Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[snoopy]

I don't remember...is Spirit in the RCAP?

Sad but I can see it now...'...CFIT, continued below mins in whiteout conditions.'

No RCAP for North Spirit Lake - that's one of the first things I checked when I heard about the accident because I didn't think there was one.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[snoopy]

Has anybody else heard that the pilot had to circle waiting for the plow to finish clearing the runway? Heard that he was told by the plow guy that it might be 10 minutes before the runway was usable. Story goes that the pilot made a second "more urgent" call saying he needed to land rightaway. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just heard this story going around in certain circles.

This is a very interesting comment - what information are you basing it on?

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Doc]

The subject on mind and my co-workers minds has finally come up.
And if it's accurate, then this is probably an honest mistake a lot of us have made.
We were out flying that morning, if I remember correctly the altimiter in Winnipeg was roughly the high 29.7's
The altimeter in Big Trout, Sandy, Red, Norway etc were low 29.5's.
Looks a LOT like an OBS approach, cudos to him for flying it perfectly on the center line. And he believed he was 250 feet up.
Could the altimiter survive a fire?

He would have been given a local altimeter setting by centre on descent. Probably Red Lake's. OBS approaches into airports without a published approach is probably what killed him? Kudos to him for being on the centre line??? For real? If he believed he was at 250 feet, he was about 2600 feet BELOW his LEGAL LIMIT........which is SECTOR altitude at a VFR only airport, when flying IFR!!
Frankly I wouldn't be handing out the Kudos here. I'm a little disappointed that you are. This stops being fun and games when pilots do illegal and dangerous things in airplanes. I don't think an altimeter setting being off by that much would have been a contributing factor?
You fly safe.

[flyinthebug]

All this talk about a radio altimeter is pointless. You don't need a radio altimeter to land at a strictly VFR airport. The more relevant question is if the airplane was equipped with a GPS navigator that the pilot used to set up his own instrument approach. How else could he have been perfectly lined up with a runway that he apparently couldn't see? Another good question relates to what kind of GPS navigator was installed and whether or not he had any sort of TAWS with a terrain display that would haver emboldened his decision to apparently conduct an approach and landing to a VFR airport in IMC.

Radio altimeters are definitely a "nice to have" for IFR approaches but there really is no role for one in VFR flight.

+1!!

I somehow missed your post CID. This is one of the best posts in this thread thus far. Very decisive questions that are screaming for answers.

[Doc]

That bloody great big, tall "KILL STICK" to the south west of the community of North Spirit would deter me from anything but a published approach!

[SnotRocket]

Has anybody else heard that the pilot had to circle waiting for the plow to finish clearing the runway? Heard that he was told by the plow guy that it might be 10 minutes before the runway was usable. Story goes that the pilot made a second "more urgent" call saying he needed to land rightaway. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just heard this story going around in certain circles.

Hopefully the survivor will talk to the media and give an account.

[Doc]

Has anybody else heard that the pilot had to circle waiting for the plow to finish clearing the runway? Heard that he was told by the plow guy that it might be 10 minutes before the runway was usable. Story goes that the pilot made a second "more urgent" call saying he needed to land rightaway. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just heard this story going around in certain circles.

Hopefully the survivor will talk to the media and give an account.

SnotRocket....Gawd I love that handle! Don't expect to get much out of the survivor. Facts at least.

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

I don't believe he'd be high enough to have spoken with center when beginning descent. Also Pete Hildebrand said the last time he spoke with any controller was when leaving Winnipeg control zone.
The weather in Wpg was VFR when he left.
just a theory.
Do we know for sure he was IFR?
Did his 'Ho have autopilot?
If not, then he was required to have a co-pilot.
Which he did not.
I'm guessing not IFR.

[Donald]

What's the highest obstacle within 5nm of the airport?

[old_man]

Something strikes me as odd. He crashed on the lake. The lake has to be at a lower altitude than the airport (or there would be a lot of flooding). So he descended below the altitude of the airport. I can only hope it was unwillingly and not unknowingly or willingly. Even on a made up approach someone wouldn't choose to descend below the altitude of the airport.....right?

[Salt]

He could have been VFR at some point on the "approach", descended low, ended up over the lake in white out and kept the mark 1 eye ball outside. All it would have taken would be a gradual rate of descent, hence why the plane was not completely totalled on impact.

[grimey]

SnotRocket....Gawd I love that handle! Don't expect to get much out of the survivor. Facts at least.

Depends on what you ask. If you ask him if the guy invented his own approach, or anything that requires him to analyse info, then no, you probably won't get anything useful. If you ask him if it was snowing, if he could see the ground, if the pilot said anything prior to the crash, you might get something useful. Just don't expect him to replace an FDR in any way.

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

So he descended below the altitude of the airport. I can only hope it was unwillingly and not unknowingly or willingly. Even on a made up approach someone wouldn't choose to descend below the altitude of the airport.....right?

unless they had the wrong alt. setting.
Just sayin'.

[grimey]

He could have been VFR at some point on the "approach", descended low, ended up over the lake in white out and kept the mark 1 eye ball outside. All it would have taken would be a gradual rate of descent, hence why the plane was not completely totalled on impact.

Nearest altimeter setting would be from what, Red Lake? With that front moving through the area and causing all the wx in the first place, it's hard to imagine him not having the wrong setting. If he intended to fly the GPS to the threshold, it might not have mattered where he was looking.

[cncpc]

Something strikes me as odd. He crashed on the lake. The lake has to be at a lower altitude than the airport (or there would be a lot of flooding). So he descended below the altitude of the airport. I can only hope it was unwillingly and not unknowingly or willingly. Even on a made up approach someone wouldn't choose to descend below the altitude of the airport.....right?

The airport is twenty feet higher at its highest point and four feet higher at its lowest.

[Doc]

edited....I'm tired of the go-round

[Doc]

I don't believe he'd be high enough to have spoken with center when beginning descent. Also Pete Hildebrand said the last time he spoke with any controller was when leaving Winnipeg control zone.

Did the TC mouthpiece state whether or not he was on a IFR flight plan? This would be a matter of record. He either filed IFR, or he didn't. It's a simple as that. I can't imagine flying from Winnipeg to North Spirit VFR the entire way that day.

Another quick edit.

[2R]

He could have been VFR at some point on the "approach", descended low, ended up over the lake in white out and kept the mark 1 eye ball outside. All it would have taken would be a gradual rate of descent, hence why the plane was not completely totalled on impact.

Nearest altimeter setting would be from what, Red Lake? With that front moving through the area and causing all the wx in the first place, it's hard to imagine him not having the wrong setting. If he intended to fly the GPS to the threshold, it might not have mattered where he was looking.

Nearest Altimeter would be from Sandy Lake LWIS 38 nm north west of North Spirit.

[AUGER9]

Why are people so hung up about the altimeter? If he was IFR he shouldn't have been any lower than about 2800' (that'd be quite the altimeter error!). If he was VFR he should've had the airport and ground in sight by that point anyways.

[126.75]

First of all, while I only met the pilot a few times, may he RIP and the following is just me venting about the state of this industry.

Doc, I read your comments before you edited them and still feel I should comment.

You are either naive or not willing to discuss what actually happened. You and I (and let's face it "most" pilots) know what goes on up there. Have you ever heard a plane leave VFR out of an airport (let's use Red Lake or Sioux Lookout as examples) then fly a decent distance and make a position report at 3500 feet and then somehow get in to an airport where the ceilings are at 500 feet? Most of us have seen it happen. The fact of the matter is I have heard some people start to be okay with OBS'ing the centre line and then beginning a 3:1 decent down to the field elevation (without a radar altimeter even). We will call these pilots "stuntmen".

What happens is these stuntmen end up breaking out on slope/centre line and then they say "wow" look at this it works every time. They ignore the fact it is illegal and UNSAFE and they do this more often. People flying out of YRL, YXL or where ever end up not having major altimeter setting errors due to a) luck and b) close distance between an altimeter setting source. This practice now becomes a SOP for company A.

Now let's factor in a 'ho that is flying from YWG and has to cover an even further distance. They end up flying into an area of lower pressure (which they don't consider - lack of training, etc. is an entirely different topic) and the Swiss cheese holes start to line up. Add in freezing rain and the knowledge that your chief pilot does not want you to end up at your alternate (providing you have IFR fuel), things get mighty interesting. What will save them at this point? Well perhaps a few things could be lined up to help him at this point of note: flying IFR and respecting the instrument 'flight rules', radalt, VFR weather or anything else that could possible give him a wake up call. None of these layers block this from happening. There are countless ways that this could have been halted but the holes lined up and you could end up with a crash.

I do not know for sure if this is what happened here. All I know is that it does and instead of putting your head in the stand regarding this issue stating "how could this ever happen?" why do we not try and educate the low hour pilots who are flying these 'claped out old 'hos? This IS NOT an acceptable practice. The fact more people have not killed themselves and their passengers is surprising really.

Interesting to note is you see that the people that are more often pushed to fly in the sh!t weather, planes that are broken (or both) are often the less experienced crews with less to draw upon. Perhaps it's because the more experienced crews have already said no, or they have already moved on to a twin turbo prop gig by the time they gain the gonad's to say FUC% OFF! to their boss.

I started off this industry low in experience and I learned lots the "hard" way. At no time was it feeling pressured to fly. I always was able to say no, but sometimes at 500 hours or so you get surprised by a "Tempo or a Prob". You do not think of how unstable an airmass is until your destination is reporting variable 30G40KTS and +TS even if nothing is on the TAF or just isolated on the GFA. I never was scared to call my CP or flight follower and tell them I am/I have diverted to x airport to wait out the weather. Because of that culture I was able to "learn" but not scare the crap out of myself.

To send a former instructor with 150hours of "IFR" into that type of situation is asking for trouble. Especially if he wants to impress the new bosses and already knows at this company you "don't miss".

It will be interesting to see what comes of this all.

Doc, I know you hate the idea of a College. Honest question, if this group provided mentoring to help young pilots know what is right, what is wrong and if things are wrong what the proper avenues to correct the situation are would you support it? If not how do you suggest we implement a system to help steer the new guys down the right track, god only knows what we are doing now is not working.

[Doc]

Why are people so hung up about the altimeter? If he was IFR he shouldn't have been any lower than about 2800' (that'd be quite the altimeter error!). If he was VFR he should've had the airport and ground in sight by that point anyways.

After the altimeter setting being a suspect in the Lockhart Air accident at Cat Lake, everybody seems to be jumping on the altimeter setting band wagon. You are CORRECT!! The altimeter setting would have NOTHING to do with this accident.

[126.75]

Why are people so hung up about the altimeter? If he was IFR he shouldn't have been any lower than about 2800' (that'd be quite the altimeter error!). If he was VFR he should've had the airport and ground in sight by that point anyways.

In case you don't want to read my wall of text the reason the altimeter is such a big deal is that some operators will do a "Bull Sh!t ILS" set up on a final and then commence a 3:1 decent using the GPS distance and the OBS'ed centre line. I have seen some planes break out literally at "ILS" minimums at VFR airports that I have been holding at all day and have seen the last several airplanes miss without even seeing them. If you do not have a RADALT and you have your altimeter set too high you could be lower than you want to be and could land short of the runway.

Edit: To Vs Too

[Doc]

Doc, I know you hate the idea of a College. Honest question, if this group provided mentoring to help young pilots know what is right, what is wrong and if things are wrong what the proper avenues to correct the situation are would you support it? If not how do you suggest we implement a system to help steer the new guys down the right track, god only knows what we are doing now is not working.

I think the "college" has a thread of it's own? That said, your entire posts speaks to company culture, and working conditions.....subjects the "college" is quite clear in their intentions not to become involved in the subject. My last comment about the subject on this thread. You're way too hung up on altimeter settings......if you can actually SEE the ground, as is a REQUIREMENT for VFR BTW, it becomes a mute point.

[AUGER9]

Why are people so hung up about the altimeter? If he was IFR he shouldn't have been any lower than about 2800' (that'd be quite the altimeter error!). If he was VFR he should've had the airport and ground in sight by that point anyways.

In case you don't want to read my wall of text the reason the altimeter is such a big deal is that some operators will do a "Bull Sh!t ILS" set up on a final and then commence a 3:1 decent using the GPS distance and the OBS'ed centre line. I have seen some planes break out literally at "ILS" minimums at VFR airports that I have been holding at all day and have seen the last several airplanes miss without even seeing them. If you do not have a RADALT and you have your altimeter set too high you could be lower than you want to be and could land short of the runway.

To Vs Too

I understand what you're saying. But no IFR aircraft should be doing this at North Spirit in the first place. That's the problem, not the altimeter.

[Doc]

some operators will do a "Bull Sh!t ILS" set up on a final and then commence a 3:1 decent using the GPS distance and the OBS'ed centre line.
To Vs Too

Which is totally illegal and unsafe. "Some operators' should have their OC's pulled. There are dead pilots/passenger all over the north because of nonsense just like this.