Sunwing 767's...?

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yycflyguy
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by yycflyguy »

No other fk'n airline requires a type rating.
Southwest does. Yes, I know they are not Canadian.
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trey kule
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by trey kule »

I could give a list of dozens of airlines around the world that require type ratings for contract work..This is just the first one in Canada and those that cant think past the nose of the plane simply dont get what is happening in the big old world of aviation. Also, if you look at a job ads you will even see more than the odd 703/704 requireing a type rating or PPC.

Now mb.....I am tho sowry dat I hurt your itty bitty feelings and you felt the need to lash out...It definitely demonstrates the quality of your ability to reason and make effective arguments.
As to your claim to not respond or check yourself into the loonie bin...Yeah....I believe that...Lets see if it has the same intregity as your other claims.

I believe you have not aspirations or desire to fly for SunWing.. Besides, I think they have a pre-loonie bin screening process,and like most airlines, dont care much for pilots who share your method of dealing with disagreement. Most airlines I am familiar with, dont really want that kind of person in the cockpit...Maybe you should rail against them.

You hit the nail on the head..This is about competition...And that is fine with me if you want to discuss that. But dont come on here and play the descrimination card. The only reason I initially responded was because someone put up a fraudulant, or at least misleading ad, for sunwings in the free job section, and it was actually trying to casitgate SunWings and call to action all discriminated against Canadian pilots...That is disgusting in my mind, and there is no way you or anyone else can justify that type of action.. Same with a similar post popping up here and there...
It tells me what kind of people are really behind this campaign...Bad company....So that justifies the use of any method at all. No need to worry about legal or ethical..No need to be civil if someone disagrees...Shout them down so to speak.

Best of luck to you in whatever career you seek MB...I think you are going to need it. No need to respond. I assume you dont want to be checking yourself into a mental institution. :smt040
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aerosexual
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by aerosexual »

trey kule, the fact that some airlines the world over require type ratings is because they were able to get pilots to agree to this practice due to supply and demand. Sunwing would not be able to hire type rated Canadian pilots to fill their requirements, so they seek foreign pilots. However, hiring foreign pilots outside the scope of a reciprocal agreement is illegal, but somehow Sunwing has been able to work their way around this requirement.

This seems to be acceptable to you - both the fact that this is illegal and they are getting away with it, and how much damage this causes to other airlines who are trying to play in a level playing field.

Why some people think this is acceptable is beyond me.
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

aerosexual wrote:trey kule, the fact that some airlines the world over require type ratings is because they were able to get pilots to agree to this practice due to supply and demand. Sunwing would not be able to hire type rated Canadian pilots to fill their requirements, so they seek foreign pilots. However, hiring foreign pilots outside the scope of a reciprocal agreement is illegal, but somehow Sunwing has been able to work their way around this requirement.

This seems to be acceptable to you - both the fact that this is illegal and they are getting away with it, and how much damage this causes to other airlines who are trying to play in a level playing field.

Why some people think this is acceptable is beyond me.
That sums it up pretty well, aerosexual. Well done!

Also, a previous poster was referring to the fact that many Canadians are flying on contracts overseas and that the local pilots weren't complaining about it. May I refer you to this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4821 ... urope.html

This might enlighten you a bit on what is going to happen in a very near future in Europe...
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trey kule
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by trey kule »

Well, it seems in a bit of drawn out way, we have come to the truth of the matter...It is about competition with other airlines. I hope all the pilots that bought into the descrimination thing are realizing they were duped. Your co operation was solicited to try and make it easier for other companies to compete with SunWings..The cynic in me thinks that if some other companies could figure out a way to pattern their business after this business model, a few less people would be posting here about the unfairness of it all.

Now, it was posted that what SunWings was doing was illegal? Exactly who is saying it is illegal? The courts.
The police? The regulators? or......a disgruntled competitor posting it as fact. Please clarify who claims, besides yourself and a few other AvCanada legal experts exactly who is claiming this is illegal. The argument seems principally to be on how efforts to hire or train Canadian pilots is interpretted. And that is a matter for the courts to determine before it is posted as fact. If it was, in fact illegal, it would be stopped without all this 'write the minister' nonsense.

There is no doubt where I live and work that the local folks would like to see the overpaid contractor pilots gone, though they do like to use our payscales as a benchmark target, ignoring some of the economic realities. We will be gone, just as eventually the foreign devils who come to work for SunWings will also be gone. It is the evolution of the business, and the fact north america is a mature market in relative comparison to some other parts of the world.
But tell it for what it is.

In any event, I think most people here will have seen this for what it is , so no need to continue to disagree.

But is still does not give anyone justification to pretend it is about poor Canadian pilots being descriminated against, which is absolutely not true...Or justification to start posting fraudulant job ads in the employment section of AvCanada.
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Last edited by trey kule on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
contrite
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by contrite »

...
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Planefreak2186
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Planefreak2186 »

WOW.... I seem to have started a feud... :smt014 :smt014
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

cyrus wrote:Another interesting fact...there has never been any mention in this or any other thread about CanJet's hiring practices. They are under contract of Air Transat and they are employing foreign pilots! Hmmmmmm, very interesting. Albeit, not quite as many foreign pilots as Sunwing, but then again, they have yet to send one Canadian pilot to Europe on a reciprocal deal. For those of you at Transat that are continually bashing Sunwing, perhaps you should get your own house in order before you go out dictating how Sunwing should operate. If you didn't sub your work out to CanJet, you wouldn't be laying off pilots.
Really ? Posted by myself on July 11 and it was not the first. I am an Air Transat pilot.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82629
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:There is no shortage of qualified and experienced pilots in Canada!

I am categorically against the use of R203(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations to hire Foreign Nationals as temporary workers to work in Canada as pilots if the airlines, when advertising for pilots, require a Type-Rating as a pre-requisite. There is no shortage of qualified pilots in Canada and the ruses which some airlines use to obtain an LMO from HRSDC in order to secure work permits for foreign pilots is nothing short of dishonest.
Clear enough ?

I am 100 per cent against requiring a Type Rating as a condition of employment. If it becomes acceptable for Canjet and Sunwing to do it, soon Air Canada, Jazz, Westjet, Air Transat and all the other will do it.

I am however for the reciprocity agreements as Sunwing has on file with Canadian Immigration but that it does not respect. I don't mind one bit if 200 TUI pilots come to work for Sunwing next winter, as long as TUI employs 200 Canadian pilots in Europe in the Summer. But that has not been happening, even though this is what Sunwing leads CIC to believe.

Air Transat has been very successful in dealing with the Canadian tourist market over the years. It did not get where is it now by following an outdated business model quite the contrary.

First of all it is false to claim that the Canadian tourist market is in winter only. It's just the only part that Sunwing can cater to for the time being with its fleet of 737s. In the summer, there is a large market for Trans-Atlantic tourist travel that Air Transat caters to with it's wide body aircraft. Air Transat had to chose models of aircraft that could do both. Although the wide-bodies are not ideal for the winter market, at least they can perform those flights and have been doing so for 25 years. It allows Air Transat aircraft and employees to have year around employment.

Sunwing on the other hand, chose to operate an aircraft that cannot do the European flights and can only cater to the winter clientele. So with the help of parent company TUI, its aircraft and its pilots, it clobbers away at Air Transat by flooding the winter market with overcapacity. It does this by operating a small fleet year round, 7 to 9, and increasing that to 24 to 29 in winter, according to which year you look at. This strategy of denying Transat its winter market is meant to make it fail and leave the year round market to Sunwing.

This does not mean Sunwing is not interested in the Europe market. It just caters to it with European aircraft and crews through agreements with several European Airlines to which it lends its Canadian Status.
Sunwing Airlines Inc. (Sunwing) and TUI Airlines Nederland B.V. (TUI) have applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) for an approval topermitSunwingto provide its scheduled international service betweenCanadaandthe Netherlandsby selling transportation in its own name on flightsoperated by TUI between Canada and the Netherlands,for an indefinite period, commencing on June 26,2011.
Sunwing Airlines Inc. (Sunwing), on behalf of itself and Euroatlantic Airways – Transportes Aéreos S.A. carrying on business as Euroatlantic Airways (Euroatlantic), has applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) for an approval to permit Sunwing to provide its scheduled international services between Canada and member states of the European Community using aircraft and flight crew provided by Euroatlantic, from June 11 to September 10, 2012.
Sunwing Airlines Inc. (Sunwing), on behalf of itself and Corsair carrying on business as Corsairfly (Corsair), has applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) for an approval to permit Corsair to provide its scheduled international service between France and Canada by selling transportation in its own name on flights operated by Sunwing between France and Canada, for a period of three years or such longer period as may be authorized by the Agency, commencing on June 11, 2012.
This "business model" that Sunwing is using is hurting Transat and may well cause it to go under. Then what ? Is Sunwing going to lease full time widebodies and hire hundreds of Canadian pilots to fly them to Europe as Air Transat does now ? If they do, what will they do with them in the winter when the Europe flying dies off and when the 737s are needed ? I think you all see the light now. For those who refuse to see it, let me spell it out.

TUI owned airlines in Europe have high seasons that are opposite to Canada's. TUI owns over 150 aircraft. The single aisle aircraft are in high demand in summer and many are idle in winter, so they and their pilots are sent to Canada. The TUI wide-bodies are in high demand in winter and less so in summer. So they will be sent to Canada in the summer. So expect to see more TUI-owned single aisle aircraft in Canada in winter along with their TUI pilots, and more TUI-owned wide-bodies in Canada in the summer also with their TUI pilots. Exactly what is already going on now. The great Sunwing Business model. Sunwing is and will continue, for TUI, to be a Canadian shell that will give all of of TUIs activities in Canada some Canadian legitimacy.

As for Canadian pilots ? Well they are in high demand in the UAE.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

cyrus wrote: Suppose that Sunwing did hire all Canadian pilots for the winter program (I might add that their fleet goes from 9 planes in the summer which includes 3 that are flying in Europe, to 24 in the winter) and suppose there was enough flying in the summer to get all of these people line indoc'ed at around 100 hours each, and suppose they had the capacity in their training department to do such a feat....I can only imagine the bitching and complaining that would take place here about the fact that Sunwing laid off 300 pilots and that you were all out of work! Sunwing has made every attempt to hire as many "FULL TIME" pilots as they can afford to carry in the summer months, and subsidize their winter flying with foreign pilots. That's the type of business they are in...Vacation travel. Most Canadians vacation in the winter months when it is cold and shitty out. To top it all off, it doesn't help matters that after interviewing some of these young, energetic, keeners, that they decide to bail on the very company that gave them their shot at a big jet (relatively speaking) just months after completing their training to go fly for AC, WJ, etc. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the day that Sunwing can support 450+ pilots all year round, but more importantly, I admire the fact that they don't hire and lay-off every six months. They provide stability in the pilot market whether you want to believe it or not. Imagine your feeling of getting hired, trained, and then laid off just to flip burgers (oh yeah, you can't go back to your old job because they replaced you when you left) for the next six months. Time to wake up boys and girls...aviation is changing...if you don't adapt, you will be left behind. Also, it is funny that AC is looking at hiring offshore for their Low Cost Carrier...maybe Sunwing is onto something, but as TreyKule said, there are WAAAAYYYYY more Canadians flying abroad than there are foreigners flying in Canada, so if you push hard enough, those individuals will be coming home and you can bet your ass that they will get hired at Sunwing long before someone with considerably less experience. Another interesting fact...there has never been any mention in this or any other thread about CanJet's hiring practices.
Cyrus
Air Transat used to hire seasonal pilots and did lay pilots off, twice a year even. When I was hired in 1998, I was warned at my interview that I was subject to being laid off during the low seasons. Some pilots got laid off several times by Air Transat since they first got hired and those that stuck around and came back now have a full time and stable job.

Transat also attempted to do aircraft swaps with European Carriers for several years. We would send a couple A-330s and L-1011 to Europe in winter and get 737s and A-320 in exchange. Unlike Sunwing though we tried not to swap pilots. We trained European pilots to fly our L-1011 and A-330 and the European 737s and A-320 were put on Canadian registry and flown by our own pilots. These pilots would switch aircraft types twice a year.

Never did Air Transat use foreign pilots as Canjet and Sunwing do now.

Now one of my previous posts on another thread.
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Air Transat does not hire foreign pilots.
Transat AT, not Air Transat, is under contract with Canjet for Wet-Leases, like the had been in the past with WestJet. At least Canjet and Westjet are Canadian Companies, which we can credit Transat for.

Transat owns no shares in Canjet or vice-versa. The same way Transat had no say in how Westjet ran its company when the two companies were linked by contractual agreements, Transat has no say in how Canjet runs its company today. They are totally distinct, unlike the TUI-Sunwing-Thomson etc relationship.

This being said, last year Canjet hired 31 foreign pilots under LMOs. I am 100 per cent against the practice, want to see it stopped by all companies. I would prefer to see Canjet either hire temporary Canadian pilots for the winter season or enter into a reciprocal agreement with European carriers to import additional pilots in the winter, carriers that would hire an equal number of Canadian pilots in the summer.
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Planefreak2186
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Planefreak2186 »

:smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 :smt014 ....!!!!!

Group HUG :smt008 :smt008 :smt008 :smt008
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Localizer
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Localizer »

Sorry .. no group hugs .. Sadly our government believes 100% in the capitalist mindset regardless of the potential downfall. We allow foreign pilots to take Canadian jobs, we allow the purchase of a Canadian company to a U.S firm that closes the doors and boots the employees out on the street in favour of moving the work to a "right to work" state at less then 50% of the previous compensation. We allow foreign entities to purchase our natural resources for next to nothing and then buy it back at double sometimes triple the price.
i
Its time for the typical Canadian who likes to avoid conflict with their heads in the sand to stand up and get involved. Its not just one group that's under attack .. we're all feeling the head and all need to get involved.
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Airbusfan
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Re: Sunwing 767's...?

Post by Airbusfan »

SOUND'S LIKE ORIGINAL POSTER STARTED AN WAR, OR THIS IS JUST A HIJACKING !!!!!!!!!

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG...
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