Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

This forum has been developed to discuss maintenance topics in Canada.

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iflyforpie
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by iflyforpie »

summitx wrote:My aircraft is for sale. It will be gone by this fall. Got my license in 82 owned ac since 86 worked 10 years in the business. My annual went up 40% in the last 2 years for the basic work. This combined with fuel price increases, Nav Canada fees, increase medical costs, landing fees, increased airport tie down fees etc makes it not worth while. Interestingly the increase in the annual costs was the straw that broke my back. I hope the hole you folks are shooting in your foot feels good. GA is dead. Bought a motorcycle and a parapont. GA was fun but not that much fun.

As I see it the real loss is the one less guy in the coffee shop talking about the great flight he had yesterday and how great it is to own an aircraft.

I suspect most of you will be out of business soon. You've certainly lost my business.
Well, that is too bad. Poor time to sell an aircraft though, with the economy the way it is.

But do you not think for a second that perhaps part of the increase in annual costs is because everything else has increased in price? We still have to live too you know. In the ten years I've been an AME, fuel prices have doubled, house prices have nearly tripled, and wages have hardly moved (oh sure, I make a little bit more, and the tax man takes a lot more). Shop rates have gone from $60 where I started to $100 where I work now.... a fucking bargain if you ask me considering what all else has gone up! If GA maintenance was portable, you'd be getting your aircraft maintained in China. The big boys are already heading for the third world!

If you got to own an aircraft for cheap for a few years, good for you. I don't own one and probably never will on an AME wage with a young family because they are way too expensive... even with all the free labour in the world. Even with aircraft available to me for fuel costs only I only logged 25 hours a year flying personally. I am not a charity operation for the more affluent to smile at the coffee shop.

And don't feel too concerned for your shop. Like aircraft rentals to flight schools, private maintenance is almost a public service by the time you deal with whiny owners, delinquent accounts, and aircraft that are ready for the scrap heap. Any shop that has a hope in hell of making it has commercial contracts where for the most part they are most interested in dispatch reliability so they can make money with their aircraft.
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azimuthaviation
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by azimuthaviation »

Who did yout maintenance for you? i would say they did a pretty good job since I would bet you dont have a lot of other vehicles you bought used in 1986 that still is valuable enough to sell in the six figures.

And coffee with pilots? Youre in much better company now. The biker community has far, far more interesting tales to tell Im sure, and by the time youre a full patch member, you will too
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by crazy_aviator »

A little about me , Ive been in this industry 27 years, CPL Multi-ifr , AME M1, Owned and restored more than 11 A/C. Started out at 7 dollars /Hr. NOW making 25.00/hr, with NO benefits, in the Okanogan. After only 2 weeks of work in the last 5 months, i asked the boss about working elsewhere, on contract, the answer NO , would be working for competitors !!!, I finally quit and went on contract ,,,,LISTEN,,,, for 30.00 / Hr. ( give them and the customers a break :roll: ) I dont take breaks therefore i dont charge the owner 30-45 min a day while drinking coffee. If i make an error , i pay for it , I am 100 % honest with all customers and the boss. The customer decides which work to do, the airplane is only inspected to the extent necessary and in accordance with the CARS. Customers bring in their own parts to be installed, open and close panels etc.

Now, my plane sits and rarely flies ( cant afford the fuel)

Can you see where im trying to gouge the customer here? Can you see where the AMO is putting A/C owners out of the industry ?

Yes. there are MANY incompetant and sluggard AME s out there ( fortunately with the airlines mostly)
but , after over 25 years and charging 30/hr on CONTRACT and the boss still reminds me of the "write-off" i will get LOL ,,,this industry , especially the private side is becoming a real JOKE !!!!
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comfail
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by comfail »

After reading the comments on this thread I hope that all this stuff is due to the economic situation and is only temporary. But I can't help but be nervous about buying an aircraft after being enlightened to these issues. Down the road I hope I don't have to resort to buying an x punch, hammer, label maker and a mastercraft socket set. That would be scary.
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KISS_MY_TCAS
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

Summitx, sell your plane, you can't afford it. Better yet, give me your contact info, I'll come out and do a pre-buy on it and offer you what it's REALLY worth. GA is for the most part dead, in large part due to private owners. I am an AME with a commercial operator that takes on private aircraft as time permits, and freelance on private aircraft owned by commercial pilots I work with. The private work that calls the hangar we shun, private owners are too time-intensive to tolerate, and cheap to boot. We look after 1 private owner's 2 brand new aircraft, and have dealt with him for years as he knows our reputation in the commercial world and wants his aircraft maintained to the same standard. He never disputes the bill, and we enjoy his company, and we assure his money spent has value, it is a mutual respect. As stated in this thread, AMEs need to eat too, and we don't care about YOUR budget, we care about ours. Costs increase, it is reflected on your bill. When your annual is too expensive and you need to sell your plane, it is not your AMEs fault. 10 years ago you could buy a home for 1/3 of current prices in most of Canada, do you blame your realtor? GA has never been strong in Canada compared to other countries and it never will be. A VERY small percentage of AMEs work GA, but private owners never stop and question why, perhaps you are part of the problem. Sell your plane, which forces you to fly either airline or charter, which opens a higher paid position for the AME at a new job when he escapes GA work cause the well dried up. Selling your plane due to cost is only providing your AME with a chance at a higher wage, so perhaps we should be thanking you. Most AMEs in Canada need a private aircraft to look after like they need a hole in the head.
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photofly
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by photofly »

...we don't care about YOUR budget, we care about ours.
I think that sums up this thread in a single line. From both points of view.
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System Message
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by System Message »

Now I know why as a kid I saw rows of airplanes that sat with the owners not flying them for years. They simply got sick and tired of dealing with inspection engineers that base the price of a log entry on whatever the next boat-house-exwife payment is coming up.
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If we can put oil in the engine while we're flying then we have absolutely no problem at all.
SeptRepair
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by SeptRepair »

comfail wrote: Down the road I hope I don't have to resort to buying an x punch, hammer, label maker and a mastercraft socket set. That would be scary.
The way of the future in GA is exactly that. I would prefer to work on nothing but Homebuilds and experimental aircraft. Less bullshit, stress and best of all responsibility.
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How can you tell which one is the pilot when you walk into a bar?....Don't worry he will come up and tell you.
SeptRepair
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by SeptRepair »

System Message wrote:Now I know why as a kid I saw rows of airplanes that sat with the owners not flying them for years. They simply got sick and tired of dealing with inspection engineers that base the price of a log entry on whatever the next boat-house-exwife payment is coming up.
Of course that's assuming an AME could actually afford a house and a boat.
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How can you tell which one is the pilot when you walk into a bar?....Don't worry he will come up and tell you.
System Message
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by System Message »

Of course they have boat payments. The exwife's boyfriend is using it right now.
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If we can put oil in the engine while we're flying then we have absolutely no problem at all.
crazy_aviator
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by crazy_aviator »

Most AMEs in Canada need a private aircraft to look after like they need a hole in the head.
Couldnt have said it better myself !

ONCE the AME s budget is met, you are then dealing with a HAPPY AME who is going to look after YOUR budget.
If you take the bone away from the dog, do you think the dog will be ever so happy with you that it would lick your feet ?
The ONLY reason pilots fly for peanuts is because they have a inordinate "hard-on" for flying ! AND expect the AME to think and act the same when he/she does your maintenance !
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System Message
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by System Message »

And that should be the difference between private and commercial aircraft. Engineers think private aircraft are not worth the hassle, and they are right. Private aircraft owners resent professionals messing with their aircraft while collecting hundreds and thousands while not improving the condition of the aircraft. Private aircraft would be held to the same standards they are now with the only difference being the inspections signed for by the owner.
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If we can put oil in the engine while we're flying then we have absolutely no problem at all.
Posthumane
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by Posthumane »

Crazy - I don't think were as far apart in opinion as it first seemed. I don't nickel-and-dime my AMO and don't argue the bill I get for the work that was done. I realize that parts are expensive and that their time is worth what it costs. But if I have the opportunity to change my own oil or tires legally, then why not do it and save some time? The AMO is not putting in any effort for that, and therefore they are not charging anything for it. I save money, they save time and have more available to work on higher paying commercial customers. I'm not about to go asking them to use their tools or hangar to do my own work, that would be silly.

Fuel is expensive, as is insurance, etc. But so far the number one biggest cost has been maintenance, it certainly hasn't been the cheapest link like you imply. Therefore, if I can put in some of my own elbow grease to reduce the cost, why not? Since GA aircraft are not a money maker for AMOs anyway, then having a few less things to do when an aircraft comes in for annual should be a bonus.
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KISS_MY_TCAS
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

System Message wrote:And that should be the difference between private and commercial aircraft. Engineers think private aircraft are not worth the hassle, and they are right. Private aircraft owners resent professionals messing with their aircraft while collecting hundreds and thousands while not improving the condition of the aircraft. Private aircraft would be held to the same standards they are now with the only difference being the inspections signed for by the owner.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier in this thread, now I regret it. You sir, are the epitome of what is wrong with GA. If you think you can crank on your puddle jumper and maintain it to the same standard as a commercial aircraft, you are mistaken. But by the sounds of it the AME or AMO you hire is cheap, and in your mind worth every penny you pinch because you rebuilt a lawnmower engine once and an aircraft is "just another machine" and you likely have been bitten by your cheap ways and paint the maintenance industry as a whole with your vast knowledge from finding the lowest bidder, which over the years has made you an aircraft maintaining genius. Pricks like you that think AMEs all stare at their wallets are exactly what is wrong with GA, PLEASE move your aircraft into owner maintenance, you will be doing the entire industry a favour. We need statistics to learn from, or at least a good "what a moron" story when the accident report gets published. Then when you "lawn dart" your impeccable owner maintained death trap, I can park my boat in the driveway you once shared with your widow. It's all good though, we hooked up while you were at the airport spanking it on Sundays to your future coffin, only difference is I will have 2 lawns to mow, 3 if you count the property I already own. Giggity.
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System Message
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Re: Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

Post by System Message »

Good morning. I knew that would get you a little wound up.

To clarify for anyone who did not read from the beginning my point was that both the engineers who said they could not perform an annual on a no electric j3 or similar airplane for only hundreds not thousands of dollars, and owners that complained of an annual that cost thousands on a very simple airplane are including a years worth of maintenance in the inspection. The inspection needs to be seen as an estimate of needed work and should be paid for it. It does not mean the aircraft inspector will be the one to do it.

KISS_MY_TCAS
When you finaly get to the point where you can retire and tour around in that little airplane that you spent every free moment for twelve years restoring and found that it was not worth maintaining your maintenance license just for your own aircraft try not to take it in a personal way when a youngster insults your ability to change the oil.
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If we can put oil in the engine while we're flying then we have absolutely no problem at all.
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