Back when the Air Force had a sense of humour and was fun.Hedley wrote:Correct - it was. Over mach 1.5, actually.The 104 would have to have been going twice as fast
PS Buddy White was a friend of my father's. I ran across his
son here in Ottawa about 15 years ago. Small world!
Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
This aircraft that crahsed was cleared to no higher than 34500',, so lets assume he was not higher than that.... I dont have a C550 manual in front of me, but Im speculating the "coffin corner" was much more than 5 knots.......Exactly. Even the +2g's during entry, as Hedley points out, would be enough to cause a 'jet upset' at 30000 plus feet
This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training..... A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....
This is along the same lines as the "guys" that ran off the end of a 10k runway in a Dash ## being defended.......
As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....
Looks to me like this guy is not at sea level,, and he seems ok.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMRCv669Vk
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Waving a great big bullshit flag here.Strega wrote:A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:07 pm
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
I have no idea what the 550's coffin corner would look like at 34000, but rolling one whether you are trained in aerobatics or not just doesn't seem like the thing to do. Even if you did it perfectly, do you not think that you'd get canned if your boss new about it?
I would word it a little differently: "If you can't be trained to do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldn't be flying." That way some kid reading this stuff will think twice before he goes out without instruction and tries to live up to such comments
....lack of training perhaps, but don't forget about 'too much stupidity.' Who trains these things in a civil jet anyway?This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training.....
As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....
I would word it a little differently: "If you can't be trained to do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldn't be flying." That way some kid reading this stuff will think twice before he goes out without instruction and tries to live up to such comments

-
- Top Poster
- Posts: 8133
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
- Location: Winterfell...
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
At that altitude any load above 1G slams the lid on the coffin and you stall. Hence my great big bullshit flag.iflyforpie wrote:What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
If Strega had actually done what he says he did, he would alternate between overspeed and full stall for several thousand feet before gaining control of the airplane. Long before that he would have lost control of his bowels.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:07 pm
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Same as increased aircraft weight. For a given weight and altitude the aircraft will have specific speeds at which it will experience a low speed stall and a high speed stall. In between these speeds you are safe, but the higher you climb a given weight the gap between these speeds narrows. Now if you throw in some G force, meaning that the aircraft "feels" a heavier weight, the same thing happens. Most transport jets fly with an altitude/weight combo that provides for about 1.4 G protection. Now with the higher wing loading due to G force, the resultant increase in the 'low speed buffet' speed is probably your biggest problem as this is the speed you'll probably hit as you further increase G force, and when you recover by increasing power you'll probably accelerate right into your high speed buffet because it will only be a few knots above your low speed buffet. If you pull even more G's the low speed and high speed buffet become one and the same! That's what Rockie means by slamming the coffin shut! Now you are out of control.iflyforpie wrote:What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
I'm no engineer and like to keep it simple, so I'm sorry if this is too simplistic an explanation.
-
- Top Poster
- Posts: 8133
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
- Location: Winterfell...
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
The question was rhetorical, but I'm glad what you jet jocks wrote confirmed and added to my small knowledge of the subject...
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Small addendum to this. At altitude there is very little excess power, so increasing it won't do any good. Your only option is to lower the nose. Lowering the nose increases airspeed very quickly, and when you pull back to keep from overspeeding you add a load to the airplane causing an accelerated stall again. Repeat over and over.'79K20driver wrote:and when you recover by increasing power you'll probably accelerate right into your high speed buffet because it will only be a few knots above your low speed buffet.
There is very little air up there, so any kind of G loading is tweaking the nose of the lift gods. Even a super star would take many thousands of feet to recover from the inevitable stall resulting from foolishly trying a roll at that altitude, and then only if he didn't tear the wings off.
Bottom line, if there's no "F" in the name of the airplane (as in "F15, F18 etc"), then you're committing suicide.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
At that altitude any load above 1G slams the lid on the coffin and you stall. Hence my great big bullshit flag.
How do you turn then?
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Rockie,,,
explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?
or is that CGI....
explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?
or is that CGI....
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
A 30 degree bank turn is excessive at altitude, and very close to the maneuvering limit of the airplane. Maintaining a level 30 degree bank turn puts about 1.2 G on the aircraft. Basically nothing.Strega wrote:How do you turn then?
I couldn't see the video because I'm not logged into youtube. I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though. Certainly you weren't when you rolled your ficticious C550.Strega wrote:explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Watch the video....I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
The Challenger (for example) has automatic 1/2 bank applied as you climb through FL316 to limit loading (granted the 605 is not a great high-altitude jet, but probably no worse than a Citation). The stall recovery procedure for a 605 at altitude (FL350, for example) is max thrust, lower the nose to 5 degrees below the horizon and do not attempt to regain level flight until you attain M.72. You can anticipate losing 4000 feet as you recover. The airspeed does NOT increase rapidly unless you point significantly more 'down.' Remember you have only about 15% of the thrust available that you have down low.....
These guys were morons, were attempting a maneuvre that violated numerous limitations and were doing it in someone else' jet. Had they survived, they should have been shot and p*ssed on. Anybody out there who thinks its OK to attempt to roll a transport category aircraft should immediately tear up their license, even if you have been trained in aerobatics.
Unbelievably idiotic.
These guys were morons, were attempting a maneuvre that violated numerous limitations and were doing it in someone else' jet. Had they survived, they should have been shot and p*ssed on. Anybody out there who thinks its OK to attempt to roll a transport category aircraft should immediately tear up their license, even if you have been trained in aerobatics.
Unbelievably idiotic.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
The citation in your most recent link looks to be around 10,000 feet. Certainly no more than 15. There is no way to tell how high the lear is, but it won't be at high altitude for the reasons already stated.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
30 may be xcessive in some aircraft-not in most light jets. And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...Rockie wrote:A 30 degree bank turn is excessive at altitude, and very close to the maneuvering limit of the airplane. Maintaining a level 30 degree bank turn puts about 1.2 G on the aircraft. Basically nothing.Strega wrote:How do you turn then?
I couldn't see the video because I'm not logged into youtube. I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though. Certainly you weren't when you rolled your ficticious C550.Strega wrote:explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?

- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind.And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Ya know.........it doesn't matter how many times and what types of airplanes one has rolled where - but I never roll anything AT NIGHT!
A citation may roll just fine - but attempting to roll anything in the dark is just mind numbingly stupid.
A citation may roll just fine - but attempting to roll anything in the dark is just mind numbingly stupid.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
I was sitting in the right seat of a Dornier 228 on a demo over in Bavaria and the factory guy did a beautiful barrel role in it. Didn't buy it though.
- Panama Jack
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
- Location: Back here
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
-President Ronald Reagan
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2493
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
- Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Panama Jack wrote:
"Barolo" rolls from Piedmonte.......... now you are talking


-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2493
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
- Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Cat Driver wrote:When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind.And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...
Pardon this old fool who isn't military nor airline trained but I thought you didn't do things intentionally to airplanes that they are not certified to do............
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
Don't think either one of us disagree with you.Old fella wrote:Cat Driver wrote:When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind.And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...
Pardon this old fool who isn't military nor airline trained but I thought you didn't do things intentionally to airplanes that they are not certified to do............
Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .
There is a big difference between rolling an aircraft near sea level and rolling one near the top of its envelope. When Tex Johnson rolled the 707, he was only a few thousand (3000?) feet over Lake Washington. Rolling a Citation at near 30,000 feet when its stall speed would not have been too far away from its Mmo, that's a completely different story. Even if they kept the G's positive (near +1), it means they were pointed down at some point and hence accelerating to Mmo. I hate to say it, those guys earned what happened to them. It reminds me of the link someone posted awhile back about the Hawker 800 that was rolled on the way to the US from Mexico. Seeing the pics, they are damned lucky it didn't break up in the air.
If you want to fly aerobatics, get some training and get in an aerobatic aircraft. That sort of thing has no place in any business aircraft, airliner or GA aircraft. Yes they can do the maneuvers but at a much reduced safety margin. Even forgetting about the airframe (which I wouldn't) someone else has to depend on those avionics.
Re-reading the whole post, sorry for repeating what Rockie and 79K20 driver were going on about. And Strega, I'm going to double up on what was said. You + C550 barrel roll + FL340 = BS
If you want to fly aerobatics, get some training and get in an aerobatic aircraft. That sort of thing has no place in any business aircraft, airliner or GA aircraft. Yes they can do the maneuvers but at a much reduced safety margin. Even forgetting about the airframe (which I wouldn't) someone else has to depend on those avionics.
Re-reading the whole post, sorry for repeating what Rockie and 79K20 driver were going on about. And Strega, I'm going to double up on what was said. You + C550 barrel roll + FL340 = BS
Last edited by Youngback on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.