Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?

[100'ToGo]

How many of you toast the flight director on your "hand flying?"

Heroes.

Uhh... I thought the goal was to get the plane A to B safely? You say it as if it were cheating using a flight director.
Is it not a pilots job to use all available resources to make it the safest flight possible?
I'm not saying they shouldn't know how to. But, do you really want the pilots in the front of your plane trying to make it more difficult? Save the challenging for the simulator.

[yycflyguy]

OK, so I have been accused of being rude to airline pilots - attacking me means nothing to me so fill your boots. You must be very sensitive so I promise to try and be more thoughtful next time.

The question was, do "large airline pilots" have good stick and rudder skills? I still think the answer is largely no. You have a side stick that is totally controlled by a bunch of computers. You have yaw dampers that are engaged as soon as you energize the IRSs. Yes, you might push a little on a rudder on a crosswind landing and yes, perhaps a bit of tiller and some rudder on a crosswind departure, but I would suggest that any Beaver pilot, sailplane pilot or Cub Captain could fly the bag off any driver who only flies a 'Bus. I have seen it in corporate on big ones and small ones and unless you also own a Nanchang my bet's are on the float pilot. You do not fly attitude or airspeed, you fly a flight director.

How many of you toast the flight director on your "hand flying?" I know the JAA requires a hand-flown raw data ILS for a type rating, done in the sim. My money is on the flight director. But why not, after all? Why do you think they have all that 'magic?' Must be a reason - wonder what that is? The skills that a "large pilot" uses are different than those used by a Beaver pilot and why not?

I still see guys, while practicing stall recoveries in the sim, try and hold the nose up when they pooch it and get pusher. Completing the exercise to standards is more important than flying the aircraft. I think that IN GENERAL, stick and rudder skills in complex airplane pilots are a dying art.

Heroes.

Um, Beaver pilots, sailplane pilots, Cub pilots and Float pilots grow up to be Airline pilots one day. Not all of 'em, but those who want to, do. Yup, we all started there. I guess the fact we could do it on those planes wont impress you. How were the stick and rudder skills of the poor chap in the CYKZ accident?

FYI- If you used the tiller on a x-wind landing on the Bus or Embraer, you would end up in the weeds with a probable emergency evacuation for that, pretty major, mistake.

FYI - that side stick HAS NO STICK SHAKER

FYI - I told you before, I fly up to 10,000 and down from FAF or earlier. I knock off the FD and Autothrottles. Again, I only do it when it is appropriate.

Perhaps those messing up in front of you in the sim are just a reflection of the training?

I am in sim this month, I openly invite you to come and join us. Just let me know in advance so I can ok it with both my partner and the checker so you can evaluate stick and rudder skills.

... but I am glad I was able to teach you how to spell HEROES correctly, maybe there is hope for ya!

[AEROBAT]

I personaly know a couple of AC pilots....make that three AC jet jockeys who have excellent stick and rudder skills. One routinely cuts ribbons while flying inverted about 6' off the runway. A person should avoid generalized statements.

[c170b53]

Ah the jungle jet, like the Brazilian PUMA; looks good but with a peek under the hood, you're dismayed to find out that's its just another Volkswagen. Then again who would thought to make an aircraft emergency brake/park brake lever look and work like a car park brake lever. Expect their next aircraft to mirror the evolution of the Corolla, from rust-o-matic tin can to Taxi cab staple.

[xsbank]

A person might have stick and rudder skills but that person's reading comprehension sucks.

FYI - interesting info on the tiller on a 'Bus - where did I suggest that you use it on landing?

OK, so the 'sensitives' think the answer (what was the question?) is no. So why are the regulators fussing so much about it? Partly because a lot of large pilots go straight into the right seat from flying school where they have only ever flown tricycle aircraft. Not so much in Canada but certainly everywhere else and the airlines have pressed for it here, too.

I also put to you that doing a hand-flown departure, following the flight director to 10,000 feet, can be done by any average 10-year old who has owned a Nintendo (or whatever they play with nowadays). I put my (then) 10 year old daughter in the sim and she flew a perfect hand-flown ILS on her first try (with some verbal input from her Dad. She sucked at taxiing, though, and she had to have the seat up pretty high!

[Mustard]

We've obviously all flown the little planes and it's not that difficult. Some of us were actually fairly good at it and
were hired by the airlines. While some weren't so great and remain stuck on the small planes.
Now they are so bitter and jealous they sit around and accuse us of not being able to fly as well as
some dumb dumb flying around in a 172.
Oh ya, the tiller isn't used for a xwind take off either....idiot.

[xsbank]

If I am to be the idiot, tell us all, Mr. Perfect, why the FAA and the CAA are fussed about airline pilot's "stick and rudder" skills? Why are they all investigating the introduction of advanced simulators in order to give airline pilots better training?

Answer that one, oh Hero of The Sky.

I guess they are all closet shareholders in CAE?

By the way, you have absolutely no idea what I do or what I fly and your personal attack was amateurish and inept.

Xsbank is off to work -TTFN.

[Mustard]

Actually no offense. I just wanted to jump in on the name calling. I'm accused of not being able to hand fly
an airplane just because I don't fly a little one anymore.
I bet an airbus pilot could fly a beaver from point A to point B before a beaver pilot could fly an airbus
from point A to Point B.

[yycflyguy]

A person might have stick and rudder skills but that person's reading comprehension sucks.

OK, so the 'sensitives' think the answer (what was the question?) is no. So why are the regulators fussing so much about it? Partly because a lot of large pilots go straight into the right seat from flying school where they have only ever flown tricycle aircraft. Not so much in Canada but certainly everywhere else and the airlines have pressed for it here, too.

I suggest that you need to re-read how you illustrated airline pilots in your original post and then come back and tell me if is is reading comprehrension that is lacking or that you are back peddling over what you posted. The follow are excerpts of your views and then later posts by you again.

Your original post:

Yes, you might push a little on a rudder on a crosswind landing and yes, perhaps a bit of tiller and some rudder on a crosswind departure

Your subsequent post:

FYI - interesting info on the tiller on a 'Bus - where did I suggest that you use it on landing?

FYI - Tiller is NEVER used on landing or departure

Your original post:

When, in the normal course of an Airbus flight, all you do is hold it straight on the runway, rotate, engage the autopilot and then spend the rest of the flight messing with the FMS; the landing is auto, the rollout can be on autobrakes... so when exactly are these Heros of The Sky supposed to practise hand-flying?

Your subsequent post:

I also put to you that doing a hand-flown departure, following the flight director to 10,000 feet, can be done by any average 10-year old who has owned a Nintendo (or whatever they play with nowadays).

I think your expertise in this area is not what you think it is.

My invitation to sit in my sim this month is still open. Day 1 is the fun stuff, max x-wind, V1 cuts, engine fires, min vis t/o, cat III landings, low energy go-arounds, single engine approaches, NPAs, ILS to a missed approach, GPWS CFIT recovery, Jet Upset recovery (this one is a direct result of AC190), APU fire, loss of PFD and various other faults.

[Doc]

My invitation to sit in my sim this month is still open. Day 1 is the fun stuff, max x-wind, V1 cuts, engine fires, min vis t/o, cat III landings, low energy go-arounds, single engine approaches, NPAs, ILS to a missed approach, GPWS CFIT recovery, Jet Upset recovery (this one is a direct result of AC190), APU fire, loss of PFD and various other faults.

I would bloody love to take you up on that offer. However, since we live in a post 9/11 world, you'd have to teach me to land it. They frown on just take off and cruise training. I'd just like to hand fly the thing around for an hour or so. Maybe a hand flown ILS with an overshoot. In my dreams, right?
I think (love to the see the end of the "mine's bigger than yours" bullshit) most of us could fly the other guy's airplane, given the training.

[yycflyguy]

My invitation to sit in my sim this month is still open. Day 1 is the fun stuff, max x-wind, V1 cuts, engine fires, min vis t/o, cat III landings, low energy go-arounds, single engine approaches, NPAs, ILS to a missed approach, GPWS CFIT recovery, Jet Upset recovery (this one is a direct result of AC190), APU fire, loss of PFD and various other faults.

I would bloody love to take you up on that offer. However, since we live in a post 9/11 world, you'd have to teach me to land it. They frown on just take off and cruise training. I'd just like to hand fly the thing around for an hour or so. Maybe a hand flown ILS with an overshoot. In my dreams, right?
I think (love to the see the end of the "mine's bigger than yours" bullshit) most of us could fly the other guy's airplane, given the training.

You gotta red pass? You live in YYZ? I could try to arrange something to get you in. Probably have to be the late night stuff as it is pretty busy other times. I get you in, you crash it a couple of times and then buy me beer... hmmm, good trade, no?

BTW - mine is definitely bigger

[Doc]

My invitation to sit in my sim this month is still open. Day 1 is the fun stuff, max x-wind, V1 cuts, engine fires, min vis t/o, cat III landings, low energy go-arounds, single engine approaches, NPAs, ILS to a missed approach, GPWS CFIT recovery, Jet Upset recovery (this one is a direct result of AC190), APU fire, loss of PFD and various other faults.

I would bloody love to take you up on that offer. However, since we live in a post 9/11 world, you'd have to teach me to land it. They frown on just take off and cruise training. I'd just like to hand fly the thing around for an hour or so. Maybe a hand flown ILS with an overshoot. In my dreams, right?
I think (love to the see the end of the "mine's bigger than yours" bullshit) most of us could fly the other guy's airplane, given the training.

You gotta red pass? You live in YYZ? I could try to arrange something to get you in. Probably have to be the late night stuff as it is pretty busy other times. I get you in, you crash it a couple of times and then buy me beer... hmmm, good trade, no?

BTW - mine is definitely bigger

Funny thing about the red pass. I have never needed one! Always been lucky enough to stay away from that foolishness. I like to make sure all my passengers are armed! At least with a Swiss Army Knife....at very least.
Strange how relaxed life can be away from the stupidity that goes with living/flying in a big city!
But, I would defiantly crash it, and buy beer.

[complexintentions]

Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?

No.

Next question?

I always have to chuckle when non-airline pilots feel the need to soothe their own egos by asking this sort of question. There are good hands and feet in all levels of aviation. (And lousy drivers as well, but they tend to get Darwin'ed out.)

[Mustard]

I think there should be a quick IQ test on here before you can register.
Saying someone's skill is lacking due to the level of automation of their A/C is quite funny.
So I guess an 800hr class 4 instructor on a cherokee 140 must be one of the best pilots in
Canada.

If someone has a GPS in their car does that mean they are a bad driver that gets lost every
time they pull out of the driveway.....unless there is a voice telling them which way to turn.

[Hedley]

most of us could fly the other guy's airplane

Indeed. I wish I had a buck for every time that someone had told me that aircraft X was a "fire breathing dragon" and that you had to have the hands and feet of . Yeager to fly it

[KAG]

How many of us would feel comfortable jumping back into our old machines and do a night circling approach in a black hole? I'm willing to bet I would not be as proficient at it as I once was, but I still think I could do it. That said I have a new skill set, and energy management has a new meaning to me. I may not be the northern guy I once was, but I’ll challenge anyone to a hand flown visual in LAS, where you’re kept in high and tight.

Hand flying is a skill and with any skill use it or lose it. That said it wouldn’t take much to sharpen the old scan off, and get my feet dancing.

[SAR_YQQ]

but I’ll challenge anyone to a hand flown visual in LAS, where you’re kept in high and tight.

They do that to do you guys too? Here I thought they were just being mean to the stupid military drivers.

[yycflyguy]

High and tight? I thought that only happened on the ground at LAS

[.......]

and another very interesting AVCANADA thread...

[Doc]

and another very interesting AVCANADA thread...

If we toss in meat and potatoes, we get the threads locked or deleted. At very least, our posts get pulled....everything's just peachy keen here. Nothing controversial being posted here. Move along.
Hell, this post will probably get yanked.

[Truckpilot]

...FYI - I told you before, I fly up to 10,000 and down from FAF or earlier. I knock off the FD and Autothrottles. Again, I only do it when it is appropriate...

Please explain, "appropriate"...

[Mustard]

appropriate -adj.- particularly suitable;fitting

[mel gibson]

I bet airline A's pilots flew better in their previous non- airline
aircraft than airline B's pilots!!!! Way better!!!

[Doc]

How many of us would feel comfortable jumping back into our old machines and do a night circling approach in a black hole?

I don't like doing those in an airplane I flew YESTERDAY!! I tend to avoid them.....like the plague!
Speaking of black holes, there was this one time, at band camp...

[sarg]

Take anyone who has experience out of their next gen jets - give them a super cub or a beaver or anything else you want to through at them and they will get back on that bicycle in no time --

umm, not sure
I had the opportunity to fly with some Air Transat pilots who wanted to rent a c172 to take their familly for a ride.
they needed around an hour and a bit more to feel comfortable on a machine they hadn't touch in more than 10 years.
then they didn't remember the spin recovery procedure and didn;t use their rudders at all and were afraid to stall on approach at 60knt.
that's what I saw and I don't generalize, I just saw two of them and they didn't get back on that bike in no time.
it's not the same job.

Scopiton, so that's the standard 1 hour to get back on the bike? 1 hour after 10 years on a type half the airline pilots probably have less than 200 hrs TT on. You realize how childish that sounds? Give them a reasonable 10-15 hours and I'm sure that they can keep up with you or even out fly you.