Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

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Rockie
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Hedley wrote:
The 104 would have to have been going twice as fast
Correct - it was. Over mach 1.5, actually.

PS Buddy White was a friend of my father's. I ran across his
son here in Ottawa about 15 years ago. Small world!
Back when the Air Force had a sense of humour and was fun.
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Strega
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

Exactly. Even the +2g's during entry, as Hedley points out, would be enough to cause a 'jet upset' at 30000 plus feet
This aircraft that crahsed was cleared to no higher than 34500',, so lets assume he was not higher than that.... I dont have a C550 manual in front of me, but Im speculating the "coffin corner" was much more than 5 knots.......

This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training..... A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....


This is along the same lines as the "guys" that ran off the end of a 10k runway in a Dash ## being defended.......

As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....

Looks to me like this guy is not at sea level,, and he seems ok.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMRCv669Vk
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Rockie
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Strega wrote:A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....
Waving a great big bullshit flag here.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by '79K20driver »

I have no idea what the 550's coffin corner would look like at 34000, but rolling one whether you are trained in aerobatics or not just doesn't seem like the thing to do. Even if you did it perfectly, do you not think that you'd get canned if your boss new about it?
This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training.....
....lack of training perhaps, but don't forget about 'too much stupidity.' Who trains these things in a civil jet anyway?
As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....

I would word it a little differently: "If you can't be trained to do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldn't be flying." That way some kid reading this stuff will think twice before he goes out without instruction and tries to live up to such comments :wink:
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by iflyforpie »

What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Rockie
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

iflyforpie wrote:What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
At that altitude any load above 1G slams the lid on the coffin and you stall. Hence my great big bullshit flag.

If Strega had actually done what he says he did, he would alternate between overspeed and full stall for several thousand feet before gaining control of the airplane. Long before that he would have lost control of his bowels.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by '79K20driver »

iflyforpie wrote:What is the effect of increased G (ie entry or accelerated pull out from the roll) on the altitude of coffin corner?
Same as increased aircraft weight. For a given weight and altitude the aircraft will have specific speeds at which it will experience a low speed stall and a high speed stall. In between these speeds you are safe, but the higher you climb a given weight the gap between these speeds narrows. Now if you throw in some G force, meaning that the aircraft "feels" a heavier weight, the same thing happens. Most transport jets fly with an altitude/weight combo that provides for about 1.4 G protection. Now with the higher wing loading due to G force, the resultant increase in the 'low speed buffet' speed is probably your biggest problem as this is the speed you'll probably hit as you further increase G force, and when you recover by increasing power you'll probably accelerate right into your high speed buffet because it will only be a few knots above your low speed buffet. If you pull even more G's the low speed and high speed buffet become one and the same! That's what Rockie means by slamming the coffin shut! Now you are out of control.
I'm no engineer and like to keep it simple, so I'm sorry if this is too simplistic an explanation.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by iflyforpie »

The question was rhetorical, but I'm glad what you jet jocks wrote confirmed and added to my small knowledge of the subject...
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Rockie
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

'79K20driver wrote:and when you recover by increasing power you'll probably accelerate right into your high speed buffet because it will only be a few knots above your low speed buffet.
Small addendum to this. At altitude there is very little excess power, so increasing it won't do any good. Your only option is to lower the nose. Lowering the nose increases airspeed very quickly, and when you pull back to keep from overspeeding you add a load to the airplane causing an accelerated stall again. Repeat over and over.

There is very little air up there, so any kind of G loading is tweaking the nose of the lift gods. Even a super star would take many thousands of feet to recover from the inevitable stall resulting from foolishly trying a roll at that altitude, and then only if he didn't tear the wings off.

Bottom line, if there's no "F" in the name of the airplane (as in "F15, F18 etc"), then you're committing suicide.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

At that altitude any load above 1G slams the lid on the coffin and you stall. Hence my great big bullshit flag.

How do you turn then?
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

Rockie,,,

explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?

or is that CGI....
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Strega wrote:How do you turn then?
A 30 degree bank turn is excessive at altitude, and very close to the maneuvering limit of the airplane. Maintaining a level 30 degree bank turn puts about 1.2 G on the aircraft. Basically nothing.
Strega wrote:explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?
I couldn't see the video because I'm not logged into youtube. I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though. Certainly you weren't when you rolled your ficticious C550.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though
Watch the video....
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by xsbank »

The Challenger (for example) has automatic 1/2 bank applied as you climb through FL316 to limit loading (granted the 605 is not a great high-altitude jet, but probably no worse than a Citation). The stall recovery procedure for a 605 at altitude (FL350, for example) is max thrust, lower the nose to 5 degrees below the horizon and do not attempt to regain level flight until you attain M.72. You can anticipate losing 4000 feet as you recover. The airspeed does NOT increase rapidly unless you point significantly more 'down.' Remember you have only about 15% of the thrust available that you have down low.....

These guys were morons, were attempting a maneuvre that violated numerous limitations and were doing it in someone else' jet. Had they survived, they should have been shot and p*ssed on. Anybody out there who thinks its OK to attempt to roll a transport category aircraft should immediately tear up their license, even if you have been trained in aerobatics.

Unbelievably idiotic.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

The citation in your most recent link looks to be around 10,000 feet. Certainly no more than 15. There is no way to tell how high the lear is, but it won't be at high altitude for the reasons already stated.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by fanspeed »

Rockie wrote:
Strega wrote:How do you turn then?
A 30 degree bank turn is excessive at altitude, and very close to the maneuvering limit of the airplane. Maintaining a level 30 degree bank turn puts about 1.2 G on the aircraft. Basically nothing.
Strega wrote:explain to me the guys in the lear in my youtube vid?
I couldn't see the video because I'm not logged into youtube. I guarantee you they were not at high altitude though. Certainly you weren't when you rolled your ficticious C550.
30 may be xcessive in some aircraft-not in most light jets. And besides, the Citations aren't real jets... :D
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Cat Driver »

And besides, the Citations aren't real jets... :D
When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind. :mrgreen:
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by boeingboy »

Ya know.........it doesn't matter how many times and what types of airplanes one has rolled where - but I never roll anything AT NIGHT!

A citation may roll just fine - but attempting to roll anything in the dark is just mind numbingly stupid.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Ogee »

I was sitting in the right seat of a Dornier 228 on a demo over in Bavaria and the factory guy did a beautiful barrel role in it. Didn't buy it though.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Panama Jack »

Image
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Old fella »

Panama Jack wrote:Image

"Barolo" rolls from Piedmonte.......... now you are talking

:smt040 :mrgreen:
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Old fella »

Cat Driver wrote:
And besides, the Citations aren't real jets... :D
When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind. :mrgreen:

Pardon this old fool who isn't military nor airline trained but I thought you didn't do things intentionally to airplanes that they are not certified to do............
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by fanspeed »

Old fella wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:
And besides, the Citations aren't real jets... :D
When they were first certified I think they were described as the only jets to get bird strikes from behind. :mrgreen:

Pardon this old fool who isn't military nor airline trained but I thought you didn't do things intentionally to airplanes that they are not certified to do............
Don't think either one of us disagree with you.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Youngback »

There is a big difference between rolling an aircraft near sea level and rolling one near the top of its envelope. When Tex Johnson rolled the 707, he was only a few thousand (3000?) feet over Lake Washington. Rolling a Citation at near 30,000 feet when its stall speed would not have been too far away from its Mmo, that's a completely different story. Even if they kept the G's positive (near +1), it means they were pointed down at some point and hence accelerating to Mmo. I hate to say it, those guys earned what happened to them. It reminds me of the link someone posted awhile back about the Hawker 800 that was rolled on the way to the US from Mexico. Seeing the pics, they are damned lucky it didn't break up in the air.

If you want to fly aerobatics, get some training and get in an aerobatic aircraft. That sort of thing has no place in any business aircraft, airliner or GA aircraft. Yes they can do the maneuvers but at a much reduced safety margin. Even forgetting about the airframe (which I wouldn't) someone else has to depend on those avionics.

Re-reading the whole post, sorry for repeating what Rockie and 79K20 driver were going on about. And Strega, I'm going to double up on what was said. You + C550 barrel roll + FL340 = BS
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Last edited by Youngback on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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