Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

[DrBoeing]

ratherbee - at least give them a chance.

Unless you are truly happy earning less money than 12 years ago and are willing to fly a Widebody / Heavy Jet, for embarrassingly low wages with obscene working conditions?

All the while every other (unskilled) employee around this nuthouse marches ahead.

Riding on our backs.

Try being an AME in this monkey palace!!!

[777longhaul]

A whole lot - about nothing.

Reminds me of the old joke; "What do you call 50 dead lawyers at the bottom of the Ocean?"

No offence Raymond, you are a Pilot first.

There was previously, no law; now there is, law.

Air Canada will move forward and ACPA will capitulate. Up until now ACPA represented the majority, against a "special interest" group.

Frankly, I think they did an admirable job.

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Stu

PLEASE stop referring to the mystical "majority vote" It never happened. The total amount of acpa pilots who responded, were LESS than the majority of the entire pilot group. Many, could not even be bothered to vote. So, this constant reference to the majority, is just recycled acpa spin bs.

If...acpa is so confident now, why dont they take a new IVR vote, and show us the results? Have you even seen the results of the long ago, specially worded IVR vote? If not, go back several pages on this forum, and you will find a good posting on the actual numbers etc. This on going, costly court case, is driven by a select group in acpa. (age/seniority related).

The courts will tell us soon enough, who is right and who is wrong. If acpa is wrong....they are on the hook, for 50% of what ever, the courts decide. acpa signed off on that one..........at AC request.
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Stu, just for you, i went back and found this posting, showing how many of the total pilots, voted on the spring loaded IVR vote, that has never been redone in years and years.

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accumolus wrote:

The above gives you an inkling of just how far out to lunch the splinter group junior to middling seniority types are who continue their quest to capture the seniority list.

In the original bogus ‘Survey’, 1701, by far the majority of pilots, didn’t vote, or were dead set against these ne'er-do-wells' quest for the Holy Grail.

What’s needed is a legal Petition.

1701 pilots are on the verge of picking up the tab for a bunch of misguided types who intend to use each and every pilot’s fiscal resources to move ahead of, or eliminate those very pilots.

1701 pilots really need to retain the services of a lawyer to look at any and all possible ways of not sharing in the ridiculous load of liability that this splinter group of junior rocket scientists is attempting to unleash on the collective whole.

If the Queue Jumping Squadron wants to live in court, and die in court, let them pay the cost of the funeral in court all by themselves.

1701 pilots need to say enough is enough, and cut the little splinter group loose to sink on its own.

If there is a legal way to not have to share in the huge liability of this grossly misguided undertaking, it should be commenced now because there will need to be enough lead time to get it all in place before the sky falls in on these guys.

1701 innocent bystanders do not need to be there to pick up the pieces.

==============================================================================

Stu, another factoid from accumolus:




Quote:

By the way.....still waiting for the acpa official, IVR "majority of the acpa pilots" survey, that shows that the majority of all the pilots (total amount of pilots represented by acpa)wanted to fight this issue in the first place. Wish someone would post the audited results here, so we can all read it.


In absolute terms it amounted to about 40 percent of the membership voting to take this thing to the wire.

Job 1, touted at around 700 pilots over 5 years. That was often quoted as the general target statistic in retirements short term.

Worst case scenario it should have been possible to delete 700 chairs up the ladder before it all hit the fan and the music stopped.

News flash, Parliament just stopped the orchestra about 4-500 seniority numbers short of the Master Plan, and 200 are queued up in court. So that's out the window. Thinking was never our strong suit. Now we'll see how 'accurate' the 'survey' was.

Zero representation, zero foresight, zero planning. The roughly 40 percent in absolute numbers was ‘parlayed’ in the press from an underwhelming minority into an ‘overwhelming majority’, democratically of course, with all the usual semantics about how the vote was representative in traditional terms. You forgot to vote? Tough. It doesn’t matter how you slice it, in absolute numbers, a minority is dictating the fiscal fortune of everybody else, but hey, that's democracy.

The huge glaring error that was made right out of the gate however, was assuming that a vote can replace individual rights, pretty much the cornerstone of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and when that error was transmitted through every major news publication in the country on Day 1, it likely caught the notice of a lot of very important people.

Of course what it really did was legitimize the earmarking of carte blanche war cash as required from the other 60 percent who either didn’t vote or who were against it. This thing is potentially not possible on the backs of 40 percent.

If it goes against, which is where the signs are all pointing if you have followed the litigation heading into the big downtown Courtrooms, it could effectively wipe out any percentage increase in any new collective agreement, by the time the Executive calls. The only squabbling over the liability you would assume would come from who is really liable – everybody? The 60 percent who didn’t vote for it? Pilots not yet on the property at the time the scheme was drafted? Returning pilots? To get it spread over 3000 pilots likely seemed do-able at the time until you start reading through the volumes of decisions and where they’ve landed on the ledger. 40 percent gets the other 60 percent to fund it? Softens the blow if you can make it stick. If you can’t, you’ve perhaps got yourself a very large mess.

[Stu Pidasso]

DrBoeing:

I feel your pain, this outfit proved they have no interest in moving to “low cost,” the instant they handed out raises to the F/A’s and Agents. Two employee groups that are glaring examples of the disparity between us and our “Major Domestic Competitor.”

The only two groups they want to be low cost are the AME’s and Pilots. Both of which already earn less than the “Major Domestic Competitor.”

Best wishes to your group, if anyone around this insane asylum needs a big raise, it is the AME’s.

777longhaul:

If you don’t believe that the Majority of Pilots wanted (past tense) to hold the line at 60, I am not going to be able to convince you. The voting block is now held by Pilots hired post 2000, within that group there are a few that joined the Airline late in life and are in the “fly till you die” group. The majority is young Pilots, looking for (possibly) a glimmer of hope; they could enjoy the career the previous generation had.

As for the “Poll,” Pilots want to lie around on their apathetic fat backsides and whine about the results. In this case they didn’t have the guts to stand up and be counted; eating alone in FRA is a sad lonely experience.

Maybe on the next ACPA Vote/Poll more Pilots will participate? Meh...not likely, crying and whining is much more our style.

It is an academic argument now, the Law has been changed.

In typical fashion of the Aviation business, the "goal posts" are constantly moving.

[Rockie]

This is encouraging.

The lightbulb is finally starting to show life over at the ..'s forum, but there is still a shocking lack of awareness on the significance of December 15th, 2012. Many are still using the word "if" when talking about the end of mandatory retirement like the law hadn't just changed. This would be a VERY good time for ACPA to say something. Anything at all would be great...really....anything at all.

[Rockie]

Great conversation going on and all that's missing are facts.

Where is ACPA?

ACPA has driven our response to the mandatory retirement issue since the beginning according to their own agenda. They are our representatives and are not only supposed to have their finger on the pulse of what's going on but are supposed to keep the membership informed. Two weeks since the law changed and NOTHING from ACPA...not even an acknowledgement of the fact.

Disgraceful.

[snag]

Welcome back from the holidays Rockie. I see you're back to replying to your own posts. Do you really feel that another 4255 posts of you pounding your fists in the sand on a forum that only you seem to read will change what happens at ACPA? Go outside, get some fresh air, spends some time away from the computer with your family. Things will change, just have some patience. Regardless of my opinion on 60+, your posts just clog up legitimate info from guys like Ray H, that the rest of us at least find interesting to read. Happy New Year.

S.

[Rockie]

Not replying to my own posts, but adding to them as day by day the members flog themselves silly trying to pick their way through this quagmire while the union maintains radio silence. I don't think that's acceptable and neither should anybody else.

If you need Raymond on here to tell you it's not acceptable I would be happy to send him a note asking him to do so.

Maybe you could even tell the union yourself that you expect some tiny little tidbit of information from them about this regardless of how insignificant it is. It would still be better than what we've gotten from them so far, which in case you missed my point is absolutely nothing.

[vic777]

Two weeks since the law changed and NOTHING from ACPA...not even an acknowledgement of the fact.

Disgraceful.

Rockie, it would seem ACPA has been totally defeated on this issue and has no Plan B, nada. This is a total loss for the Pilot group, the big winners are those Pilots in the top 100 as of December first 2012, of course that was the plan all along. ACPA could have gotten so much more, for the junior Pilots, that is the real disgrace.

[Ah_yeah]

Two weeks since the law changed and NOTHING from ACPA...not even an acknowledgement of the fact.

Disgraceful.

Rockie, it would seem ACPA has been totally defeated on this issue and has no Plan B, nada. This is a total loss for the Pilot group, the big winners are those Pilots in the top 100 as of December first 2012, of course that was the plan all along. ACPA could have gotten so much more, for the junior Pilots, that is the real disgrace.

Wow Vic, are you now the champion for the junior pilots ? (insert snorting sound)

[vic777]

Wow Vic, are you now the champion for the junior pilots ? (insert snorting sound)

Nobody is the Champion for the junior Pilot, that's the ACPA way.

(insert rimshot)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... CdVTCDdEwI

[Ah_yeah]

Wow Vic, are you now the champion for the junior pilots ? (insert snorting sound)

Nobody is the Champion for the junior Pilot, that's the ACPA way.

(insert rimshot)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... CdVTCDdEwI

Ah, I get it. Everybody is doing it so wtf eh ? (insert lubricant)

[Rockie]

Going on three weeks and still no acknowledgement from ACPA that Canadian law has changed and mandatory retirement ceases to exist in a little over 11 months. However one of the age60 committee members did just post some unofficial insight into ACPA's thought processes that everyone should read very carefully. We are in big trouble.

Basically we have gone from this:



to this:

[Mig29]

How many times you guys are going to revive this same old topic!!???

I never stops to amaze me how boring your lives must be at home.....and it shows on the line (with exceptions of course) when you fly with some of these die hard "lifers" on a 3-4 day pairing. You got nothing exciting to talk about and generally bring the entire crew down with your attitude (insert 'bitching'), making everyone feel miserable at the end of the day.

But never the less, happy new year "die hards" !! May it bring true happiness and peace in your hearts and make you appreciate what you have but can't see!

[Rockie]

How many times you guys are going to revive this same old topic!!???

Revive it? This issue has never gone away and in fact has taken on even more urgency now that we have a very short time line carved in stone. Are you with Air Canada? Have you been paying attention to what's going on?

I never stops to amaze me how boring your lives must be at home.....and it shows on the line (with exceptions of course) when you fly with some of these die hard "lifers" on a 3-4 day pairing.

Speak for yourself and stop making irrelevant assumptions about other people. You along with everybody else are being sleepwalked into disaster and you don't appear to care.

[Mig29]

Revive it? This issue has never gone away and in fact has taken on even more urgency now that we have a very short time line carved in stone. Are you with Air Canada? Have you been paying attention to what's going on?

I have been paying attention to a minority of you asking to work past 60 (outside of the contractual rights) and now that is implemented by the government what would you like us the majority who got penalized by this ruling do?? Waste more time on this old thread with you people? Or should I express my gratitude and joy that folks will stagnate in seniority even more now? I was against if from the beginning and I still believe it's a bad decision. But some of you are so excited (or more like bored) that now want us to "pay attention" and take some "urgent action" and do exactly WHAT?????

Give it a rest man, as someone said, you got way too much time to write 4000+ post here.

[LeadingEdge]

Its not that they have too much time, its because they don't have a life...

Lotsa anti-union spin on this thread, kinda makes you wonder doesn't it.

I am glad to see that the 60+ crowd is as arrogant as ever.

For all the Junior guys, not every senior type wants this, remember to ask a few questions first.

LE

[777longhaul]

Mig 29

Spoke a few days ago, to a new captain, he was glad that the law has changed, as he doesnt have the 5 years on the widebody, (consecutive 5) to max out on pension. He wants to stay a short time after 60, so that he can improve his pension signifigantly. He is not, retired, and he is not part of the FP60, or fly to you die, or......whatever anyone wants to call it. He is, an active pilot, who now has the right, to decide to stay or go at 60, or what ever age he decides.

LE

Not everyone is arrogant in the FP60 group, some are, some are not, JUST like the group that is under 60. Many, in the FP60, group, are attempting, one way or another, to inform the pilots who are over/under 60, in regards to what is happening, maybe happening, could happen, might not happen.....in regards to the court cases etc. They are just opinions, with factual information being provided by Raymond Hall.

There is zero information from acpa. Have you even heard anything from them about the Feds changing the rules? From the pilots who I have talked to, who are active, (under 60) they have not heard anything from acpa.

If you find it annoying to read the information, good/or bad, why do you bother reading/posting?

All retired pilots are BANNED from the acpf (air canada pilots forum.) So none of us know what others are posting on that site. The information here, is an attempt to help everyone understand the issue(s).

Rocky, is an active pilot, and he has a very good grip on what is happening in this regard. He is junior, and is not close to retirement.

AC is playing acpa, in this issue, (they have been all a long) and they are going to cost acpa in more ways than money, as they drag this out to next year.

There are benefits to be had, by the new hire, junior, middle, and senior pilots, if acpa plays this properly, in this TA-X.
The new hires, and juniors, must get the most, then the middle, and if any is left over, some to the senior pilots. The big concern, is that it will get stolen from all of us, just like AC has done in the past, they are VERY good at it. They know how to play the pilots, and what ever is happening, they just super size it, and dangle the carrot, and we get sucked in every time. Is this going to be another event in AC's FOM growing book, on how to screw us even more????

[Norwegianwood]

Hey Mig, I said it before, your glasses are all fogged up and your hearing impaired by the "4" at your six so here it is one more time.........


The majority does not rule the LAW does so go read the law......................

As of 15 DEC 2012

It`s the LAW

Get it............ naaaaaaw too loud and still fogged up in the bear of little brain

[Mig29]

Mig 29

Spoke a few days ago, to a new captain, he was glad that the law has changed, as he doesnt have the 5 years on the widebody, (consecutive 5) to max out on pension. He wants to stay a short time after 60, so that he can improve his pension signifigantly. He is not, retired, and he is not part of the FP60, or fly to you die, or......whatever anyone wants to call it. He is, an active pilot, who now has the right, to decide to stay or go at 60, or what ever age he decides.

Hey Mig, I said it before, your glasses are all fogged up and your hearing impaired by the "4" at your six so here it is one more time.........


The majority does not rule the LAW does so go read the law......................

As of 15 DEC 2012

It`s the LAW

Get it............ naaaaaaw too loud and still fogged up in the bear of little brain

To both of you guys, yes, I get it completely that it is a LAW now as I stated below! What I don't understand is what would you like the rest of us do now??? Do you want a parade in your honor to be given every Dec. 15th? Or a STAT in your time bank on that day??? Or we need to get educated on it, appreciate from where you are coming from with your stories about shortage of pension age, your 5 kids and 10 wives and give you a pat on the back and say "It's ok that you pushed me down even more years back, and my family at home sends regards to you in support" Is that what you want?

[Ah_yeah]

Careful there longhaul. AC may have plans for any returning pilot that may not be so sweet. You're right, they may just do an about face but I bet it won't put money in your pocket.
Norwegian, you can trumpet THE LAW all you want but let's wait and see what reality delivers. But, go ahead and spend your settlement if it make you feel better.

[Rockie]

deleted

[Rockie]

But some of you are so excited (or more like bored) that now want us to "pay attention" and take some "urgent action" and do exactly WHAT?????

At least 3000 of my 4000 posts that you scoff at have been devoted to telling you what you should do, and this is what I mean by not paying attention. The very first thing you need to do, and what you should have done years ago is start thinking critically.

ACPA led you and most everybody else by the nose to this inescapable place we're in now, and now that the massive liability is closing in your union has clammed up completely leaving the membership to swing in the wind in the wake of a landmark legislative change without so much as a comment let alone guidance. You might have noticed that many of the most staunch defenders of age 60 have finally seen the six year old writing on the wall and are discussing strategies to deal with it. You also might have noticed that not one single word has been said about it by ACPA. TL's unofficial post on the pilot's forum explicitly tells you why. You have been abandoned by your union and they are leaving each and every one of us holding the can.

Myself and many others have spent years (3000+ posts) futilely trying to tell you this day was coming and to manage the inevitable change rather than waste precious resources and time fighting it. Now that it's finally here we are trying to tell you to NOT accept a union that leaves you in the lurch to deal by yourself with the fallout from THEIR policies that YOU blindly followed.

Stuff all those snide comments about getting a life and start managing this thing like a grown up. And DEMAND your union do the same.

[rudder]

Congratulations. You guys get the award for without a doubt being the most dysfunctional and divided pilot group in North America. And you had some seriously dysfunctional competition (think USAirways).

You are handing CR the ultimate gift. I am sure that he has spent many an evening sipping Courvoisier at his luxury ski chalet reading this drivel and calculating how to make it work to his advantage.

The fact that the professional industrial and legal advisors for this group appear incapable or unwilling to explain a realistic range of outcomes to the Executive and membership speaks volumes about the self perpetuating delusional world that has been constructed.

Good luck. You will need it.

[vic777]

Careful there longhaul. AC may have plans for any returning pilot that may not be so sweet.

Why do I think that ACPA would love to see a Pilot get "screwed"?

[Norwegianwood]

Norwegian, you can trumpet THE LAW all you want but let's wait and see what reality delivers.

Your blinkers are firmly in place where acpa has put them! It is not me trumpeting the law, as you have not been able to comprehend, it is Parliament that has passed this law and it will come into effect on Dec 15, 2012 whether you and acpa like it or not. Now, as the ink is dry on that piece of legislation, 'nuf said!!