Ice Pilots - Season 3

[flyinthebug]

Just the facts: It doesn't cost 20k to do a PPC maybe 2k for jsut the ride since all of the dedicated training is done on empty legs.

That is very interesting, if that is true Buffalo does not have a leg to stand on, in expecting guys to stay around after being PPC'd as the airplane costs are already covered, with the exception of the flight the Ride takes place on. No wonder they don't have a bond at Buffalo there training costs must be comparatively low.

Ok since we are going on just facts...allow me to correct one of yours PP2800. You seem to think that ALL training can be done on revenue flights and thats simply not true. I dont have the exact CAR reference for you so please dont ask, but let me assure you I have had more than my share of debates with TC over this exact issue. My arguement as a manager was that it was a "dead leg" anyway, so why did they have a problem with it? TC advised me (more than 1 inspector) that they frowned on ANY training on any revenue flight...dead leg or not. They absolutely would not allow me to count 4 hours of training for 4 hours of dead leg, revenue flight, stick time. So the fact is that although TV doesnt show it, Joe paid for some dedicated training hours for that young man...because TC says it must be that way. I dont agree with it, but it is how TC mandates training.

With my Op we were given an allowance up to 50% of required training time could be administered during a dead leg of a revenue flight. The remaining 50% were required to be dedicated training hours. So at very least it cost Joe 10 grand...and thats a stretch too as I operate small twins (Navajo, King Air) and I would think TCA would want all training hours on a 46 to be dedicated. He may well have received 8 hours stick time...with maybe NONE of what we saw on TV as actual training time. Maybe someone at Buffalo can enlighten us all on what the facts are for that particular op? I assure you the IP from TCA in your area, makes a BIG difference of what regs you can bend a bit, and what ones you cant.

the goal is soul... I have been running tin around the north for a few years now. I watch this show and relate to the many headaches that come with trying to run piston aircraft in -35. Trying to secure more work so I didnt have to lay off any staff...and yes many 3 am calls!

It is a thankless job at times and thanks for the words and for the view from the other side of the desk. I do understand what your saying. I know Gord did what was in his best interest and Ive never once said he shouldnt have taken the job. What I said is simply that he could have been upfront with Joe and let him decide whether to do the upgrade or keep him on the 3. He never gave Joe a chance. I guess your right though...a person watches out for their own bacon these days...despite how it may affect others. Kinda sad if you ask me.

Fly safe all.

[NWONT]

Right on Goal. Operating costs are exactly that. Everything that is figured in before the profit is realized. That profit is where higher wages etc comes from. If one guy takes a hike and drops profits the rest that stay pay the price. Training bonds remove all the guesswork. If your serious about your company, you make a commitment to the man thats going to invest in you. If not, don't ask the boss to invest everybody elses future in you. I've worked for guys like Joe. I like the direct approach, you always know where you stand. If not just ask. The door swings both ways. I'm surprised Doc hasn't started barking on this one, maybe somebody should sweep the snow off his soap box.

[robertsailor1]

If it makes anyone feel better aviation is not on its own when it comes to everyone for himself attitudes. Times have changed and people have changed and all industries are faced with exactly the same attitude as you describe. There is lots of history that set the stage for this attitude but its pretty much industry standard now.

[NWONT]

My entire DC-3 endorsement was done on revenue flights and empty legs on skis with Treveor Northcott, one of the best. He's gone to that great hanger in the sky. I could not have asked for better training in a work environment. I have no idea why TC would frown on this.

[PistonPounder2800]

Okay flyinthebug nobody asked for your life story. I said that all of the training was done on empty legs I didn't say that it was legal because it isn't, don't start quoting the CARS to me. I worked at buffalo for a long time. Just think if they caught Joe yelling at his employees as much as they do on camera then how much yelling does he do behind the scenes? I understand a lot of people are looking at this from a owners standpoint but I guarantee that none of you treat your employees like Joe does. Also when Joe said don't roll your eyes at me he wasn't even looking at Gord he was just on a rant. Someone like that doesn't deserve squat!

[flyinthebug]

My entire DC-3 endorsement was done on revenue flights and empty legs on skis with Treveor Northcott, one of the best. He's gone to that great hanger in the sky. I could not have asked for better training in a work environment. I have no idea why TC would frown on this.

I agree with you 100% and argued my case many times. TC sees it differently and unless things have changed that dramatically in the last 3 yrs, I wouldnt go around broadcasting this if I were you. Thats my 2 cents.

PP2800...

I feel the tone in your post. Im sure Joe is not an easy man to work for, but that doesnt mean people should screw him over. Im sorry you had such a bad experience there. I hope your career has taken the path you pictured for yourself. Its not easy to make a living in the north...as an owner or a pilot or both.
Fly safe all.

[TG]

Not talking here about Buffalo or pointing fingers.

I must be missing something so I'm sure I will be corrected.
How can someone call training a straight and level flight ? (dead leg)

Unless for example you have a 2 hrs ferry that turns out to be 3hrs at the end because you did some actual training!
Must be the case if you add slow flights, steep turns, stalls, simulated engine failures, etc...
Will this 1hr of training be counted as 3 to save some bucks and get the minimums required quicker ?
If so, that is plain and simple borderline criminal!

Or is it that you do a couple of dead legs (5, 10 or more) and add some airborne time to it ?
This added time meeting TC's requirements ?
At the end you have more time on the machine and ticked all the boxes of your training forms... !?
In that case, why not do dedicated training flights and add dead legs to them ?

I won't argue that being given the opportunity to fly dead legs, doing the approaches and landings at the end add to the overall experience. Especially about how the operations are done.
But flying one approach is technically only 0.3 of your flight time.


I had one long gone outfit back in the early 90's who gave me "dead legs" training on a C-206 (I know, easy aircraft) That was pure bullsh!t and only to save some $$$.
I also had another outfit who gave me the bare minimum of 5hrs before letting me go alone on a Beech 18. Another animal all by itself!
No dead legs added and no past tail wheel/twin experience for me.
Depending on the crosswind and runways status, I won't call my first 50hrs on it scary but it sure had all my attention

[flyinthebug]

Not talking here about Buffalo or pointing fingers.

I must be missing something so I'm sure I will be corrected.
How can someone call training a straight and level flight ? (dead leg)

This was exactly what TCA`s arguement was with me. They agreed it was some actual hands on time, but it did not cover even 20% of required elements of training for a PPC. They also didnt believe that a revenue flight should be in any way associated with training. It was like this in the prairie regions...i would assume its the same across Canada. Although I think we all know there are distinct differences between certain regions.

Maybe Foggy or Prairie Chicken could weigh in on this and set us straight on what the actual regs are in this regard? Hearing NWONT say he did all his training on a 3 on revenue flights is disturbing to me. Id just like some clarity from those that know? CD? Foggy? PC? anyone?

PS...NWONT TC did not frown on guys/gals going along for the experience and stick time on dead legs. They actually encouraged that as a method to familiarize the new pilot to his or her plane... but they refused to allow us to count it as dedicated training. I sincerely hope someone weighs in here and sets us straight.

[SeptRepair]

Just watched this week's soap..
A few comments/questions, generally in chronological order..

Hard not to feel happy for Larry when Mikey gives him the news of his upgrade - genuine enthusiasm and emotion there.

So if the -46 is such a bear, why land it downwind as Gord did at ?Norman Wells?

Maintenance isn't my strong suit, but can't you just weld up exhaust cracks?

When Larry is fuel-oiling prior to his ride, why did he stuff ?oily? rags into the outside of the left nacelle? Seems to me to be a bit of a fire hazard?

Why land the -46 tail low? Why not just wheel it on and pin the mains like they seem to do with the -3, and then chop the power, and wait for the tail to fall? Is the tailwheel weak?

I suspect the rags were shoved in there to help soak up some spilled oil or perhaps put in there before the oil goes in to catch any spills. TV editing I supposed makes it look different. As for the exhaust they most likely realized that when the exhaust starts cracking it is just a waste of time trying to weld the stacks as your just chasing the crack. The metal is so brittle, contaminated and thin there usually isn't much left to be welded. I think they also said the reason for the tail low approach was to give the aircraft more surface area to help slow it down??

[Sam300]

Just watched this week's soap..
A few comments/questions, generally in chronological order..

Hard not to feel happy for Larry when Mikey gives him the news of his upgrade - genuine enthusiasm and emotion there.

So if the -46 is such a bear, why land it downwind as Gord did at ?Norman Wells?

Maintenance isn't my strong suit, but can't you just weld up exhaust cracks?

When Larry is fuel-oiling prior to his ride, why did he stuff ?oily? rags into the outside of the left nacelle? Seems to me to be a bit of a fire hazard?

Why land the -46 tail low? Why not just wheel it on and pin the mains like they seem to do with the -3, and then chop the power, and wait for the tail to fall? Is the tailwheel weak?

Good questions indeed, if the exhausts are too far gone to weld, have new ones custom made.

I also agree with the wheel landing technique you described, best chance to have control over the aircraft.

Looking forward to next weeks soap!

[SeptRepair]

Good questions indeed, if the exhausts are too far gone to weld, have new ones custom made.

The cost to tool up for new exhaust including the regulatory paper work for certification would make it cost prohibitive. Cheaper to continually source old parts and pieces and continually band-aid them together.

[ywg9]

Dead legs, I may be mistaken and I am sure I am not but to be a dead leg would imply that there was no revenue onboard that leg. Well take a look at where they take off from, they were leaving
Yellowknife going up north with freight onboard so that is not a dead leg. Also not to sure but if you are considering it a dead leg and doing training not sure you could have anyone onboard not required ie the maintance guy they always take with them.

in Gords defence his interview was 8 months ago how long does one have to wait before you figure your not getting the call. If I interview and airline A a year ago should I not ever take an upgrade cause I did an interview in the past. I dont feel to bad for Joe for what he thinks it cost him, treat people with respect and not like idiots, your not the best pilot in the world like his attitude would tend to suggest. Oh and can someone please explain to me why you would ignore a fire alarm on three diffrent take offs
only to find out it was a real problem.

I do have to say I watch the show every week and have even meet and partied with a couple of the guys up in YTH good guys but why put some of this stuff on film for TC to come back later and perhaps violate you.

[robertsailor1]

TC is not going to violate anyone on a scripted make believe show. They more than anyone know that its been cut and pasted for entertainment purposes only and may or may not have any reality in it.

[NO LINK*]

I would be surprised if any training was done during a "revenue" leg. I mean doing steep turns with a full load on is not really normal, but coming home on the dead leg where the cargo has been emptied is a perfect chance to train. In addition to a candidate FO, who's on the board the aircraft? A well experienced flight crew and maybe a company AME.

Good luck getting an interpretation on a ReG from TC, let alone one from those who used to be. (because you will likely get 4 different ones) The question posed about training on revenue flights should be cleary stated in the COM. In that book there should also be some advice regarding safe training practices. These are likely common among air operators to some extent. However consider case of a cargo airplane on a 'dead' leg with a pallet jack and some tarps rolling around in the back, versus, paying customers recieving meal service or such. Another influence in how the COM outlines these activities would be the insurance company for the air carrier. I dont think most policies would insure training activities while on a revenue leg.


Flame on

[justwork]

What I have learned is you never tell your CP or boss that you've interviewed anywhere else, or that you're looking for other work. If you don't get the job, which happens all the time, you'll have shot yourself in the foot. It's the sad truth. I had been with a company for just over a year, told my CP I was trying to get work back in my home town... took 2 more years in the right seat before I got an upgrade, all the while they were hiring direct entry captains with similar experience as me. I had never had any performance issues, worked my ass off for him every day, I was never late, never sick in 3 years, never had a problem with any other employee... I just had shot myself in the foot by respecting the company enough to let them know I wasn't going to be a lifer in they're mom and pop shop.

What if Gord didn't get the job but had told Joe he was trying? I bet he would have never seen the left seat in that C-46, even if he stuck around for decade. Not to mention he would be on the shit list until he left. He worked hard for that company for 6 years, in my eyes they owe each other nothing. Hell, how much money did he save them by landing that DC-3 with the oil leak when even the mechanic on board was telling him it was likely an indication problem? PPC paid in full.

[hawker driver]

After watching the episode I too have to add my comments and suggestions.

First of all I would encourage Buffalo Joe or any of you owner-pilot-managers of charter airlines to consider reading the book “Management by Trust” ....

http://www.amazon.com/Management-Trust- ... 442&sr=1-1

It was written by Kenn Ricci the founder and CEO of Flight Options the fractional airline. It gives his philosophy on how to treat and manage pilots. He tell of his experience of having to hire and train over 1000 pilots in a three year period from 1999 to 2002 and his reasoning for not having training bonds or any sort of pay for training.

In nutshell he states that if the first thing you do to a new pilot/employee is tell them that you don’t trust them by giving them a bond to sign your relationship with that pilot/employee is tarnished from the beginning.

He accepts the fact that there are those who would take advantage of the type rating but if they leave then they were not the right employee for the company after all.
Kenn Ricci has on many occasions stated that your employees are your most valuable assets and how you treat them will determine how successful your business is. By the looks of how things are going for Buffalo Joe this seems to fit perfectly.

[azimuthaviation]

Joes a very fair man. It goes both ways. Im sure if a rampie decided to leave after 6 months or a year on the ramp without a flying job Joe would cut him a cheque for the amount of missing wages a regular rampie/delivery driver would get if he was not expecting a flying job at the end. So he should expect the same treatment when the shoes on the other foot. Its another "unwritten rule" isnt it?

[justwork]

Joes a very fair man. It goes both ways. Im sure if a rampie decided to leave after 6 months or a year on the ramp without a flying job Joe would cut him a cheque for the amount of missing wages a regular rampie/delivery driver would get if he was not expecting a flying job at the end. So he should expect the same treatment when the shoes on the other foot. Its another "unwritten rule" isnt it?

I don't understand what you're talking about. Joe would give money to a rampie that quit? Why? Are you being sarcastic? What's going on? Regular rampies get paid more than guys that want to fly?

[NWONT]

On dead legs we would do a few steep turns, stalls, etc. I did more time than normal as I was the engineer on the aircraft and travelled with it everywhere it went. Not much point in me being in Pickle lake when the bird is broke down in Big Trout. I always jumped in the left seat on empty legs and flew it many times loaded with freight. This was done for a full winter about 35 years ago. There was never any "actual" passengers. I'll leave this alone as it gets confusing. I got a lot of real ski time in very deep snow where it was well trained on how a ski could be stalled an then stall the aircraft, plus much more.

[azimuthaviation]

Of course Im being sarcastic. A delivery driver for canada post or purolator or fed ex would make about 60 000 a year including benefits working an 8 hour day. those guys who invested a year or six months of their time in order to get an opportunity to fly that never materialised dont have the option to demand return on their investment. A lot more people lost their investment on Joe but then Joe is up in arms the one time he gets the raw end of the deal?

[FL500]

Training pilots is part of the business. You figure out what your training costs are going to be, how many revenue hours you fly, and then you come up with an amortized figure to add to your rates. You've got to factor in attrition. Joe is smart enough to know by now that Buffalo isn't for everybody forever, and there are lots of other things that can ruin a training investment (lost medical, hitting a berm with a sled, etc).
$20,000 sounds like a lot to you or me (Is it $20,000 per person? Or per aircraft with more than one person?) and business owners will make a big deal out of it, but $20,000 is less than what it costs to fill an Electra to the brim with Jet-A. A friend of mine owns the local A&W and he was complaining he had to buy a $1000 oven to keep bread warm. I said what's the big deal? He said, what would you as an employee think of paying for that? Yeah, $1000 out of a $25,000/yr job really hurts; but $1000 out of a $1,000,000+ gross annual revenue is hardly anything...And what are pilots supposed to do? Not apply to anywhere, then when you apply tell Joe and get treated like shit for who knows how long? I'm sure Buffalo has taken pilots from other jobs too (though God knows why?).

Yea accidents happen you deal with it, actively looking to go isn't an accident.

Gross revenue means nothing it's net profit that counts if your net profit is $10,000 that unexpect $1,000 oven just wiped out 10% of your profit.


I'm sure if he was looking at First Air he was looking that other companies as well.

Well said sarg. I`d just like to add a few things...

iflyforpie...It is called "total absorption cost" and good managers figure this type of expence into those costs. That said....if only 1 person walks out with one PPC...maybe the company will recover. What happens when 6 pilots all decide to leave the same way, similiar time? Then the 20 grand hit just became 120K. As sarg said overall gross revenue in no way reflects net profit. We felt lucky to have a 10-13% margin at the end of the day...so if a company has a gross of say 5 mill per yr with a 10% margin, thats 500K in GROSS profit... now 6 pilots walk out with 6 PPC`s that generated very little revenue... now your gross is down to 380K and you havent even addressed the "oh shit, we didnt expect that pile" and thats a very real expence. i.e you go mechanical in a foreign area to your ops. Now you have to put your 15 passengers in hotels in an expensive city. Your maintenance costs are triple because he is the only AMO in town and you need to get going. These types of unforeseen expences affect the gross profit...so at the end of the day there aren`t many beans left to count. Trust me, ive operated older tin in the North for many years and you have no idea the costs involved in trying to keep older tin in the air, in adverse weather conditions etc etc. There is no way to plan for total absorption costs that are completely unexpected. So that affects your bottom line as well. 20K to an op Joe`s size may only be a full fuel load on the Electra, but that fuel load will get them a revenue far exceeding 20K, so its not even comparable. The fact remains that once again a pilot walked out with his shiny new PPC that he wont even be using at First, and it cost Joe 20 grand in real money. Its easy to say its only this or that or a drop in the bucket...when its not YOUR money. 20 grand to Joe is just like 20 grand to anyone else.

Is it me or did I hear this guy say that he applied a while back but did not get any response from First Air So if we take him at his word then why would he not take the upgrade PPC from Joe, He thought First Air was not interested, and the fact that this is how things turned out well I agree it sucks for Joe and his company but maybe Carma`s just levelling the score for poor treated of employees

FlySafe all.

[DHCdriver]

Just finished watching last weeks show. I have no choice but to take Gord's side. I believe he didn't know of his future employment with First Air. We all put in resumes everywhere when we were that age, hoping to get on the big iron. I see no advantage to taking the PPC on the 46 and then jumping ship, it's not as if he's going to use it over there. If he didn't get hired then he would of carried on with his career as Captain on the 46 and DC-3. Why would he go through all that hassle with the PPC and then leave As for Joe blowing up at Gord is so unprofessional of him and has left abad impression of him to many viewers. It maybe just TV but I think that one took the cake. Good Luck Gord your almost there. Joe as for you, get some anger management, it will do you some good DHC

[Cat Driver]

I would be surprised if any training was done during a "revenue" leg. I mean doing steep turns with a full load on is not really normal, but coming home on the dead leg where the cargo has been emptied is a perfect chance to train. In addition to a candidate FO, who's on the board the aircraft? A well experienced flight crew and maybe a company AME.

What is wrong with doing steep turns with a full load on?

[HO Driver]

What is wrong with doing steep turns with a full load on?

I agree. Are we only allowed to do steep turns when empty? We’ve practiced this maneuver ad nauseum since private pilot training; the load shouldn't be an issue.

Good job Gord! Look out for number one, because nobody else in this dog-eat-dog industry is. Congrats and good luck, Joe will get over it.

[Cat Driver]

Yeh, airplane performance numbers are based on the airplane being at gross weight.

So what is the problem with doing steep turns at gross weight?