like to be a commuter, I went out to the airplane and quickly got to work crunching numbers and doing everything I could to make certain that we could take our guest. We finally got him onboard and when he came into the flightdeck, he shook my hand and said "thanks for all your efforts". I quickly replied by saying "We're both members of the same family, the Air Canada family, and I will always do everything I can to help out a family member" Thats just my way of thinking. I'm an old school kind of guy and even though I know we are two completely separate companies, I have always looked upon Air Canada and Jazz as being one family. Its all about attitude. And having a good attitude is contageous. If you have a good attitude with others, they will do the same with you. We're all running the same race, so instead of trying to trip each other, lets help each other. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I hope one person's conduct won't ruin things for everyone else. So as many of my collegues have already done, I'm apologizing on behalf of this person.

Lets work together everyone!

Cheers
Cool Rythms!

[Cool Rythms!]

And while we are on this topic, I would like to say THANK YOU once more to the many Air Canada crews who have taken me in the flightdeck over the past year and a half, since I've been at Jazz.

Cheer once again...

[Jaques Strappe]

Jaques Strappe said, "Having said that, the wage increase will never happen so long as they are willing to do other peoples work for less."

You obviously ain't been around this here aviation business too long. Isn't that exactly what the AC pilots did when they 'stole' the RJ's from the regionals.? I remember it well, ask Gary Dean et al.

Yeah ok Jet driver

I happened to be at the connectors before the RJ was ever around. I was flying the grandfathered BAe 146's at the time. I say grandfathered because there was a scope clause for no jets at the connector except for the existing ones. There was no facility to allow for their replacement either. The RJ was not stolen, it was ordered in violation of the scope clause within the Air Canada Pilot's collective agreement. The Air Canada pilots enforced their CA. It would be much the same as Georgian ordering a fleet of Q400's possibly against the language of your scope clause. Would that mean that you stole their 400's if they clearly violated your collective agreement? I don't think so. I was a connector pilot at the time and understood it, so the fact that you don't, tells me you were not around back then and have since been fed a jug of bitter kool-aid.

[Jaques Strappe]

They're not doing other peoples work for less pay. They are the highest paid Dash 8 drivers that I know of. So you can't call them prostitutes when they are operating their equipment at above industry standard. The RJ pay may be a bit on the low side but that is because they utilize the status pay system. They do seem to run efficiently .. No type jumping and they keep there training cost down. It just makes smart business sense.

Localizer

That is a very good argument and yes, I will agree with you that Jazz are probably the highest paid Dash 8 drivers around. However, Jazz did attempt to get the Embraer by low balling the salaries. That is a matter of record and is why Calin was forced to resign the last time he was here.

There was once also talk of Jazz approaching Air Canada with an offer to operate everything from the 320 down at drastically lower salaries.

I have been on both sides of this fence and I know that there are those at Jazz who will stop at nothing, to get flying and aircraft away from Air Canada. That goes well beyond the ideals of having a scope clause.

[Localizer]

That is a very good argument and yes, I will agree with you that Jazz are probably the highest paid Dash 8 drivers around. However, Jazz did attempt to get the Embraer by low balling the salaries. That is a matter of record and is why Calin was forced to resign the last time he was here.

Was it Jazz approached CR? I was under the impression it was CR that went to Jazz and tried to pit us against one another in a bidding war. That was why we wanted him ousted.

There was once also talk of Jazz approaching Air Canada with an offer to operate everything from the 320 down at drastically lower salaries.

I remember something about this going around but I do find it hard to believe. It might have happened but then again I think it was just something spread to get people going.

I have been on both sides of this fence and I know that there are those at Jazz who will stop at nothing, to get flying and aircraft away from Air Canada. That goes well beyond the ideals of having a scope clause.

I don't doubt you that those people exist. There are people on the AC side that want nothing more than for Jazz to disappear aswell. I thought there was a proposel that would see the RJ's at AC and the Dash 8's go to Georgian and there would be no need for Jazz. So like I said .. both sides share the guilt. Maybe that needs to come to an end.

Here's to hope ...

[teacher]

You guys are funny. Some of you talk as if us Jazz pilots have any say in what type of aircraft management wants us to fly. We can make a stand on wages and working conditions but seriously, no pilot is stealing anything, we don't have that kind of power although some would think we did. I'd like to see one AC or Jazz pilot quit after they get told that they're getting the RJs back or that the Embraers are coming.

As for status pay it is the smartest thing at Jazz and I hope it continues. It drastically cuts down on equipement jumping and training costs. You fly what you want because you like it (schedule and type of flying) and NOT for the money. A plane is a plane is a plane. One shouldn't make anymore money at this level of flying just because it's big. As far as I'm concerned at AC, Embraer to 777 you should all be making the same amount evened out between ALL types. Some might see it as the best paid Embraer and worste paid 777 pilots but I see a healthier company and happier work force. That's just the opinion of a little dash dude though.

[squawk 7600]

Teacher,

Your scenario makes sense. You would see the younger guys/gals flying the 777 to far off places, whilst the older folks do the shorter hauls in the Emb. Leave the long hauls to the young buck's/doe's, and the short stuff to the oldies who just want to be home with their families.

[teacher]

Exactly, among the many other pros that it's too late to list...........

[Cat Driver]

As for status pay it is the smartest thing at Jazz and I hope it continues. It drastically cuts down on equipement jumping and training costs. You fly what you want because you like it (schedule and type of flying) and NOT for the money. A plane is a plane is a plane. One shouldn't make anymore money at this level of flying just because it's big. As far as I'm concerned at AC, Embraer to 777 you should all be making the same amount evened out between ALL types. Some might see it as the best paid Embraer and worste paid 777 pilots but I see a healthier company and happier work force. That's just the opinion of a little dash dude though.

Finally someone with a good suggestion.

[tonysoprano]

Status pay is a complicated endeavor in a large, multi equipment company. It has many negative up front implications which are hard to implement. The theory is well intended. The application is far from easy. In short, it's not going to happen at mainline. Not soon.

[Inverted2]

Status pay is a complicated endeavor in a large, multi equipment company. It has many negative up front implications which are hard to implement. The theory is well intended. The application is far from easy. In short, it's not going to happen at mainline. Not soon.

I know that British Airways uses this system. They must have at least as many types as Air Canada if not more. Would save millions in training costs when you think of it.

[Localizer]

Status pay is a complicated endeavor in a large, multi equipment company. It has many negative up front implications which are hard to implement. The theory is well intended. The application is far from easy. In short, it's not going to happen at mainline. Not soon.
Status pay is a complicated endeavor in a large, multi equipment company. It has many negative up front implications which are hard to implement. The theory is well intended. The application is far from easy. In short, it's not going to happen at mainline. Not soon.

Can't be that complicated ... As far as I know most, if not close to all of the Euro Carriers operate under the status pay system. But they have a work to live lifestyle .. a lot different then our live to work.

[tonysoprano]

Would save millions in training costs when you think of it.

How?

[Al707]

"They're not doing other peoples work for less pay. They are the highest paid Dash 8 drivers that I know of. So you can't call them prostitutes when they are operating their equipment at above industry standard. The RJ pay may be a bit on the low side but that is because they utilize the status pay system. They do seem to run efficiently .. No type jumping and they keep there training cost down. It just makes smart business sense."

They are one of the highest paid regional/ CPA suppliers around because Air Canada pays some of the highest rates in the world for their feed!

This of course is why the now departed (rescuers of the company) made off with a boatload of cash paid for by taking the Jazz Income Trust public!!

[teacher]

You save in training costs because less folks jump to another type for the money. Here at Jazz you got very senior guys who will never go to the RJ, why bother for the same money when you like where you are now. If vacancies are filled by new hires instead of internal movements than you only train 1 person, not 2. Imagine if our CRJ guys made more, than everytime a spot opened most folks would jump on the RJ and require a CRJ initial course and a Dash initial. As for it being complicated I may be bad at math but it seems pretty easy to me.

Sum of all salaries divided by number of pilots = average pilot wage. Yes you would have to take into account that there are more A320s than say 777s but I'm sure someone with better math skills could fit that into my little equation.

Did I miss something? Sure there'd be a little more work than that to implement and most if not all senior folks would scoff at that idea however what if it was grandfathered in and all new hires or those willing to switch did. It could be done pretty quick. It would be a jump in wages over the short term which would even out in the long. Unfortunatly most airlines don't look at the long term.

Does anybody else find it funny that in the same thread a Jazz pilot can be called a willing to do it for less prostitute and an over paid worker for the service we provide? We're not over paid, we're compensated properly. AC pays more than US regionals charge yes, but the level of service and quality of the product is not comparable. Just because other places accept bargain basement doesn't we all should too.

[teacher]

Just had another thought. I'm not trying to be confrontational however if AC scraps the CPA with Jazz, goes to a US regional or refuses to pay a decent price how will all your wages look soon after? How long do you think it will be before you start losing flying? Sadly if you folks think you can scope yourselves out of having your jobs take'n by a bargain basement US regional I'm afraid you'll be left with an empty bag. Most of us at Jazz don't wanna see you folks get screwed but I'm sure people with no history together (although for some this may not be a good thing) and making MUCH less wouldn't think twice about advancing themselves at yours (and our) expense.

I've said it a million times already, we're better working for than against each other.

[Jaques Strappe]

Sure, status pay is very easy to inplement when you have two aircraft types. Not so easy when you have multiple types, varying salaries by as much as $190K and a worldwide flying arena.

Of the major European international carriers with multiple types, which ones have recently switched from the conventional to status pay? I would very much like to see how they did it.

I would love to see a ststus pay system at Air Canada because I for one, do not want to be flying the oceans as I approach retirement. The company did look at this in 2003 but the initial cost of getting there was too great.

Everyone is fighting for their piece of the pie .. you can't blame Jazz pilots for trying to gain more flying hence more security.

So, respectfully, as for everyone trying to secure their piece of the pie and with Air Canada, Jazz and Westjet supposedly being three totally separate companies, Westjet reportedly having the lowest costs of the three, why is it then that we always here about Jazz attempting to get the Embraers and not Westjet?

Is that securing your piece of the pie or is it soliciting someonelses?