Ice Pilots of NWT Series on History Channel this Fall!

[godsrcrazy]

I wonder if this show will make MOT and WCB stand up and pay attention and look around at what all went on while this was being taped and what still goes on The young girl flying a sched with no training can't be legal. Its 1 thing to let someone sit in the right seat with an auto pilot on board. But another to put them in the left seat.

Might have a little to do with the James Dean attitude Mickey talked about in the first show.

Kudos to the girl that outwit the complainer. Ask him where he is now! Working for Sunwest not much has happened for him he is still on the ramp, still sweeping ac and probaly will be outplayed by the other female PIW over there!

I don't think she outwit the complainer as much as was better to look at. From what i know of Joe if you don't pull your wait your gone. Were are all the women that keep claiming they just want to be treated equal. I wonder how many times Joe got his ass out of the captains chair for a new male rampie. I bet NEVER.

[_dwj_]

I wonder if this show will make MOT and WCB stand up and pay attention and look around at what all went on while this was being taped and what still goes on The young girl flying a sched with no training can't be legal. Its 1 thing to let someone sit in the right seat with an auto pilot on board. But another to put them in the left seat.

Yeah, she was in the left seat, but Joe was standing right behind her the whole time and he only let her sit there during the cruise (during which, as far as I'm aware, it's perfectly legal for nobody to be in the left seat if the captain is taking a piss or having a nap). So I don't see what the problem is.

Now, getting people to climb up on the wings and shovel the snow off without any protective equipment is a completely different matter...

[Donald]

Yeah, she was in the left seat, but Joe was standing right behind her the whole time and he only let her sit there during the cruise (during which, as far as I'm aware, it's perfectly legal for nobody to be in the left seat if the captain is taking a piss or having a nap). So I don't see what the problem is.

Pilot Qualifications

705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person

(a) holds the licence, ratings and endorsements required by Part IV;

(b) within the previous 90 days,

(i) has completed at least three take-offs and three landings as the pilot at the controls and one sector assigned to duty as a flight crew member in an aircraft of that type,

(ii) has completed five sectors assigned to duty as a flight crew member in an aircraft of that type, or

(iii) has fulfilled the training requirements set out in the Commercial Air Service Standards;

(c) has successfully completed a pilot proficiency check, the validity period of which has not expired, for that type of aircraft, in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards;

(d) has successfully completed or is undergoing a line check or line indoctrination training, the validity period of which has not expired, for that type of aircraft, in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards; and

(e) has fulfilled the requirements of the air operator's training program.

(2) A pilot who does not meet the requirements of subparagraph (1)(b)(i) or (ii) shall regain competency in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(3) An air operator may permit a person to act and a person may act as the pilot-in-command or second-in-command of an aircraft where the person does not meet the requirements of subsection (1), if

(a) the aircraft is operated on a training, ferry or positioning flight; or

(b) the air operator

(i) is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate, and

(ii) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(4) A pilot shall, on successful completion of a pilot proficiency check, meet the requirements of the consolidation period in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

Flight Crew Members at Controls

705.29 (1) Subject to subsection (2), flight crew members who are on flight deck duty shall remain at their duty stations with their safety belts fastened and, where the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL, with their safety belts, including their shoulder harnesses, fastened.

(2) Flight crew members may leave their duty stations where

(a) their absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(b) their absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(c) they are taking a rest period and are relieved by other flight crew members who meet the qualifications set out in the Commercial Air Service Standards.

[_dwj_]

705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person

She wouldn't have been PIC or P2 while at the controls, so I don't think this applies.

Flight Crew Members at Controls

705.29 (1) Subject to subsection (2), flight crew members who are on flight deck duty shall remain at their duty stations with their safety belts fastened and, where the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL, with their safety belts, including their shoulder harnesses, fastened.

(2) Flight crew members may leave their duty stations where

(a) their absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(b) their absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(c) they are taking a rest period and are relieved by other flight crew members who meet the qualifications set out in the Commercial Air Service Standards.

PIC (Joe) would be relieved by his P2 when he left his seat. If you want you could argue that he shouldn't have left his seat because it didn't fit into one of these 3 situations. But I'm still not seeing why it was a safety issue.

[godsrcrazy]

705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person

She wouldn't have been PIC or P2 while at the controls, so I don't think this applies.

Flight Crew Members at Controls

705.29 (1) Subject to subsection (2), flight crew members who are on flight deck duty shall remain at their duty stations with their safety belts fastened and, where the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL, with their safety belts, including their shoulder harnesses, fastened.

(2) Flight crew members may leave their duty stations where

(a) their absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(b) their absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(c) they are taking a rest period and are relieved by other flight crew members who meet the qualifications set out in the Commercial Air Service Standards.

PIC (Joe) would be relieved by his P2 when he left his seat. If you want you could argue that he shouldn't have left his seat because it didn't fit into one of these 3 situations. But I'm still not seeing why it was a safety issue.

It sure looked like she had here hands on the controls and was flying the aircraft. While the co pilot had his hands off the controls. That makes her pilot in command.

[Donald]

An extreme example of why not to do it:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19940323-0

What's that saying, regs or sop's are usually written in blood?

[Janszoon]

It sure looked like she had here hands on the controls and was flying the aircraft. While the co pilot had his hands off the controls. That makes her pilot in command.

Joe would have been PIC no matter where he was on the aircraft and no matter who was flying. You're confusing Pilot Flying and Pilot Not Flying with PIC and SIC.

[gianthammer]

The bottom line is that getting up on the wing and sweeping it yourself is just faster then F-ing around with any lifts that Buffalo had when I was there, so for the folks out there that say that they are cheap because they don't supply proper lifts for there employees I would say shut your mouth before you go shooting it off. I swept wings off a DC-4 for nearly four years never fell once and after some practice it takes a short time, and if it was to slippery then one would just grab a ladder and go bit by bit.(Remember we were operating in Sub Arctic temps not Vancouver Island so I would not trust a 50 lift in temps like that if it was kept out side and there is only so much room inside to keep the essentials)

Time being the big factor one guy can only sweep wings fuel an A/C fire up a couple hermans, do paperwork and load an Aircraft in so much time.

As far as the broads at Buffalo jumping past guys on the ramp it only happened if the guys they jumped past were fuckin retards and deserved it, Not one chick jumped the line while I was there. I think personally Joe likes to see the rampies get there nose's out of Joint by putting a chick in his seat on their first day, but that is where their advancement would stop. They guys would get all huffy and work harder to get there shot in the The guy would move on in order and the chicks would be huffy cause they thought shakin it for Joe would advance them. In the end one man wins....Joe...

[Donald]

gianthammer: Is faster more important than safe? You say you did not fall once in 4 years, if you fell in your fifth year and hurt yourself bad (let's say a couple broken vertebrae), would you think oh well I had 4 good years? If time is such a big factor, why not have several guys prep an aircraft? How many rampies does the burgundy tail use next door?

Since you mention how difficult it is to operate in "Sub arctic temps", how do the other companies in YZF do it? Does First Air, Canadian North, Summit, Air Tindi, Arctic Sunwest all have one rampy without a ladder to prep each and every aircraft?

Or are you just winding up the "I-toughed-it-out-and-didn't-kill-myself-so-I-must-be-better-than-you" defense?

[_dwj_]

So if it's better to climb up on the wing, perhaps you should be using some kind of anti-slip boots like the Tarantula ones sold by Mark's. And possibly some kind of anti-slip pads on your knees if such a thing exists. Would just cost about $100 and might save you from breaking your back.

Didn't they say on one of the episodes that someone else fell off the wing a while earlier?

[gianthammer]

Hey Donald,

Im not saying the way I did things was the way everyone should do things, I have no Idea about what the boys at Tindi, Sunwest FirstAir Blah Blah Blah Blah BlahBlah Blah. I know I got paid well I did my job and made things work the best way I could and never once did I cry about feeling unsafe, If I ever felt unsafe or did not want to do someting then I just found another way to do it Where I did feel safe. Again this was my meager opinion as to how to approach doing all my pre flight duties in the shortest amount of time and he least impact on the company. We had ramp rats doing shit But I let the Fags on the Light Twins (DC-3, C-46) have em'to keep the Red Faced devil out of my hair. Walking on the wings is not always safe and thats why I would prefer to just grab a ladder rather than walking back to the yard from BBE firing up one of the lifts warmimng it up and driving it over with one of the rampies in the bucket. Safe Is Good Fast Is better

[Dust Devil]

I would say I'm amazed at the number of people here looking for nothing but violations in this show but then I'd be a liar.

[Double Wasp]

Since you mention how difficult it is to operate in "Sub arctic temps", how do the other companies in YZF do it? Does First Air, Canadian North, Summit, Air Tindi, Arctic Sunwest all have one rampy without a ladder to prep each and every aircraft?

Donald,

Try not to get your knickers all knotted. You work for that red and white company don't you? Probably shouldn't throw stones in a glass house and all that when it comes to this stuff. The air of superiority that is complained about by the red team about the maroon team is exactly the same one the red team uses against the green team. While you may have tons of examples why one is better than another there are also plenty that can go the other way.

Regarding ulu there was enough seats so don't worry about that, besides if one wants to start looking at your side of the fence you'll find plenty of dirt there as well, just like everywhere else. SMS wipes everything clean anyhow doesn't it?

As far as getting up on slippery wings is concerned Buffalo is not alone there. I have seen a certain company with hercs in YK clean snow the same way, while not at the same angle it is a lot higher than the wing of a 46. How do the twin otters wings get cleaned in the bush again? How are the oils checked or the wing tents put on again when a ladder is not available? And why do they have those little ladder like appendages on the side of the twin otter, just behind the cockpit door, usually with convienient handle on the roof, vortex generation?

Take it from someone who has actually seen both sides of the coin folks, nobody is perfect. Try not to pick apart every little thing and just enjoy the show.

Cheers
DW

[godsrcrazy]

I would say I'm amazed at the number of people here looking for nothing but violations in this show but then I'd be a liar.

I would say I'm amazed at the number of people on here defending the violations in this show. I guess we should all go to work for MOT and WCB and just turn our back.

[Double Wasp]

Dust Devil wrote:
I would say I'm amazed at the number of people here looking for nothing but violations in this show but then I'd be a liar.

I would say I'm amazed at the number of people here looking for nothing but violations in this show but then I'd be a liar.

I would say I'm amazed at the number of people on here defending the violations in this show. I guess we should all go to work for MOT and WCB and just turn our back.

Why don't you lead by example and get the job yourself. Would that not be more productive than working the "holier than thou attitude" on a anonymous public forum? Try something new and post something that you enjoyed about the show for once. I am sure TC is well aware of what goes on at Buffalo keeping in mind there are a fair few inspectors that have worked there before.

Not trying to defend what goes on however name me the place that is perfect. The difference is Buffalo wears its heart on its sleave for all to see.

Cheers
DW

[NJ]

They came up to the tower a lot last spring to film. Usually just the camera guy. No sound guy, sometimes a producer or director tagged along. They did a lot of shots from helicopters doing flybys and chasing the aircraft on take-off and landing. Those shots haven't really been aired, but they looked pretty cool when it was happening.

[co-joe]

My guess about the grl's "lines", is that the producers wanted to add some perceived bullshit. Most of this industry is full of bullshit politics anyway so why not a tv show about it? They probably said to joe:"..hey man, your flight line is a bit of a sausage fest" or something like that. "hey lets add some taco to the mix to empower our female viewer ship". Did you notice the token shot of a female left seater in the dash at Sunwest taken with a zoom lens from 100 yards away?

[godsrcrazy]

My guess about the grl's "lines", is that the producers wanted to add some perceived bullshit. Most of this industry is full of bullshit politics anyway so why not a tv show about it? They probably said to joe:"..hey man, your flight line is a bit of a sausage fest" or something like that. "hey lets add some taco to the mix to empower our female viewer ship". Did you notice the token shot of a female left seater in the dash at Sunwest taken with a zoom lens from 100 yards away?

When did Sunwest start flying Dash 7's

Don't get me wrong here people. I think they did a stand up job on this show so far. A pile better then Ice road truckers and deadliest catch with all the dramatics in them shows. I guess i lost touch with what the show was about. I thought it was a reality show. Meaning we don't bring in people just to crank others up.

[sidestick stirrer]

so far, no one has convinced me that ANYONE has to be up on the wings, to sweep off the snow at least.
could someone who's actually been doing that in those far-below-freezing conditions enlighten me as to what you found under the snow? Was it a clean wing, or was it a thin layer of frost?
If it was a clean wing, then there is technically nothing "adhering" to the wing, and no manual removal is required in the CARS; the takeoff roll will take care of it.
Hasn't anyone ever noticed some carriers quite legally taking off with snow on the wings and tail, creating a mini-blizzard on the roll down the runway? They don't get violated for it, as it is permitted under the regs.
I mean, if there's a foot of heavy snow on the wing, sure, get rid of most of it. If there's a couple of inches, reduce the manpower requirements and the risk to the crew.
If the metal surface is way below freezing, if the fuel in a wet wing is below freezing, if the falling snow is way below freezing, if the airplane doesn't sit in strong sunlight with temperatures just-below freezing, then you should be good to go, with the mandatory tactile check of the surface beneath the snow covering.
I couldn't believe the lengths of heavy rope coiled in the bellys of old American-registered airplanes, used to quite-legally polish the roughness out of frost. They just got rid of that procedure.

[North Shore]

As far as getting up on slippery wings is concerned Buffalo is not alone there. I have seen a certain company with hercs in YK clean snow the same way, while not at the same angle it is a lot higher than the wing of a 46. How do the twin otters wings get cleaned in the bush again? How are the oils checked or the wing tents put on again when a ladder is not available? And why do they have those little ladder like appendages on the side of the twin otter, just behind the cockpit door, usually with convienient handle on the roof, vortex generation?

I don't think we are talking about what you do at East Podunk Lake or Fort Nowhere when you have to overnight every once in a while. In those cases, you gotta do what you gotta do, and be damned careful doing it. We are talking about the company's main base where they are using a risky, jim-crack system for cleaning off wings. There's simply no excuse for not having a safe system in place.

[Double Wasp]

Pretty sure I wasn't making excuses just pointing out they were not alone.
DW

[Freddy_Francis]

The attitude of the new female rampie is bugging me. Chicks in this industry can sometimes have a bad rap for getting ahead on nothing but tits and ovaries... and its a shit eating grin like hers that furthers the problem. Not ALL female pilots are like that and frankly I would hate to get ahead based on my sex and not based on my ability to pull my weight like everyone else. I wonder how long the other ramp guy has been working there without a chance at even sitting in the airplane and newby chick is getting a chance to sit left seat? ... Stupidity... I hate that she says something along the lines of "if they offered me a chance to fly tomorrow I would say yes" (insert "even if it means I get to step over everyone else who ACTUALLY earned it because I have boobs..")

Look...I don't wanna be a jerk or start a bitchfest,or a "ramp to flight line war", but are you seriously telling me if you started working the ramp and within a couple weeks,months you got on the flight line and "jumped" someone who was in line before you...you would stand up, and DEMAND that the person in front of you get's put on before you? Isn't that the whole point of the whole "rampie to pilot" Thing? To prove your not an idiot, have work ethic, and you can work hard? Not just the cheap labour with the carrot dangling act? I'd rather hear her honest answer that she doesn't like the ramp and wants to fly (the whole purpose of being a pilot apparently) then some more of that spoonfed "Im here to pay my dues!, as all low hour 200hr pilots must do so we can impress whoever it is whose benefiting from the carrot dangler, cheap labour! If I hear the phrase "pay your dues" once more, I'm gonna snap.

Take note....
-Im not taking a shot at Buffalo
-The show isn't that bad, its dramatized a bit but what isn't on TV? seems like a good group of guys (thats what the show's editing is showing anyway) they look like a tight family.
-I wonder if theres a crab fishermens board with ppl complaining about "The Deadliest Catch"

[raven54]

I wonder if theres a crab fishermens board with ppl complaining about "The Deadliest Catch"

Too funny. Makes you realize how stupid we'd look from an outside perspective.

[matt777]

Jeeze, you guys are making fun of Transport guys having a movie night watching the show and looking for violations when your way worse!!

Put the CARs away and enjoy the show

[chu me]

Did someone mention sausage fest..... this whole thread is a sausage fest. As for safety, I wonder what widow thinks of this whole thing, she will tell us if it is safe or not.