Retirement - Split from Hiring

[ivanhoe]

Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons and that doesn't make them a bad person. How old is Warren Buffet? It's not like he needs the money is it?


Rockie

Right on! This illustrates how I feel. Why would'nt I want to keep doing something I enjoy as long as I can?

I'm thankful that the WestJet pilot's saw this as a good thing and fought to allow 60+ to continue to fly. We have several and they continue to be an asset to our company. I don't plan to fly a full schedule at 60+ , but a few parings a month will keep me happy and productive until I (emphasis on "I") decide I've had enough.

[Rockie]

There are so many reasons why a person might have to work for financial reasons they can't be counted. None of them are good, and I'm pretty sure no one would willingly choose any of them.

Wishing to work because you prefer it over not working is not a problem, it is a preference. I also know lots of well adjusted people who have grown old and died because they stopped working and had nothing to fill the void. You cannot think less of them for it.

What about those behind the 60 – 65 groups who may/will not get advancement to a better paying position, hence giving them better pension return.

They will get the advancement into the better paying position, they just might have to wait a little for it. But as I've said most guys do that to themselves anyway because they don't want to sit at the bottom of an airplane list so they can get weekends off. I confess to having little sympathy for FO's who could be Captains, or EMJ Captains who could be 320 Captains complaining about being delayed a little in their progress. Put up or shut up.

If they choose to stay they will also have an even better pension, not a worse one. If they go at 60 in today's world they are opting for early retirement and do so of their own free will.

[Rockie]

"Mandatory retirement" implies that one group is forcing another to do something. In Air Canada's case this is not so. Air Canada and ACPA have reached a MUTUALLY agreed upon age of retirement. This is a simple case of democracy winning out.

No. Mandatory retirement is forcing an individual to retire against their will. It is age discrimination to force me, you, and anybody else to retire against your will just because you've reached the age of 60. Please read up on mandatory retirement and individual rights.

You can use all the legal mumbo jumbo and quote from the CHRT ruling all you want.

Where are you from? Don't they have laws in your country and don't you have to comply with them?

were you personally argueing this point when you were 30, 35, 45? I would bet the answer is a big fat NO!!!

This has been raised many times before. A person cannot go to the CHRT until they have been discriminated against. Nobody is discriminated against until they are forced to retire. That's why nobody filed the complaint when they were under 60. But I fully support and argue against mandatory retirement and I'm not 60 yet, so I'm doing exactly what you say I'm not doing.

[bcflyer]

You will likely also get your best five years in as a widebody captain by the time you're 60 because according to historical information your career will be delayed a whole 9 months.

Can you please post a link to this "historical information"?

[Rockie]

It's included in evidence from this guy:

Summary of Evidence by Dr. Jonathan R. Kesselman
Canadian Human Rights Tribunal
(Thwaites et al./Air Canada and ACPA)
November 6, 2009

presenting evidence in the next round of hearings. You can read it on the mandatory retirement thread on page 9. It's right at the top posted by DOCAV8R. It takes a while but I encourage you to read the whole thing.

[bcflyer]

This has been raised many times before. A person cannot go to the CHRT until they have been discriminated against. Nobody is discriminated against until they are forced to retire. That's why nobody filed the complaint when they were under 60. But I fully support and argue against mandatory retirement and I'm not 60 yet, so I'm doing exactly what you say I'm not doing.

While you may not be able to go to the CHRT, there certainly isn't anything to prevent the complaintants from approaching the union to attempt to get things changed well in advance of their retirement. If they really felt strongly that age 60 was discriminatory, they would have been fighting for all their fellow pilots that were being "forced" out the door.

[Rockie]

That is exactly true, but consider this:

When they were 30 mandatory retirement was normal in this country. Even if it wasn't, like all the people vilifying them for being greedy they probably didn't think far enough in the future to think they might not want to retire. In that they were just like everybody else here.

There is also palpable hostility in this pilot group toward anybody supporting the end to mandatory retirement. If you are an Air Canada pilot you know this. Hell, just reading this forum you can tell, and this is nothing compared to the ACPA forum where the moderators are participating in the character assassinations, not preventing it. That is a serious deterrent to challenging the status quo.

[barefootpilot]

It is crazy that anyone can say they need to stay for the money, most of the guys are at the top of the food chain as it is. You have to be pretty stupid to have not been financially preparing yourself for retirement fully knowing it was coming at age 60 from the moment you started at AC. Even if you were to lose everything on that day you turned 60, your pension check of 10-14k a month would give a very large house, new car, boat and pretty much what ever you wanted.

For the other guys that need to keep flying just for the flying, I feel sorry for you. My passion and love of flying is more than anything but come on get a hobby and a life, there is so much more to life than work. Or maybe it is so that you have somewhere to go for your afternoon nap on the way to Hong Kong or wherever you go. I bet if you were put at the bottom of the list and having to do rapid air or on 320/emj reserve all day your tune would change.

Work to live, don't live to work

[Rockie]

You have to be pretty stupid to have not been financially preparing yourself for retirement fully knowing it was coming at age 60 from the moment you started at AC.

Or had a sick family member, or had a Bernie Madoff in your life, or had a marriage break down, or...or...or...

Even if you were to lose everything on that day you turned 60, your pension check of 10-14k a month would give a very large house, new car, boat and pretty much what ever you wanted.

What makes you think everybody is getting that much? What makes you think it's disposable and not committed to one of the items suggested above?

Work to live, don't live to work

You're handle is appropriate. I'd love to show you these words in 20 years and see if they still apply to you. My brother-in-law was such an idealist as well, far worse than you, until he had a family and had to support them. Cold hard reality sets in.

[ivanhoe]

Work to live, don't live to work

You're handle is appropriate. I'd love to show you these words in 20 years and see if they still apply to you. My brother-in-law was such an idealist as well, far worse than you, until he had a family and had to support them. Cold hard reality sets in.[/quote]

True words. I think back on some of my idealistic and self rightous opinions of the past that have come back to bite me in the ass when real life got in the way. I'd guess that the most vocal of the anti 60+ group are 45 or younger and just don't know any better...yet.

[circlingfor69]

Rockie,

What kind of response did you expect to come from other ACPA members? You are doing real damage to peoples lives here. The fact that you just dont give a sh#t about that is the most frustrating part....for me at least.

[hypoxic]

AC pilots pay per age group!

20-30 $60000
30-40 $95000
40-50 $125000
50-60 $185000

p.s. these are rough estimates.

Looks like the younger you are the more discriminated against you are.

Also if you look at holiday awards the same would be true!

[yycflyguy]

Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons and that doesn't make them a bad person. How old is Warren Buffet? It's not like he needs the money is it?


Rockie

Right on! This illustrates how I feel. Why would'nt I want to keep doing something I enjoy as long as I can?

I'm thankful that the WestJet pilot's saw this as a good thing and fought to allow 60+ to continue to fly. We have several and they continue to be an asset to our company. I don't plan to fly a full schedule at 60+ , but a few parings a month will keep me happy and productive until I (emphasis on "I") decide I've had enough.

Because at Westjet there isn't a CBA based on a seniority system with multiple type aircraft and multiple pay grades. After your Captain upgrade there is no carrot to continue your career progression. Westjet also doesn't have a DB pension plan that is predicated on your best 5 years at the company, which in turn is completely reliant on your continued career progression.

It really is a big deal to the junior pilots and possible stagnation in natural progression that those before have enjoyed.

c170b53 - unfortunately you are right on... one of the reasons that the pilots are attempting a College start up to mitigate the deep stall we are in.

[ivanhoe]

Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons and that doesn't make them a bad person. How old is Warren Buffet? It's not like he needs the money is it?


Rockie

Right on! This illustrates how I feel. Why would'nt I want to keep doing something I enjoy as long as I can?

I'm thankful that the WestJet pilot's saw this as a good thing and fought to allow 60+ to continue to fly. We have several and they continue to be an asset to our company. I don't plan to fly a full schedule at 60+ , but a few parings a month will keep me happy and productive until I (emphasis on "I") decide I've had enough.

Because at Westjet there isn't a CBA based on a seniority system with multiple type aircraft and multiple pay grades. After your Captain upgrade there is no carrot to continue your career progression. Westjet also doesn't have a DB pension plan that is predicated on your best 5 years at the company, which in turn is completely reliant on your continued career progression.

It really is a big deal to the junior pilots and possible stagnation in natural progression that those before have enjoyed.

c170b53 - unfortunately you are right on... one of the reasons that the pilots are attempting a College start up to mitigate the deep stall we are in.

We can argue the differences between AC and WJ until we're both blue in the face.

When you distill it all , it is about junior guys moving up the ladder resulting in all the benifits that come with that movement.

AC pilots do not want to delay that move up the ladder to allow 60+ to continue to fly.
WestJet pilots decided to take that hit to benefit the group as a whole. Granted , that hit may be less severe at WJ than at AC but I'm glad that the spirit of the decision was there.

[barefootpilot]

[
[/quote="rockie"]Or had a sick family member, or had a Bernie Madoff in your life, or had a marriage break down, or...or...or...

Or had guys pushing for 65 and changing my career progression, keeping me in a lower pay scale and being stuck in the pay group longer



[/quote]What makes you think everybody is getting that much? What makes you think it's disposable and not committed to one of the items suggested above?

Everyone I know or have talk to that is retired or very close are in that range. The Pension calculator gives you a good idea aswell. The guys hired later in there careers will of course not be able to achieve this. But as I mentioned before all pilots have know that they must retire at 60 and are responsible for there own financial planning for when that time comes. Pilots make a lot more than other people with different careers and yet the majority can plan things out without having a worry free pension.

You're handle is appropriate. I'd love to show you these words in 20 years and see if they still apply to you. My brother-in-law was such an idealist as well, far worse than you, until he had a family and had to support them. Cold hard reality sets in.[/quote]

Life does step in and throws you a wrench at times in which you have to deal with. This is currently my wrench, I do have a family and people to support, and that should you cause you to fight harder for whatever reason. Being newer here and having many more years to go, I am in that group that will be most effected. So of course we must fight it for it will effect the next 30 years.

[Rockie]

But as I mentioned before all pilots have know that they must retire at 60 and are responsible for there own financial planning for when that time comes.

Not true. Mandatory retirement is dead in this country. Air Canada is part of this country and must comply as well.

Being newer here and having many more years to go, I am in that group that will be most effected.

You will have the option of working past 60 and your pension will be more because of it. Nobody is denying you anything but rather giving you the choice. This whole thing is about not denying someone something simply because they had a birthday. That used to be normal, now it's discrimination. You can't blame the flypast60 people for that.

In fact why would you blame anybody for that? This benefits you too, you just don't see it yet.

[Rockie]

Rockie,

What kind of response did you expect to come from other ACPA members? You are doing real damage to peoples lives here. The fact that you just dont give a sh#t about that is the most frustrating part....for me at least.

First of all it's not me doing it. Canadian society decided sometime ago that mandatory retirement is a form of age discrimination. I do however agree with it. Do you support age discrimination? How about racial, religious or sex discrimination?

Air Canada pilots are the most resistant to change dinosaurs still walking the face of the planet. In a few years this will mean nothing and all you young bucks are going to wake up to the fact that you can still retire with the same (or better) seniority number than you would have otherwise had, and your pension will be better. I hope you remember then all the things you are saying now.

[the original tony]

Sorry, Last post as I am tired of listeneing to bullshit.
At the end of the day these greedy bastards are going to enjoy life as it was and forever will be.
Layoffs will happen as these asses are brought back into the system.
All sleep well knowing this, oh, and your pension will be much much better than you expected.
The only problem is you may not get it depending on how long the layoff is, and how much it costs to buy it back.
That is if it's still around. Like retirement, DB pensions around the world let alone Canada are going away as well.
So by the time you retire, if you are able to, it may be fruitless. Any research into how many DB pensions have collapsed other companies? NO?? Guess not, it's not the main drive of your fight. Look it up, most are drastically reduced or gone.
So all this talk to preserving a pension for these guys disgusts me.
The rest of you 60 plus guys can go F off.
Here's hoping that all involved take something drastic to their lives and suffer as they want the rest to.
All this in the guise of rights.

Im done

[Rockie]

Slow down and think about this last post for a second.

Layoffs will happen as these asses are brought back into the system.

Says who? More fearmongering.

All sleep well knowing this, oh, and your pension will be much much better than you expected. The only problem is you may not get it depending on how long the layoff is, and how much it costs to buy it back.

More unsubstantiated, sensationalist doom and gloom about layoff.

Like retirement, DB pensions around the world let alone Canada are going away as well. So by the time you retire, if you are able to, it may be fruitless.

You're making a great case for eliminating mandatory retirement Tony. Even ACPA's own research shows delaying retirement will strengthen the pension (they didn't publish that though did they?). And if as Tony predicts our DB pension disappears despite that, then I guess we'll all be very happy we aren't kicked to the street when we turn 60.

So all this talk to preserving a pension for these guys disgusts me.

Nobody said this is to preserve the pension, this is to stop a discriminatory practice. Easing pressure on our pension is just a side benefit.

The rest of you 60 plus guys can go F off.
Here's hoping that all involved take something drastic to their lives and suffer as they want the rest to.

Classy.

Does anybody have a rational, well thought out argument as to why Air Canada should ignore both Canadian values and Canadian law and keep mandatory retirement despite it being age discrimination?

[ywger]

Rockie: I am in awe of your ability to cook up a fresh batch of BS, garnish it with a false sense of principle, and serve as gourmet 'righteousness'. I don't care if you call it a prairie oyster, it's still a bull's testicle - catch my drift?

You are in serious denial if you think that this initiative is just in any way. As I've said before, irrespective of what the law says, the SPIRIT of fly past 60 is ROTTEN, and there is NO amount of eloquent pro-flypast60 propaganda capable of changing that fact. What's even more insulting is how you so arrogantly imply that society is on your side, thus vilifying the vast majority of AC pilots who simply wish to align their respective career expectations with those who have come before them.

All of you should get your heads out of your @ss ASAP... we have bigger fish to fry as an association. The big joke about AC pilots is that we spend more time in court than we do in our flight decks - it's embarrassing. The flypast60 crowd should be ASHAMED for forcing us to devote so many resources to fighting this ridiculous initiative. But rest assured, we will fight it.

PS. Spare me the schpeel on 'expectations'. I'll hurl on my keyboard if I read that one more time.

[sepia]

Rockie: I am in awe of your ability to cook up a fresh batch of BS, garnish it with a false sense of principle, and serve as gourmet 'righteousness'. I don't care if you call it a prairie oyster, it's still a bull's testicle - catch my drift?

You are in serious denial if you think that this initiative is just in any way. As I've said before, irrespective of what the law says, the SPIRIT of fly past 60 is ROTTEN, and there is NO amount of eloquent pro-flypast60 propaganda capable of changing that fact. What's even more insulting is how you so arrogantly imply that society is on your side, thus vilifying the vast majority of AC pilots who simply wish to align their respective career expectations with those who have come before them.

All of you should get your heads out of your @ss ASAP... we have bigger fish to fry as an association. The big joke about AC pilots is that we spend more time in court than we do in our flight decks - it's embarrassing. The flypast60 crowd should be ASHAMED for forcing us to devote so many resources to fighting this ridiculous initiative. But rest assured, we will fight it.

PS. Spare me the schpeel on 'expectations'. I'll hurl on my keyboard if I read that one more time.

Best post in the thread.

[jazzpilot666]

Rockie,

If you need to work for your own well being or whatever you call it, why not go get a job as a navajo skipper or something...then you'd actually have to WORK. You're not fooling anybody...it's all about your greed. It's not the younger guys fault if you can't make ends meet after retiring from AC at 60. If ya need to work for physical reasons...go get a job...you knew the deal when you signed up...so did all the pilots behind you. Just my opinion. Sounds like a real mess. I'm glad its not only my company with problems.

[Rockie]

Rockie: I am in awe of your ability to cook up a fresh batch of BS, garnish it with a false sense of principle, and serve as gourmet 'righteousness'. I don't care if you call it a prairie oyster, it's still a bull's testicle - catch my drift?

You are in serious denial if you think that this initiative is just in any way. As I've said before, irrespective of what the law says, the SPIRIT of fly past 60 is ROTTEN, and there is NO amount of eloquent pro-flypast60 propaganda capable of changing that fact. What's even more insulting is how you so arrogantly imply that society is on your side, thus vilifying the vast majority of AC pilots who simply wish to align their respective career expectations with those who have come before them.

All of you should get your heads out of your @ss ASAP... we have bigger fish to fry as an association. The big joke about AC pilots is that we spend more time in court than we do in our flight decks - it's embarrassing. The flypast60 crowd should be ASHAMED for forcing us to devote so many resources to fighting this ridiculous initiative. But rest assured, we will fight it.

PS. Spare me the schpeel on 'expectations'. I'll hurl on my keyboard if I read that one more time.

Best post in the thread.

See my response in the other thread. Here's an exerpt addressing wpger's belief that Canadian society isn't in favour of eliminating mandatory retirement:

British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut all have legislation eliminating mandatory retirement. The only jurisdiction that doesn't yet is Canada itself, but that legislation is working its way through parliament as we speak. Only a moron would think it isn't going to happen federally as well.

Does that sound like Canadian society is not interested in eliminating mandatory retirement?

Rockie,

If you need to work for your own well being or whatever you call it, why not go get a job as a navajo skipper or something...then you'd actually have to WORK. You're not fooling anybody...it's all about your greed. It's not the younger guys fault if you can't make ends meet after retiring from AC at 60. If ya need to work for physical reasons...go get a job...you knew the deal when you signed up...so did all the pilots behind you. Just my opinion. Sounds like a real mess. I'm glad its not only my company with problems.

You guys are hellbent on ignoring reality. It isn't me doing this however much I support it. It is happening. You can't do anything about it. ACPA can't do anything about it. And ironically enough the guys who went to the CHRT can't do anything about it except add another element to it, but it's happening whether they went to the Tribunal or not.

So continue to blame them and stick your heads up your ass if you must. Me? I would rather the union do something about setting the structure for implementation than wasting my union dues on a useless fight they will not win.

[rudder]

http://www.financialpost.com/news-secto ... id=2527702

[Phileas Fogg]

Fly past 60 ruling is OK, but it should only apply to new hires NOW because the rest signed on knowing the 60 rule.

Do something for the new generation...

Move on you old farts.






(true story)