Beaver down off Saturna island (Updates)

[CLguy]

Widow that would be the one. I don't know all the details around it but I am sure if you called them they would be more than willing to answer your questions. As you can see by the dates they have had their Beavers installed with this STC since the late 90's.

I am not sure why every Beaver in the country hasn't been required to do the same.

[viccoastdog]

It can happen to anyone.

Well let's hope it doesn't, because that's a defeatist attitude.

The Beaver interior rear door locks are just awful. However I think I read an initial report that the divers found the doors open. I stand to be corrected on this though.

[bushwhacker]

When we first modified our beaver so the pilot could open both rear doors from the pilots seat the standard response from T C was NO.( it took years for the approval)
We built our own firewall battery mod for the otter, again with a T C NO. ( more years for the approval).
We have just finished our third summer of running our otter with a set of louvered upper cowls. (T C big NO when we approached them) This has been by far the best mods that common sense ever dictated. Not One upper cylinder has failed since due to heat. Prior to this we could expect at least a couple of cylinders a season ,( always #1,2,or 9) always heat related failures.
As anyone who operates standard otter knows a cylinder failure means an immediate landing is about to happen no matter where you are, over water or over bush.
These were all common sense things to do to help improve safety, with road blocks by TC all the way.
I don't think the response of hang a turbine on the front of the thing is common sense.
I know of a shop working on Fuel Injection and electronic ignition for 985's and 1340's which will also solve the heat issues . They have been fighting with FAA for several years for approval with little headway.They have several engines operating on Ag machines with excellent results.
It Seem to me that both FAA and TC only give lip service to safety related issues instead of trying to work with folks that Common Sense means something to.

Operating Beavers on floats without a way to get the rear door open in a hurry by anybody on board doesn't make any sense to me.That goes for any float plane.
C-206 = NIGHTMARE.

JP

[RatherBeFlying]

However I think I read an initial report that the divers found the doors open.

How far open? Once the doors are unlatched, how do you open them against water pressure?

Dr. Giesbrecht at the University of Manitoba has researched how to escape from sinking cars: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story ... -cars.html

Note his procedure:

• Remove seatbelt.
• Free children.
• Open window.
• Get out.

Unfortunately pax these days are not issued with window punches and I suspect Beaver windows are smaller than car windows.

For a floatplane, I would go for releasing the entire door.

[ALF]

We are all assuming that the pax were conscious and not able to open the doors. IMHO blowing off the doors when ditching in water is not such a great idea. The water rushing in would surely sink the plane in seconds instead of minutes.

Now don't ge me wrong...I know that no Beaver has a door that seals entirely.

I think one would be better off to smash out the window and climb out. The windows in the pax door are huge but don't think they would be easily broken.

All the best to the Seair family and speedy recovery to the pilot.
Pilot's...wear your shoulder harness. It saved his life.

[North Shore]

Note his procedure:
Remove seatbelt.
Free children.
Open window.
Get out.

That's interesting. When I took the underwater egress course for planes, it was open window/door, hold door jamb, then release seatbelt and get out. The theory being that if it's dark, and upside down, then the only way that you know where the door is, is in relation to your seated position, and the seatbelt is the only thing that keeps you there.

[buck82]

Unless there is air on the other side of the window (outside AC ) you wont be able to "punch" it out, and even then lexan is still pretty tough.

[cessnafloatflyer]

it was open window/door, hold door jamb, then release seatbelt and get out.

VERY TRUE -- i help out once in a while for Aviation Egress and that is the correct method NOT seatbelt off first. Whatever aircraft you fly practice with your eyes closed using the door and the windows and picture how every latch in the aircraft operates. Also, don't forget your lifejacket!

Be safe out there and be sure the advice you get is correct!

[Widow]

Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think cars in water usually end up arse over teakettle the way float planes often will. Keeping oriented upside down is much more difficult than right side up, which would explain the difference in recommended egress steps.

[Apollo]

I was always taught (regardless of car/plane), ALWAYS grab the door handle/point of reference first, before taking off your seat belt. Even if you're right side up, as soon as you undo the belt - you start floating away - add panic and shock etc... and even if you're in dad's '62 chevy boat - you can still get into trouble pretty easy.

[xsbank]

I think in this case that even with a quick release that the passengers probably hit pretty hard and were probably disabled before they went under. I suppose if everybody was found belted in that might clinch it.

If he hit a gust which put him back on the water and he touched down flat that would be enough to rip off the floats and upend the a/c.

Pure speculation.

[North Shore]

^ I'm kinda thinking the same thing, XS. *Pure Speculation* Downdraft/gust, touch the water, dig floats, nose over. Pax bang heads on knees due to lap belts, and thus unable to escape. *Pure Speculation*

I suppose we shall have to wait for the interim report.

A sad thing, any way you slice it.

[EricCAX6]

We are all assuming that the pax were conscious and not able to open the doors. IMHO blowing off the doors when ditching in water is not such a great idea. The water rushing in would surely sink the plane in seconds instead of minutes.

Now don't ge me wrong...I know that no Beaver has a door that seals entirely.

I think one would be better off to smash out the window and climb out. The windows in the pax door are huge but don't think they would be easily broken.

All the best to the Seair family and speedy recovery to the pilot.
Pilot's...wear your shoulder harness. It saved his life.

Opening the doors is really the only way out though. Yes water would rush in, but those old planes aren't even close to air/water tight anyways, like you said. I really can't see anyone busting out a window in a beaver, the only way I could imagine that is if you used your legs/feet to punch it out, like a kick, but that wouldn't be possible underwater, not to mention upside down etc.

And exactly, who knows if they were all conscious. The fact that they weren't even seperated from the plane says lots. And shoulder harness' agreed. I don't even know how pilots don't use them, it's almost silly.

[Widow]

I suppose we shall have to wait for the interim report.

The families will soon know cause of death. Dave's autopsy was done within days, and I remember how shocked I was when the coroner called to tell me the results. Just as I was on my way to his funeral. I was not ready to tell anyone, let alone the press, what I'd been told. Not for a long time I wasn't ready. In hindsight, I wish I had been ready.

[phillyfan]

The back of a Beaver is a crowded place with 6 pax. Jammed shoulder to shoulder, most people can't even get the door open with the airplane sitting at the dock. I don't even want to imagine the scene with the airplane full of water.

[JOE BOY]

Philly def agreed. It is jam packed back there and as i mentioned in a previous post to open the door is close to impossible with a full load let alone turned upside down in the water. I think repositioning the latch to the forward portion of the door would be a great leap forward in this type of situation. IMHO

cheers,

[RatherBeFlying]

When a floatplane is used in scheduled air service, one would expect in a survivable ditching:

• Passenger exits that will allow timely evacuation
• Restraints that will allow preservation of consciousness
• Placards that describe operation of emergency exits

The TSB has its work cut out. How TC responds will be interesting.

[PAXUNK]

Doors that will open easily underwater would be a great improvement.
But even with doors open, how do the rear seat passengers escape if the middle seat passengers are unconscious and unable to exit?

[sky's the limit]

The back of a Beaver is a crowded place with 6 pax. Jammed shoulder to shoulder, most people can't even get the door open with the airplane sitting at the dock. I don't even want to imagine the scene with the airplane full of water.

Good point, but going back to the pictures there, I'd say that was one violent impact. The pilot has some pretty serious injuries, so I can imagine it was a real mess in the back.

stl

[patter]

Quite often the pilot is interviewed while on powerful painkillers. Who knows how lucid that conversation is. I hope that he is well aware when he is interviewed, and also has an aviation lawyer in the room.

['79K20driver]

The door latch set up on the Beaver is simply a piss poor design. Not only are they in a virtually unreachable place, they are too small and would be hard to find if you are going by feel alone. I realize their flush mounted design allows the door to be closed if you are packing the cabin full of freight or whatever, but for a passenger operation there has to be a better way. Move the handles all the way forward and make it a lever style. Something that's easy to find and easy to grasp. Anyone who thinks that some kind of mod is unnecessary has their head in the sand (TC?).
Another thing is the seatbelts. There was discussion on here about a pilot's seat breaking loose but the seat belts saved his life because they were hard mounted to the fuselage. Years ago I flew a Beaver that had the old military style 4 point belts, which appeared very solid but they where attached to the seat frames only. So if a seat broke loose there was nothing the seat belt could do to help. Are there still Beavers out there with this style of belt? I know there are many (probably most) that have rear seats with the belts mounted to the seats and not the floor. I alway thought that was a weak design, not because seat mounted belts are inherently bad, but because the floor to seat attach points on the Beaver are generally quite worn and don't appear to be very secure.

[viccoastdog]

Quite often the pilot is interviewed while on powerful painkillers. Who knows how lucid that conversation is. I hope that he is well aware when he is interviewed, and also has an aviation lawyer in the room.

Interviews between TSB and witnesses (including the pilot) cannot be used in a civil suit as they are protected, as per the Act that created the TSB.

[viccoastdog]

So if a seat broke loose there was nothing the seat belt could do to help. Are there still Beavers out there with this style of belt? I know there are many (probably most) that have rear seats with the belts mounted to the seats and not the floor. I alway thought that was a weak design, not because seat mounted belts are inherently bad, but because the floor to seat attach points on the Beaver are generally quite worn and don't appear to be very secure.

Yes, those four point harnesses attached to pilot's seats are still around on some Beavers. The very rear sling-type seats have seatbelts attached to the floor; good and solid. But certain middle seats have the belts only attached to the seat back pivot point (the Atlee Dodge seat mod comes to mind), and these seats have a weak attachment to the aircraft itself. The mass of three passengers on that seat in an impact is going to have a lot of inertia moving the seat forward into the front two seats.

[Blown Juggs]

Not sure if I can get this picture thingy to work, but here goes a picture of our Beaver with the modified door handles. Pretty easy mod and it enables the pilot to open both rear doors without leaving his seat.

PC050223.jpg (25.53 KiB) Viewed 2016 times

[North Shore]

Blown,

upside down, in cold, dark water and 3 fat turkeys in the way, a guy is going to be able to reach back from his seat, and open those doors? I dunno about that...
How about putting the handles at the leading edge of the door, right about where the pax knees are. That, IMveryHO, would be the best location..