Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Hey, maybe instead of a college course on "aircraft recognition" these colleges could teach new commercial pilots how to identify shitty operators and avoid them all together. Teach them the subtle ways some scum bag operators pressure new pilots into taking stupid risks. Now that would make the aviation degree a little more credible in the industry.
- Les Habitants
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
And thus goes the problem with CAR 703/704/705. The only reason they are separate divisions with separate regulations is to try and keep the larger aircraft from crashing more often. When a small plane crashes people go "oh well it was an 8 seater? well I never fly those so...that's too bad!" When a Beech 1900 crashes some people go "oh, it was a 19 seater? Well I flew one of those to Churchill the other day...maybe I could be the next dead person!" and when a Boeing 737 goes down...widespread panic.lilflyboy262 wrote:I'm new to the Canadian industry so I cannot comment on the culture here.
BUT, where I was operating in Africa, we had the same issues until we lost a C208.
With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
As heartless as this sounds, use the media attention of this accident to get the big issues that have been discussed, into the lime light.
At the same time, track down the kid that was fired for saying no, get his side of the story and get it out there as well.
Commercial aviation generally becomes safer with every accident as we learn from it and come away understanding just a little more about the chain of events that caused it.
With General Aviation however, we just sweep it under the rug... "oh its just 4 people dead, that's only as bad as a car accident."
This is no acceptable. To the people who are grieving, I am certain that they wouldn't care if it was 4 people or 140 people. They have still lost someone.
Don't let this accident become a statistic.
I like your idea, but everyone is scared of ruining their careers by saying anything. That's why nothing happens. That's why accidents like these continue-because pilot joe gave 10K to operator X to fly their aircraft, and he has family to feed. Operator X says "go here or your fired" and pilot joe is too scared to stand up for himself...besides, nothing usually happens right? So pilot joe goes because he doesn't want to lose his money and jepordize his family. In the mean time, if a former employee tries to speak out, he is threatened with legal action for publicly defaming and slandering Operator X, as this operator has shown in the past they are willing to do.
My best advice? Pilots, if you are working at a place like Operator X...GET OUT OF THERE!!! Right.f***in.now. Find a place that will treat you well (life is so much better when you feel respected anyway). To those that are considering jobs at places like Operator X...don't do it! I know it will suck to be unemployed a bit longer, but what I've found out in my flying career so far is that flying isn't everything. It's just another job. If I had to go work elsewhere, I could find another job I love. Don't pay money up front! And if you do, get some serious protection for yourself and make dam well sure the operator you are entrusting with your money will treat you well and has a good track record.
Doc...you're starting to rub off on me!
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
QUOTED
With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
HOW WOULD THIS BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS BEING A PILOT'S CAREER LIMITING MOVE ?
With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
HOW WOULD THIS BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS BEING A PILOT'S CAREER LIMITING MOVE ?
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Funny you mention that, as I have decided to include something like that in the curriculum of a class I teach in an aviation college program. We even discussed that today in our first class of the semester!HO Driver wrote:Hey, maybe instead of a college course on "aircraft recognition" these colleges could teach new commercial pilots how to identify shitty operators and avoid them all together. Teach them the subtle ways some scum bag operators pressure new pilots into taking stupid risks. Now that would make the aviation degree a little more credible in the industry.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
I think the point is to get at the operator here...not the pilot. The point is to bring to light what is REALLY going on at certain Operator X's. If the public knew, there would be an outcry. There would be a LOT of pressure on TC to finally do something about those operators that are literally bullying younger pilots to their deaths.SKYPILOT1956 wrote:QUOTED
With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
HOW WOULD THIS BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS BEING A PILOT'S CAREER LIMITING MOVE ?
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
That was the thing Cat. The government only reacted because they were at risk of getting egg on their face.
When the people start asking questions of someone higher up the food chain, TC will have to cop some of the flak.
Yes, a few Ben Franklins have kept that African company running, but somewhere like here, that is a little harder to get away with (Not impossible).
You can speak to the media on a condition of anonymity if you are scared of losing your job, in fact, it goes hand in hand with the story. You cannot speak out, out of fear of losing your job. You cannot speak up at work out of fear of losing you job.
You have mouths to feed at home so you take yourself and your passengers/tourists/government ministers out despite the risks, and just hope its not your number that is up today.
The general Joe public loves a good scandal and cover up.
We need to help the younger guys out. Its all well and good saying that they should be taught to say "no!", but do you remember the days where you were out throwing bags in the snow, or cleaning planes and sweeping hangers just praying just to get the chance to get up in the air again?
As a new kid out of flight school who spent the entire time being told how to fly a plane, do you think that you would think it's wise to say no to the gruff old chief pilot who has spent many-a-winter flying off into the mist. If he says it can be done, and he is still around to tell the tale, surely it must be able to be done?!
Giving wide spread exposure to these goings on, showing that they have no way out will make a lot of people ask why, and make TC have to do something.
This is in an ideal world anyway. Like I said, I'm new here and still have the rose tinted glasses on.
Even if nothing happens, isn't it at least better that we tried and failed rather than not tried at all?
When the people start asking questions of someone higher up the food chain, TC will have to cop some of the flak.
Yes, a few Ben Franklins have kept that African company running, but somewhere like here, that is a little harder to get away with (Not impossible).
You can speak to the media on a condition of anonymity if you are scared of losing your job, in fact, it goes hand in hand with the story. You cannot speak out, out of fear of losing your job. You cannot speak up at work out of fear of losing you job.
You have mouths to feed at home so you take yourself and your passengers/tourists/government ministers out despite the risks, and just hope its not your number that is up today.
The general Joe public loves a good scandal and cover up.
We need to help the younger guys out. Its all well and good saying that they should be taught to say "no!", but do you remember the days where you were out throwing bags in the snow, or cleaning planes and sweeping hangers just praying just to get the chance to get up in the air again?
As a new kid out of flight school who spent the entire time being told how to fly a plane, do you think that you would think it's wise to say no to the gruff old chief pilot who has spent many-a-winter flying off into the mist. If he says it can be done, and he is still around to tell the tale, surely it must be able to be done?!
Giving wide spread exposure to these goings on, showing that they have no way out will make a lot of people ask why, and make TC have to do something.
This is in an ideal world anyway. Like I said, I'm new here and still have the rose tinted glasses on.
Even if nothing happens, isn't it at least better that we tried and failed rather than not tried at all?
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
I understand the situation, done a little flying up north myself but if a pilot doesn't have the "judgement" required for the job ( I'm not judging this particular situation as I don't know the facts) then he probably should not be flying there. Big difference for a lower time pilot working in a very controlled enviorment in the south and being on your own in some hole up north.
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
I think that you can assume that most if not all aviation colleges have at least an unofficial practice of steering their graduates away from bad operators. Dealing with pressure from operators is, I am sure, dealt with in the Human Factors courses that are part of these programs.HO Driver wrote:Hey, maybe instead of a college course on "aircraft recognition" these colleges could teach new commercial pilots how to identify shitty operators and avoid them all together. Teach them the subtle ways some scum bag operators pressure new pilots into taking stupid risks. Now that would make the aviation degree a little more credible in the industry.
It would be foolish for a graduate, after having gone to the expense of two years of time and close on to $100,000 to risk a career early on on a violation or an accident. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think its part of the career path of a normal program graduate.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
As I mentioned to another poster in a PM, these students (4th semester of a 2 year program) seem very green, very surprised that I would discuss this and that operators could maintain a business operating this way. I think they are still getting a lot of sunshine followed by smoke blown into their posteriors regarding the sense and sensibilities of our industry. I am trying to do my part to open their eyes to the reality while still maintaining their excitement of the career they are about to embark on...one that is hopefully long and prosperous for all of us!cncpc wrote:I think that you can assume that most if not all aviation colleges have at least an unofficial practice of steering their graduates away from bad operators. Dealing with pressure from operators is, I am sure, dealt with in the Human Factors courses that are part of these programs.HO Driver wrote:Hey, maybe instead of a college course on "aircraft recognition" these colleges could teach new commercial pilots how to identify shitty operators and avoid them all together. Teach them the subtle ways some scum bag operators pressure new pilots into taking stupid risks. Now that would make the aviation degree a little more credible in the industry.
It would be foolish for a graduate, after having gone to the expense of two years of time and close on to $100,000 to risk a career early on on a violation or an accident. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think its part of the career path of a normal program graduate.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Weather Image for Crash plus two hours. Is there a pilot with a 1200Z image ?
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- This is the 1800Z GFA icing and turbulance.
Is there a 1200Z GFA icing out there? - 1800 Latest-gfacn33_turbc_000.jpg (87.69 KiB) Viewed 2884 times
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
QUOTED
So much we don't know, so much speculation
Left YWG 0715 went down in KQ3 at 1000..... 2h45??? 90kt groundspeed?
Some residents say there were blizzard conditions and couldn't see in front of their faces. A resident says they saw the plane make a sharp bank. One resident says it was so bad they found the plane because they followed the black smoke. Another said they could see the accident from their house. Residents claim they heard the plane make "put put" noises........
Huh?
RIP
So much we don't know, so much speculation
Left YWG 0715 went down in KQ3 at 1000..... 2h45??? 90kt groundspeed?
Some residents say there were blizzard conditions and couldn't see in front of their faces. A resident says they saw the plane make a sharp bank. One resident says it was so bad they found the plane because they followed the black smoke. Another said they could see the accident from their house. Residents claim they heard the plane make "put put" noises........
Huh?
RIP
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- The probable KQ3 approach path as discribed by the residents
- CKQ3 KEE213 January 2012.jpg (162.7 KiB) Viewed 2900 times
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Well done, then. Green students come from green instructors.cdnpilot77 wrote:As I mentioned to another poster in a PM, these students (4th semester of a 2 year program) seem very green, very surprised that I would discuss this and that operators could maintain a business operating this way. I think they are still getting a lot of sunshine followed by smoke blown into their posteriors regarding the sense and sensibilities of our industry. I am trying to do my part to open their eyes to the reality while still maintaining their excitement of the career they are about to embark on...one that is hopefully long and prosperous for all of us!
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
QUOTED
Sadly nothing new here. I remember the Dubin report back in the '80s -- I actually have a copy somewhere.
TC and the operators do not learn from history --and repeat it.
Reports, Reports, Reports to the Regulators
Dubin, Dryden(100), SATOPS(703), Sandy Lake(748), Tayfel(31), North Spirit(31)
Sadly nothing new here. I remember the Dubin report back in the '80s -- I actually have a copy somewhere.
TC and the operators do not learn from history --and repeat it.
Reports, Reports, Reports to the Regulators
Dubin, Dryden(100), SATOPS(703), Sandy Lake(748), Tayfel(31), North Spirit(31)
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Dubin RAeSLecture_JudicialRolesE.pdf
- Dubin would never has believed SMS would solve the industry
- (386.82 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
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SATOPS tp13158.pdf
- SATOPS was introduced as Tayfel's defence strategy.
- (226.47 KiB) Downloaded 121 times
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
The basis for investing in instrument approaches and weather services should still basically be the size of the community. Not to prevent accidents. It's like spending money on essentially developing new minima to ignore.
I'd like to reply to the comment about the differences between 703/704/705 ops. It was a little glib. The various standards were developed to try to match the equipment and personnel to the level of risk.
A pilot flying a Navajo VFR to an uncontrolled airport does not experience the same workload or operational obstacles as a 777 doing trans-Atlantic flights so why would you impose the same equipage and operational standards?
Same with a float equipped Beaver flying commercially on the west coast. The standards impose some pretty restrictive limitations in order to suit the type of flying to the airplane. Lumping everyone into the same standards would mean putting flight recorders, TCAS, TAWS, weather radar, emergency power supplies and third Artificial Horizons, autopilots, flight directors, moving map displays, ADS-B, CPDLC, HF etc etc etc into a Beaver on floats. Not only would you not be able to carry passengers with all that extra weight, you'd still be a VFR airplane!
I'd like to reply to the comment about the differences between 703/704/705 ops. It was a little glib. The various standards were developed to try to match the equipment and personnel to the level of risk.
A pilot flying a Navajo VFR to an uncontrolled airport does not experience the same workload or operational obstacles as a 777 doing trans-Atlantic flights so why would you impose the same equipage and operational standards?
Same with a float equipped Beaver flying commercially on the west coast. The standards impose some pretty restrictive limitations in order to suit the type of flying to the airplane. Lumping everyone into the same standards would mean putting flight recorders, TCAS, TAWS, weather radar, emergency power supplies and third Artificial Horizons, autopilots, flight directors, moving map displays, ADS-B, CPDLC, HF etc etc etc into a Beaver on floats. Not only would you not be able to carry passengers with all that extra weight, you'd still be a VFR airplane!
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Questions. North Spirit Lake is a certified aerodrome owned/operated by Govt of Ontario, it is 3500ft long with rwy threshold and edge lighting along with AP each side with ARCAL. An ideal candidate for RNAV (GNSS) IAPs both sides be it RCAP or CAP published. Also being certified, more than likely to non-precision runway visual surfaces which would have permitted HAT 250ft which would again, be ideal. One would think an Instrument Procedure would be an essential requirement for such a remote community that depends upon air service. It wouldn’t be hard to do, not a complicated design, very straight forward. There are third party design companies who could do such design and be sponsored by the community and Govt of Ontario. Furthermore, I am surprised operators couldn’t see this and put pressure on powers to be to have a published IAP and an altimeter source.
Although my documents(CAP,RCAP,CFS) are not the latest, I haven't seen anything related to IAPs for this site. Furthermore, this isn't to suggest this accident is a result of not having published procedures.
Although my documents(CAP,RCAP,CFS) are not the latest, I haven't seen anything related to IAPs for this site. Furthermore, this isn't to suggest this accident is a result of not having published procedures.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Just last week I watched a pilot land at a northern airport after flying 'VFR' to get to that airport. There is absolutely no way he could have been 'VFR' at all times during his flight...no way no how.
VFR operations in northern Canada is a joke. Everyone knows the operators go 'VFR' because its easier and most of all cheaper.
If anyone thinks I am wrong they are delusional.
Did this pilot fly to KQ3 VFR OR IFR ?
Why only one pilot ?
Was there an auto pilot and was it working?
Did he have IFR FUEL.
Had he ever been to KQ3 before?
How did he plan to approach KQ3?
-using some kind of IFR approach or did expect to be 'VFR'?
AND the biggest question of all
Did the management know what this pilot was planning to do?
-did they care?
Are we again, just going to blame the pilot ??????
VFR operations in northern Canada is a joke. Everyone knows the operators go 'VFR' because its easier and most of all cheaper.
If anyone thinks I am wrong they are delusional.
Did this pilot fly to KQ3 VFR OR IFR ?
Why only one pilot ?
Was there an auto pilot and was it working?
Did he have IFR FUEL.
Had he ever been to KQ3 before?
How did he plan to approach KQ3?
-using some kind of IFR approach or did expect to be 'VFR'?
AND the biggest question of all
Did the management know what this pilot was planning to do?
-did they care?
Are we again, just going to blame the pilot ??????
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Up north, down south makes no difference...a lack of experience and a boss that makes themselves out to be eight feet tall when you go to them with a concern does. If the guy that hired you is making it sound like your career hangs in the balance of wether or not you do a trip, then you're better off somewhere else. Easier said than done I know, but it's just not worth it.I understand the situation, done a little flying up north myself but if a pilot doesn't have the "judgement" required for the job ( I'm not judging this particular situation as I don't know the facts) then he probably should not be flying there. Big difference for a lower time pilot working in a very controlled enviorment in the south and being on your own in some hole up north.
Single pilot IFR in Northern MB/ON is some challenging sh*t and a healthy respect for the weather as well as your own limitations goes a long way.
Living in some "hole" (as robertsailor put it) building time is some of the best flying a pilot will ever do. The experience one takes away from that will serve him/her for the rest of their career.
I did not know the pilot involved or the circumstances leading up to what happened, but my condolences and genuine sympathies go out to him and his family.
Stay safe out there.
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
Was the auto-pilot working ?
The last crash that company had with a similar aircraft.The particular city crash aircraft was released for flight without an auto-pilot.Was this recent crashed aircraft in a similar state of non-compliance of the fit for purpose principle.Was this aircraft dispatched in a fit for purpose state in compliance with all the CARS?
When the company sets the example that rules are easily ignored and compliance with the CARS is optional to their operations.Something to do with corporate culture.
Grief might just be the result.
I remember flying Martha Campbell out of CKQ3 years ago the thought of her screaming while being burned to death is making me cry.So i will have to stop thinking about this for a while.
Just remember folks when you do your PAX briefing that the PAX KNOW HOW TO GET OUT.As they may be rescuing your sorry ass.
The last crash that company had with a similar aircraft.The particular city crash aircraft was released for flight without an auto-pilot.Was this recent crashed aircraft in a similar state of non-compliance of the fit for purpose principle.Was this aircraft dispatched in a fit for purpose state in compliance with all the CARS?
When the company sets the example that rules are easily ignored and compliance with the CARS is optional to their operations.Something to do with corporate culture.
Grief might just be the result.
I remember flying Martha Campbell out of CKQ3 years ago the thought of her screaming while being burned to death is making me cry.So i will have to stop thinking about this for a while.
Just remember folks when you do your PAX briefing that the PAX KNOW HOW TO GET OUT.As they may be rescuing your sorry ass.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
North Spirit Lake was a tragedy, no matter what the root cause was.employerofchoice wrote:My deepest condolences to the families, it is a tragic loss no one should have to experience.
I am afraid that Cat Driver, Doc and many other old-timers who are cynical and pessimistic and pretty much bang on about the employer of choice, the regulator. A colleague, mentor and friend told me a couple of years ago that with the mass exodus of hard working and caring folks that have left because of so much discontent, we have no one with balls left in the building when it comes to the front line managers. Matter of fact, managers positions have been discarded and replaced with a very few newly created positions that have been filled with wannabe brown-nosing non expert in anything losers. I have seen the organization slip into chaos and now the fox is guarding the hen house. To correct some of the comments here I would like to say that nothing will likely come of this and those that said the pilot will wear the blame are likely very correct with their assumption. The company as far as SMS is concerned was forced after the last accident to follow SMS to maintain operations. That went away quite a while ago when the regulator realized it was too much of a headache and rescinded the order. The company right now is not SMS and so there is no accountable executive or the likes, so much like the last accident the core management will not wear any blame in the end. As I watch the last couple of days unfold, it is like past recent accidents where the only real concern is that the regulator is not accountable in any way.
Merlin P started this mess and now publicly denounces the new way of business to the world. Hypocrisy at it's best. The folks that really care about doing a great job and not wanting to ever read about these accidents are hamstrung, tied to the chair and gagged. The minister only hears the watered down version and will never hear what the grunts have to say. I truly hope that someone somewhere will finally wake up and realize that all these new programs will only work when there is sufficient manpower to deal with them. Cutbacks and reorganization is taking the regulator back to Cranbrook days and an inquiry that found a lack of subject matter experts didn't exist was contributing to the increase in accidents. They are headed right back there. Yes this is my first post, and no I'm not crazy. I just feel horrible about what happened and had to say something.
There will be accidents as long as there is a human input but I truly believe that just maybe some of them could have been adverted if there was a teacher standing nearby with the yardstick watching over the class.
I've heard rumours about the current conditions at TC and have sympathy for all the inspectors who still work there trying to do their job under ever more challenging(to say the least) conditions. Sure, when they showed up for a base audit it was a sweat inducer, but it sure helped us keep focussed on maintaining a safer operation. TC needs more, aviation background, trained people who know what they are doing, not " wannabe brown-nosing non expert in anything losers" if we want to help prevent accidents like this from recurring.
Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
By being written by someone who's livlihood is not being a Pilot. Food for thought......SKYPILOT1956 wrote:QUOTED
With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
HOW WOULD THIS BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS BEING A PILOT'S CAREER LIMITING MOVE ?
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
As was predicted, Riopka stands behind the cloak of "but we implemented an SMS program"...Im too angry to post right now. Any further contribution at this point would be pure emotion and of no use to anyone.
This ^ post did remind me that I would ask one of the mods to please edit the title of this thread to (4 dead 1 injured) from 5 dead as was the original report. It may seem like a small detail but one that I feel should be addressed correctly. Thank you.
Fly safe all.

This ^ post did remind me that I would ask one of the mods to please edit the title of this thread to (4 dead 1 injured) from 5 dead as was the original report. It may seem like a small detail but one that I feel should be addressed correctly. Thank you.
Fly safe all.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
GR says it is "grossly unfair" to be criticizing their safety record! Seriously???! Name one other operator that has CRASHED 3 PA31"s with fatalities in two of the three CRASHES over the span of a decade? Besides, from what I recall the weather was rather poor in the first two CRASHES, and in my opinion sheer luck that more lives weren't lost.
That said, a tragic occurrence none the less and my thoughts are with family and friends of the victims.
That said, a tragic occurrence none the less and my thoughts are with family and friends of the victims.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (5 dead)
CADORS Report:
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=