New TA reached!

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IronMan
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by IronMan »

Gentle Giant

If you think that AC will be giving ACPA Pilots more in WAWCON based on Jazz pilot wages your seriously miguided, or incredibly naieve. What will happen, I can gaurentee you, is that the less the Pilots make (Jazz/SkyRegional/Georgian etc.) which support your WAWCON at the top of the piloting profession pyramid, and the bigger the gap between the two groups, the easier and quicker the erosion of your WAWCON becomes for the Company. Just as Jazz Pilots have to be mindful of where the upper and lower bars are for the work they perform, so must ACPA Pilots.

Also, it would be far more palatable for any companyto have those pilots NOT at AC to fly bigger equipment for their current WAWCON, vs. ACPA Pilots flying smaller equipment for THEIR current WAWCON. So does it make sense for ACPA to erode what supports them? No, and hopefully the Pilots within APCA will seek new direction not only with the TA and the current negots, but with respect to their position in the industery as well.
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teacher
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by teacher »

IronMan wrote:What will happen, I can gaurentee you, is that the less the Pilots make (Jazz/SkyRegional/Georgian etc.) which support your WAWCON at the top of the piloting profession pyramid, and the bigger the gap between the two groups, the easier and quicker the erosion of your WAWCON becomes for the Company.
Well said :smt023

If the floor you're standing on crumbles, you go down too.
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

IronMan wrote:Gentle Giant

If you think that AC will be giving ACPA Pilots more in WAWCON based on Jazz pilot wages your seriously miguided, or incredibly naieve. What will happen, I can gaurentee you, is that the less the Pilots make (Jazz/SkyRegional/Georgian etc.) which support your WAWCON at the top of the piloting profession pyramid, and the bigger the gap between the two groups, the easier and quicker the erosion of your WAWCON becomes for the Company. Just as Jazz Pilots have to be mindful of where the upper and lower bars are for the work they perform, so must ACPA Pilots.

Also, it would be far more palatable for any companyto have those pilots NOT at AC to fly bigger equipment for their current WAWCON, vs. ACPA Pilots flying smaller equipment for THEIR current WAWCON. So does it make sense for ACPA to erode what supports them? No, and hopefully the Pilots within APCA will seek new direction not only with the TA and the current negots, but with respect to their position in the industery as well.
Look, there's only one pocket. If the Jazz CPA costs more than it needs to that means there's less left in the pocket. Your argument regarding wage erosion makes no sense - I could just as easily claim that you should support higher wages at the mainline so that it pulls your wage up. Do you agree? No? Of course the company would rather transfer jobs down to lower wage employees, do you think this is a good thing? Transfer jobs down to tier 2 and stop hiring at the mainline, this is good? :roll:
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dream_big
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by dream_big »

Now, seeing as how higher Jazz costs affect our ability to compete with the Westjet crowd and also affect our ability to negotiate a better contract why would we want to do that? Seriously, I asking your opinion, do you really think that ACPA should agree to work for less money and make Air Canada more expensive in order to allow the Jazz pilots to maintain their lifestyle?
YOUR SO RIGHT!! I could not agree more. Why give jazz the flying if Sky Regional can do it for half the price? It just makes sense!

AND WHY should Air Canada have EMB and airbus's if Jazz can do it for half the price. Effectively immediately all EMB going to jazz. This obviously needs to be changed cause it doesnt make sense and i quote just so AC pilots can mantain their lifestyle?

By god man, stop with the arrogance! You have a job, JAZZ has a job. just like jazz wants better working conditions so do you! So how would you feel if AC gave your EMB to jazz just cause their cheeper? EXACTLY!!! JAZZ doesn't want to steal your stinking work, they just want better lifestyle for themselves, just like you!
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

dream_big wrote:
Now, seeing as how higher Jazz costs affect our ability to compete with the Westjet crowd and also affect our ability to negotiate a better contract why would we want to do that? Seriously, I asking your opinion, do you really think that ACPA should agree to work for less money and make Air Canada more expensive in order to allow the Jazz pilots to maintain their lifestyle?
YOUR SO RIGHT!! I could not agree more. Why give jazz the flying if Sky Regional can do it for half the price? It just makes sense!

AND WHY should Air Canada have EMB and airbus's if Jazz can do it for half the price. Effectively immediately all EMB going to jazz. This obviously needs to be changed cause it doesnt make sense and i quote just so AC pilots can mantain their lifestyle?

By god man, stop with the arrogance! You have a job, JAZZ has a job. just like jazz wants better working conditions so do you! So how would you feel if AC gave your EMB to jazz just cause their cheeper? EXACTLY!!! JAZZ doesn't want to steal your stinking work, they just want better lifestyle for themselves, just like you!
You're missing the point. I never said I wish for Jazz to be paid less. What I said was that the way it's set up now results in the ACPA pilot's using some of their bargaining capital to maintain Jazz as the only tier 2 CPA. Effectively we are making the Jazz pilots the only choice and they are therefore indispensable - not only that but it costs ACPA to do this. The Jazz pilots are welcome to negotiate any wage they can get but you have to agree that the current structure is anti-intuitive.
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dream_big
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by dream_big »

You're missing the point. I never said I wish for Jazz to be paid less. What I said was that the way it's set up now results in the ACPA pilot's using some of their bargaining capital to maintain Jazz as the only tier 2 CPA. Effectively we are making the Jazz pilots the only choice and they are therefore indispensable - not only that but it costs ACPA to do this. The Jazz pilots are welcome to negotiate any wage they can get but you have to agree that the current structure is anti-intuitive.
ok, yes absolutely, your right, I agree with you on that. But at the same time, AC is the main player in what jazz has become today! So, now all of a sudden AC realizes it's issues with jazz being a structure that can't fail so now work is being given elsewhere at the jazz employees expensive!

It's not the fact AC is giving jazz flying elsewhere, it's the fact that this is the beginning of a downward trend for jazz. Because there will ALWAYS be someone who is willing to work for less then you! Yes AC shouldn't have all of it's eggs in one basket but come 2020, the uncertainty of this company won't be because AC wants to diversify it will be cause AC wants to give the flying to a cheaper company. Most jazz employees had nothing to do with the shaping, forming and management decisions of jazz and yet at the end of the day who is going to be feeling the brunt of the force? the employees.
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fly4ever
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by fly4ever »

Ok, that may be true and Jazz may be on a downward slide from here on unless they find other work.... but, what if they, AC/ACE intend to get Jazz to do the LCC flying. After the TC experiment this winter who is to say that this was not the plan all along. Test the waters, see if it can be done. There was never a doubt that AC signed off on Jazz doing the TC stuff cuz Jazz doesn't do anything without AC knowing. :wink:
ETOPS will be completed for jazz by the end of next season, 2012 and the plan is for them to operate all year round for TC. What is the contract agreement with TC and Jazz? Is there an out for Jazz? If so could they have planned all along to set up a LCC for AC? Do the pilots at AC have a say on a plan that would unfold from this angle?
Jazz pilots will already trained on the boeing 57 what is the course for the 67?
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

dream_big wrote:
You're missing the point. I never said I wish for Jazz to be paid less. What I said was that the way it's set up now results in the ACPA pilot's using some of their bargaining capital to maintain Jazz as the only tier 2 CPA. Effectively we are making the Jazz pilots the only choice and they are therefore indispensable - not only that but it costs ACPA to do this. The Jazz pilots are welcome to negotiate any wage they can get but you have to agree that the current structure is anti-intuitive.
ok, yes absolutely, your right, I agree with you on that. But at the same time, AC is the main player in what jazz has become today! So, now all of a sudden AC realizes it's issues with jazz being a structure that can't fail so now work is being given elsewhere at the jazz employees expensive!

It's not the fact AC is giving jazz flying elsewhere, it's the fact that this is the beginning of a downward trend for jazz. Because there will ALWAYS be someone who is willing to work for less then you! Yes AC shouldn't have all of it's eggs in one basket but come 2020, the uncertainty of this company won't be because AC wants to diversify it will be cause AC wants to give the flying to a cheaper company. Most jazz employees had nothing to do with the shaping, forming and management decisions of jazz and yet at the end of the day who is going to be feeling the brunt of the force? the employees.
I'm sympathetic to your worries but really no employee at any company has anything to do with the shaping of the company. Jazz has had many, many years of not being exposed to market forces - this is an aberration. Air Canada pilots are being paid 30% less than they were in 2003, how do Jazz wages compare? You may find your next contract offer from the company is less than what you are paid now - to that I would say, "welcome to my world".
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teacher
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by teacher »

fly4ever wrote:Ok, that may be true and Jazz may be on a downward slide from here on unless they find other work.... but, what if they, AC/ACE intend to get Jazz to do the LCC flying. After the TC experiment this winter who is to say that this was not the plan all along. Test the waters, see if it can be done. There was never a doubt that AC signed off on Jazz doing the TC stuff cuz Jazz doesn't do anything without AC knowing. :wink:
ETOPS will be completed for jazz by the end of next season, 2012 and the plan is for them to operate all year round for TC. What is the contract agreement with TC and Jazz? Is there an out for Jazz? If so could they have planned all along to set up a LCC for AC? Do the pilots at AC have a say on a plan that would unfold from this angle?
Jazz pilots will already trained on the boeing 57 what is the course for the 67?
WOW talk about conspiracy theory! What if the TC flying had gone to Enerjet, Westjet, or Canjet? Would the fear be that they would end up doing the LCC flying too? ACPA seems like they're one scared bunch. You guys gotta lay off the TC flying, it's just giving you gray hair. It has nothing to do with ACPA or AC other than that fact that your regional lift provider has a SEPERATE contract with another company to do flying OUTSIDE of an agreement with you. If one of your focuses in this new TA you're trying to negotiate is the TC flying done by Jazz than your wasting precious bargaining capital. The more you folks focus on factors outside of your company and outside of your control the more likely this next TA will also be a failure. You notice that not once has CR mentioned TC in his LCC speeches and interviews? He only mentions Transat, Sunwing and Westjet.

Jazz's venture into other business has been made necessary by ACs drive to eventually diversify tier 2 lift. You can't have Jazz lose flying and prevent Jazz from finding new business at the same time. For Jazz haters it's a dream, in reality it's just silly. Besides, if you think any union has that kind of power you're just fooling yourself.

Do we want you all to get a good contract with good WACON uplifts? Of course! Better wages at the top is always better for those at the bottom and vice versa.
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bcflyer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by bcflyer »

Good lord teacher. No and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO bargaing capital has been wasted with regards to your precious TC flying. There were no questions about it on the WAWCON survey and there was no mandate to the negots commitee with regards to any LCC. This was a HUGE surprise to the general membership at ACPA, hence the backlash you are now seeing.
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Inceptive
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Inceptive »

fly4ever wrote:Ok, that may be true and Jazz may be on a downward slide from here on unless they find other work.... but, what if they, AC/ACE intend to get Jazz to do the LCC flying. After the TC experiment this winter who is to say that this was not the plan all along. Test the waters, see if it can be done. There was never a doubt that AC signed off on Jazz doing the TC stuff cuz Jazz doesn't do anything without AC knowing. :wink:
Come on fly4ever,
Jazz's working conditions are way above what Calin has the stomach to pay for, as are ours at AC!
teacher wrote: If one of your focuses in this new TA you're trying to negotiate is the TC flying done by Jazz than your wasting precious bargaining capital. The more you folks focus on factors outside of your company and outside of your control the more likely this next TA will also be a failure.
Trust me, we aren't!
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Localizer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Localizer »

Maybe some people should learn the CPA before commenting about something they obviously know nothing about.

Air Canada pays Jazz a set rate for the CPA. Jazz pays employees/lease cost etc. etc. out of that set rate. Air Canada's CPA rates did not change when Jazz employee's negotiated their current agreements.

The CPA rates went down at the last set of negotiations between the two companies. Whoever is getting you guys going about the high cost of Jazz must be getting well compensated to jerk your chains.

Yikes people! There seems to be a lot of "shoot from the hip" information around here about AC/Jazz relationships.
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dream_big
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by dream_big »

I'm sympathetic to your worries but really no employee at any company has anything to do with the shaping of the company. Jazz has had many, many years of not being exposed to market forces - this is an aberration. Air Canada pilots are being paid 30% less than they were in 2003, how do Jazz wages compare? You may find your next contract offer from the company is less than what you are paid now - to that I would say, "welcome to my world".
welcome to your world? Sorry, but AC boys were not the only ones effected by CCAA. Jazz pilots took a huge hit and many are making less today too. Air Canada was not the only ones affected my good sir! and to top it, their contract barely helped out the senior guys but instead helped out junior pilots and future jazz pilots so they can have a better career.

This thread has gone too far. What sad is that at a time like this when unity between 2 companies should be the strongest in support of creating a better industry for us all, we are found insulting one another. And when it comes down to it, a better lifestyle and good secure working conditions is all everyone wants!!

Part of the problem with the industry today. Everyone just sees themselves and their own personal gain!

Out
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

dream_big wrote:
I'm sympathetic to your worries but really no employee at any company has anything to do with the shaping of the company. Jazz has had many, many years of not being exposed to market forces - this is an aberration. Air Canada pilots are being paid 30% less than they were in 2003, how do Jazz wages compare? You may find your next contract offer from the company is less than what you are paid now - to that I would say, "welcome to my world".
welcome to your world? Sorry, but AC boys were not the only ones effected by CCAA. Jazz pilots took a huge hit and many are making less today too.

I believe this is incorrect, the Jazz negotiators (astutely) negotiated a springback schedule. The Jazz payrates were recovered in a few years after CCAA, right?

Air Canada was not the only ones affected my good sir! and to top it, their contract barely helped out the senior guys but instead helped out junior pilots and future jazz pilots so they can have a better career.

This thread has gone too far. What sad is that at a time like this when unity between 2 companies should be the strongest in support of creating a better industry for us all, we are found insulting one another.

Ahhh, no insult, just discussion.

And when it comes down to it, a better lifestyle and good secure working conditions is all everyone wants!!

Part of the problem with the industry today. Everyone just sees themselves and their own personal gain!

This is nothing new although it may be the first time you have seen it.


Out
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std by
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by std by »

Just a note of caution in the new negots at mainline...To allow language in your contract to let the Management to use Non Unionized Labor, will not just bite Jazz in the nether region, it will come back to your back door real fast...Yes Non Unionized labor is cheaper than Jazz but there is a reason, you really want to go down that road?...thats where the bottom we have all been chasing is...

Take care and good luck..
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teacher
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by teacher »

bcflyer wrote:Good lord teacher. No and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO bargaing capital has been wasted with regards to your precious TC flying. There were no questions about it on the WAWCON survey and there was no mandate to the negots commitee with regards to any LCC. This was a HUGE surprise to the general membership at ACPA, hence the backlash you are now seeing.
I'm glad to hear that. Than do us and mostly yourselves a favour and focus on YOUR company and YOUR jobs. It seems like most of the attempted gains in the failed TA were about sticking it to someone else whether through Sky Regional, DC pensions for new hires or a LCC.

Good luck and stay focused on what's important. Trust me, the Thomas Cook flying at Jazz and Jazz in general are the LEAST of your worries at AC if at all. Your management is the real issue especially as they try to divert your attention from what's important and what they're doing.

Multi million dollar bonuses and wages and rich DB indexed pensions as they demand concessions from you and SOME folks at ACPA think Jazz is the threat. Don't take the bait folks.

Once again I repeat.........
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HavaJava
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by HavaJava »

teacher wrote: ACPA seems like they're one scared bunch. You guys gotta lay off the TC flying, it's just giving you gray hair.
Only if you lay off the Sky Regional flying! Seriously, I have nothing against Jazz (very good friends and relations working there) but this comment makes you sound completely hypocritical
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flyinhigh
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by flyinhigh »

Just my quick take.

I work for Jazz and proud to work for Jazz, I have been here for 4 years so I have NO beefs with any of the Mainline guys, as the mainline folk I have come across, none appear to have a beef with me (trying to screw them over with a high CPA):).

To me it is truely getting very sad when you have 2 major pilot groups ALWAYS at each other, let alone who is after who within ACPA. The ONLY way to better are industry is to all come together. Calin is doing a great job at diverting your attention saying that Jazz is the reason that you don't make money. Hes full of shit. It is a great diversion tactic againts what in the end will bring ACPA down.

None unionized labour will hurt you in the end, During the next negots they'll say, "well ______ will due this cheaper so we need conseccions, etc". It will happen don't think it won't.

Lastely, I am happy to see that your so apposed to this TA, its a crap shoot. To show I have NO hostilities to the ACPA group I will gladly be side by side with ya if you decide to strke. The only way to advance our industry is for All groups to stick together regardless of who you work for.

We need to forget the past, let bigons be bigons and stick together.

Cheers.

Mike
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

Jazz does less than 9% of the AC ASM's. Any suggestion that Jazz is the reason for cash flow woes at AC doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it. As you put it, just another example of smoke and mirrors from the magicians. Downward pressure on the profession doesn't help the pilots, it helps the shareholders. A rising tide raises all boats - WJPA is a perfect example of that principle in action.
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

There is going to be a second tier 2 CPA company for a couple of reasons;

1.) Last year the Jazz pilot's voted 98% in favour of a strike! The company realized that if this happened there would have been a huge operational impact. The big hammer you guys swung both helped you and hurt you - you got a good contract but also created the impetus to diversify the flying.

2.) The CPA cost is higher than they could get elsewhere.

3.) The ACPA guys have realized that the structure of the scope clause in their contract has resulted in ACPA protecting the Jazz pilots from economic competition at a cost to themselves!

Now, I don't wish a lower wage on the Jazz pilots but don't you see that everyone else in the industry faces economic pressure - except Jazz. If the price of fuel goes up, does it affect Jazz'es bottom line? If the GTAA charges more for a gate - does Jazz see an impact? Does Jazz management ever say, "we can't give you a raise because our NavCanada fees have gone up? No, no and no.

I know you guys didn't set it up this way yourselves but you have been operating in a bubble - it's an aberration that's going to change.
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Mig29 »

flyinhigh wrote:Just my quick take.

I work for Jazz and proud to work for Jazz, I have been here for 4 years so I have NO beefs with any of the Mainline guys, as the mainline folk I have come across, none appear to have a beef with me (trying to screw them over with a high CPA):).

To me it is truely getting very sad when you have 2 major pilot groups ALWAYS at each other, let alone who is after who within ACPA. The ONLY way to better are industry is to all come together. Calin is doing a great job at diverting your attention saying that Jazz is the reason that you don't make money. Hes full of shit. It is a great diversion tactic againts what in the end will bring ACPA down.

None unionized labour will hurt you in the end, During the next negots they'll say, "well ______ will due this cheaper so we need conseccions, etc". It will happen don't think it won't.

Lastely, I am happy to see that your so apposed to this TA, its a crap shoot. To show I have NO hostilities to the ACPA group I will gladly be side by side with ya if you decide to strke. The only way to advance our industry is for All groups to stick together regardless of who you work for.

We need to forget the past, let bigons be bigons and stick together.

Cheers.

Mike

HUGE + 1 :smt038
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

Gentle Giant wrote:There is going to be a second tier 2 CPA company for a couple of reasons;

1.) Last year the Jazz pilot's voted 98% in favour of a strike! The company realized that if this happened there would have been a huge operational impact. The big hammer you guys swung both helped you and hurt you - you got a good contract but also created the impetus to diversify the flying.


2.) The CPA cost is higher than they could get elsewhere.


3.) The ACPA guys have realized that the structure of the scope clause in their contract has resulted in ACPA protecting the Jazz pilots from economic competition at a cost to themselves!


Now, I don't wish a lower wage on the Jazz pilots but don't you see that everyone else in the industry faces economic pressure - except Jazz. If the price of fuel goes up, does it affect Jazz'es bottom line? If the GTAA charges more for a gate - does Jazz see an impact? Does Jazz management ever say, "we can't give you a raise because our NavCanada fees have gone up? No, no and no.

I know you guys didn't set it up this way yourselves but you have been operating in a bubble - it's an aberration that's going to change.
1. True

2. True

3. Debatable. This was a principle and control clause that is now being traded for gain elsewhere.

The terms of the Jazz CPA are not an aberration, they are the norm. The only difference is the margin amount. You will not find a CPA bidder that is going to expose itself to the variance in the cost of fuel, nor will you find an airline willing to pay margin on fuel. Same applies to the other third party charges that you listed.

Sky Regional was set up with almost a zero capital investment from SKY. The aircraft are subleased from AC and overhead is somewhere approacing nil. If AC were to decide to abandon YTZ, the operation could be wound up at amost no cost to SKY. I will bet that the terms of the deal with SKY contain that exact language with a handshake payment to make SKY whole for training expense and employee severance. Good luck finding anybody other than Russ Payson that would accept those terms.
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

rudder wrote:
1. True

2. True

3. Debatable. This was a principle and control clause that is now being traded for gain elsewhere.

The terms of the Jazz CPA are not an aberration, they are the norm. The only difference is the margin amount. You will not find a CPA bidder that is going to expose itself to the variance in the cost of fuel, nor will you find an airline willing to pay margin on fuel. Same applies to the other third party charges that you listed.

Sky Regional was set up with almost a zero capital investment from SKY. The aircraft are subleased from AC and overhead is somewhere approacing nil. If AC were to decide to abandon YTZ, the operation could be wound up at amost no cost to SKY. I will bet that the terms of the deal with SKY contain that exact language with a handshake payment to make SKY whole for training expense and employee severance. Good luck finding anybody other than Russ Payson that would accept those terms.
The "aberration" I was referring to is that Jazz is specifically named in the ACPA contract as the only source for the tier 2 flying. The intent of this was to prevent the company from signing other CPA companies to the detriment of ACPA but the result has been to shield Jazz from market forces and competition.

I do agree that SKY is a backroom monstrosity however. Personally, I would have preferred (if the company really needed to do this) to have had Georgian or CMA do it.
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

People talk about being saddled with the 'burden' of the Jazz CPA.

Jazz will be replacing the AC CPA lift of 15 subleased (from AC) CRJ's with Jazz owned Q400's. This means that none of the fleet ownership costs of the Jazz Q400's will exist on the AC balance sheet. That is a good thing for AC and hopefully signals a trend. How many potential CPA partners can afford to do that?

Food for thought. You have to look at all of the costs, not just the obvious ones.
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

If pilot wages are so important to profitability, particularly, for an LCC; how come the two most successful North American LCC's (Westjet and Southwest) have the industries highest paid narrow body pilots ? The fact is that pilot pay does not ultimately effect the success of the airline, it is the competence of the management that will decide success or failure.

I think Air Canada pilots need to draw the line in the sand here.

-NO throwing the new hires under the bus
-NO WAWCON concessions
-A reasonable across the board pay hike

Any talk from management about how WAWCON concessions are necessary to ensure the viability of the airline are both factually incorrect and are designed to obfuscate the issue and focus attention away from managements failures.

One thing is for sure, once you give up WAWCON's you are never going to get them back.
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