Are you AME out there sick of bad wages

[hoptwoit]

I can’t quite figure out figure out what you are for Gli77. Do you want to be a regulated trade or not make up you mind. One minute you’re ready to sound the charge and the next fold up you tent and go home. I will once again endeavor to inform you of a few facts that seem to escape you.

There seems to be a lot of titles and things in quotation marks and with respect to wages I dont think any of it makes a difference, or will make a difference.

have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much.

As someone who must work within such a highly regulated industry as aviation. one would think that you could grasp the importance of the definitions associated with a title or word. CARs thinks it so important that there is a section dedicated to it CARs 1.1 Interpretation.

The reason that the AME is technically classed as semi skilled is because there is no recognized apprenticeship and no certification. What we are talking about here is to include the AME as a Trade under the Apprenticeship, Trade and Occupation Certification Act.
1) If this happens then the apprentice time is recognized and certified.
2) The applicable trade board would be responsible to administrate the contract between the employer and the employee.
3) The wages of an apprentice would be regulated based on the progress of the apprentice and calculated as a percentage of the journeyman rate for that shop.
4) The apprentice to AME ratio would be regulated.
5) As a recognized trade the skills you have attained as an AME are recognized by other trades. I.e. An journeyman Automotive mechanic is automatically credited 2 years and 2 out 4 modules toward obtaining a Heavy Duty Technician journeyman status.

This is not my opinion. If you voted yes in this poll these would be requirements under the law.
If you took the time to look at a certified trade as I asked you would already know this and when Norskman asked his question you may have something more informed to say rather than” LOL” and “I have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much”. Surely you must realize that an outsider would see these statements as a lackluster attitude towards propelling the profession of AME forward as a trade. If you do want to move AMEs forward help us consistently. You posted on other sites about this poll which is great, but the first question asked on the topic you throw you’re hands up in the air. What is sought as the goal here, is to include the AME as a recognized certified trade under the “Apprenticeship, Trade and Occupation Certification Act”. If the AME is to be included as a trade under this act it must work within the framework of the Act. If you want to get an idea of what the resulting AME trade would look like, view a trade currently regulated by this act like an Automotive Mechanic. That is why I suggested you look it up.

Because hoptwoit I dont think the regulation of apprentice wages is a good idea therefore I don't see why I would research someone elses idea. I will state an opinion, explain my opinion, listen to your opinion and support it or not, but not research your opinion.

Once again this is not my opinion it would be the law and is the framework under which we would be regulated. This being the case do you wish to change you vote?
_________________
Is there anything on that remote control lower than mute?

[gli77]

Yes I admit I was somewhat confused by what exactly we were discussing. I was under the impression that a licenced AME was classified as an unskilled labourer. I thought the poll was to have a licenced AME recognized as a skilled labourer. I did not understand that the topic was actually geared towards the apprenticeship requirements. Of course I was under this impression because the question was :

"Would you be willing to petition the appropriate government body for change to the "unskilled" status given to AME's/apprentices?"

My reference to the listing of many titles and things in quotation marks was that we all seem to be a bit confused, except of course for you hoptwoit.

I did some searching starting with Norskman's links, which all seems to indicate that a licenced AME is a skilled trade. Branching out from that I looked at the apprentice end and found

http://tradeability.ca/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=3382

Which starts off as : "Aircraft Maintenance Engineer
Apprenticeship and Certification Act Unrestricted Trade"

Not sure what Unrestricted Trade actually means. Anyone? I do see that we are classified under the Apprenticeship and Certification Act, so please expand on what you are refering to hoptwoit?? You want to change from "unrestricted trade" to "restricted trade"?

I looked up what trade is a "restricted trade" and found that motorcycle mechanics, truck and coach technician's, automotive technicians, and hair stylists are all classified as restricted trades.

I also looked up "unrestricted trades" and found that cabinet maker, marine engine mechanic, baker, heavy duty equipment technician, industrial electrician, welder and aircraft maintenance engineer are "unrestricted trades". Some of these trades are often cited as being far better off then AME's yet we share the same classification. I tend to think it is a grass is greener scenario.

Almost all of these trades had associations, bureaus, and councils associated with them.

I will clarify for you hoptwoit where I stand on this ongoing debate since you seem concerned. To deal with today I think each of us should face reality. If you are not happy with your job, your location, your pay cheque, your boss, or future then make a change to get to where you want to be. It can be done. The industry is a tough one, there is no debating that, but there is a wide spectrum in Canadian aviation for operations, locations, and wages. If you have spent 15 years at the lower end and are bitter or pissed off, no one to blame but yourself.

To deal with tomorrow in aviation I think that regulating who can work in aircraft maintenance is the first step. If that means changing the apprenticeship requirements then I am for it. As I see it we have a title, we have a licence, we have a regulations act and numerous associations and councils yet here we are. If becoming a "restricted trade" is going to bring sunny days then I am for it. At the moment the big weakness I see is that anyone can work on an aircraft and I do not think that has anything to do with the Apprenticeship and Certification Act, as it appears that we are listed there already, albeit "unrestricted"

[trumpfan]

I find wages in AB an BC are starting to go up, the comany I work for just did a pay rise to match what most of the industrial trades, oil field, electonics trades are paying. Appr. wages match what a HD mech would make to start at Finning about 17.00 to 18.00 an hour and top rung M1/M2 is about 34.00. We were just losing too many (skilled) people to oil rigs, hyd shops, and various other industrial skilled trades in boomland AB.

Trust me aircraft don't fly if nobody works on them.

This was happening in 2000ish too until sept 11 came, It's coming but its a long time coming.

[Norskman]

I did some searching starting with Norskman's links, which all seems to indicate that a licenced AME is a skilled trade. Branching out from that I looked at the apprentice end and found

http://tradeability.ca/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=3382

Which starts off as : "Aircraft Maintenance Engineer
Apprenticeship and Certification Act Unrestricted Trade"

Not sure what Unrestricted Trade actually means.

Definitions:
http://tradeability.ca/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=3448

Electrician — Construction & Maintenance
Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act
Compulsory Trade
Compulsory Trades: are those trades which only an apprentice or a certified journeyperson may practice.

Automotive Service Technician
Apprenticeship and Certification Act
Restricted Trade
Restricted Trade: may only be practiced by certified journeypersons or registered apprentices. Students may not perform any restricted skill set until they become a registered apprentice.

Either of these would work I believe.

Aircraft Maintenance Engineer
Apprenticeship and Certification Act
Unrestricted Trade
Unrestricted Trade: may be practiced without entering into a formal apprenticeship or earning a Certificate of Qualification.

This is not good.

[Pat Richard]

WOW, there it is .

A little freakin scary.

Good to hear though, that the industry is losing (skilled)people like it is(I've also witnessed it).
It deserves it, and I could'nt be happier it's happening . Could'nt happen to a nicer industry....

I hope, that with this demand, people who have historically had their heads firmly stuck up there asses will finally come around and demand more, both in wages and recognition.

[gli77]

I am seeing two angles on the wage topic here.

On the one hand everyone says that heavy equipment mechanics, welders and industrial elect's make great money, but they are classed the same as us - unrestricted. It appears from some posts on here that wages are starting to creep up because of the supply and demand concept. Big boom in Alberta causing people to migrate there. One could argue what happens if that boom becomes a bust?

On the other hand many say that auto mechanics and electricans make great money and this is because they are classed as a restricted trade. One could argue that to become an AME you have to meet the qualifications and experience layed out by TC and then you become a licenced AME which is already regulated. In other words an AME starting to end point is different than that of an auto mechanic but the industry is heavily regulated and wages are not the concern of TC.

While I certainly like what I read with regards to the definition of restriced trade I can't help but notice that a hair stylist is a restricted trade and a heavy equipment mechanic is an unrestricted trade. If what I read on this forum is correct unrestricted heavy equipment mech's are paid well, and while I am not certain, I don't think that restricted hair stylist's are making $80,000/year.

Absolutley I am for increasing the standards of the trade but I am not sure that this will cause wages to go up. I would like to think that it would, but I can't help but think that it currently requires a licenced AME to release an aircraft as airworthy. To get to that stage he/she has completed an approved/acceptable training course, completed an unrestricted trade apprenticship, completed TC exams been granted a licence, most likely completed a type course and yet in some areas of the industry the wages are low and in some the wages are high.

While I can see it from both angles I am thinking that pushing to increase the standards of the industry should be motivated because we see ourselves as being worthy of the restricted trade classification. Doing it on the premise that wages will rise could be a fallacy when taking into account the current status of the industry. I really have no idea what other trades make so I did some searching and came up with this site:

http://www.skillswork.com/students/whatisforyou.html

I am thinking that the numbers on that site are low but even if you double them I am not seeing the green pastures that are often preached. Does anyone have some different numbers? It has been posted on this forum of companies rates being $30-$32/hour for full time work. That is $60 000 to $64 000/year. With a little over time or something on the side you can easily add another $10 000 to that. Are restricted trades doing better than that?

[Norskman]

On the one hand everyone says that heavy equipment mechanics, welders and industrial elect's make great money, but they are classed the same as us - unrestricted.

I think the occupations you quoted have a lot of demand, but have a slow increase in the available labour force. They get paid well since the items they work on most likely make the companies TONS of cash.

One could argue that to become an AME you have to meet the qualifications and experience layed out by TC and then you become a licenced AME which is already regulated. In other words an AME starting to end point is different than that of an auto mechanic but the industry is heavily regulated and wages are not the concern of TC.
...
...it currently requires a licenced AME to release an aircraft as airworthy. To get to that stage he/she has completed an approved/acceptable training course, completed an unrestricted trade apprenticship, completed TC exams been granted a licence, most likely completed a type course...

"Workers" can do the actual work, but only the person who has the AME licence needs to sign the papers. Why pay for 4 AMEs for $x.xx, when you can hire 2 - 3 workers for the same cost as 1 AME?

While I certainly like what I read with regards to the definition of restriced trade I can't help but notice that a hair stylist is a restricted trade and a heavy equipment mechanic is an unrestricted trade.

Hair stylists don't lift heavy objects? I have no idea.

[Pat Richard]

Im just greedy....

[gli77]

LOL,

Which is probably for the best.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

"Workers" can do the actual work, but only the person who has the AME licence needs to sign the papers. Why pay for 4 AMEs for $x.xx, when you can hire 2 - 3 workers for the same cost as 1 AME?

Welcome to why CAMC needs to die. I have no respect in this industry for anyone who seeks membership with them, certification with them, or employment with them. Some emloyers will use CAMC-certified idiots to fill in at a lower wage which IMO dumbs down the entire profession. Where I come from and the company I work for, CAMC certs won't fly, and good, skilled licensed guys are hard to come by. More AMEs need to jump onboard and snuff out that dirtbag organization in order for AMEs to make any forward progress, they are a cancer on the industry.

[hoptwoit]

While I certainly like what I read with regards to the definition of restriced trade I can't help but notice that a hair stylist is a restricted trade

Sorry to dig this up old gem again but...
The other day I was getting a haircut and in walked a representative from the Trades board of the province. They wanted to see all trade and apprentiship documentation of the hairstylists. So I had to ask. Why it this classed a restricted trade? The answer is "public health" Razors combs and other haircutting instruments can spread infections lice and disease throughout the public.

[pilotdreams]

If you want to make big money, work for a company that makes big money.