What to do....CPL, no mifr.

[justwanttofly]

Good Day,

I have run short on funding while doing my instructor rating and now trying to weigh my options. After a not so pleasant experience with a Class one I have lost interest in flying to a certain degree. Seeing as I cannot find a job with just a CPL, I have been considering saving for my mifr and finding a ramp job.

Any suggestions?

Regards,

Justwanttofly

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm really sorry you had a bad experience with a class 1 instructor. I suspect the fault may not be entirely yours - from what I have seen, there are many people holding a class 1 rating that really shouldn't be.

As for your future ... I don't think anyone can tell you what is the best (instructor, MIFR, ramp) for you. Only you know what the answer really is.

I apologize if that sounds somewhat obscure and Yoda-like, but what someone else likes may be hell on earth for you, and vice versa.

[Beefitarian]

Why did you want to be an instructor?

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm really sorry you had a bad experience with a class 1 instructor. I suspect the fault may not be entirely yours - from what I have seen, there are many people holding a class 1 rating that really shouldn't be.

+1

Its very unfortunate that this seems to be getting worse rather than better.

[trey kule]

I think Beefster's question is one you should be asking yourself...Becoming an instructor should not be a carreer move just to build hours.. If you really want to become an instructor then you will find another class 1 and get it done.

Make sure, however, that it really is your instructor that is the problem.

By asking the question it seems to me that you are not really motivated to be an instructor, which brings us back to Beef's question...it is a good one

As an aside, a year or so ago I wanted to renew my instructor rating. Talked to three class ones (all CFIs). I was dumbfounded by their total lack of professionalism.. Not one of them...Not one....asked me what type of license I held, what type of time I had, whether I was current...But two of them went on to mention that it would take me some time to learn to fly from the right seat again (not sure how they came to that conclusion, at all). Told me I would have to do basically the whole course again...not one of them suggested maybe going for a flight and see how I could fly and instruct and then come up with a plan...

As an aside, I had a chat with the local TC training people who were extremely helpful. And they are very much aware of the situation with regard to poor class 1s.....but try as they might, they cant get rid of CS

[Colonel Sanders]

That's pretty funny ...

But you see what I mean about the quality of class 1 instructors?! They have an awful lot of responsibility, and a lot of them do a pretty crappy job.

FWIW I had an ATPL and 2500 hrs and significant experience outside the circuit before I finally got a class 1 instructor rating, years ago.


TK: to get your instructor rating back, you need to do the written again, and then review your "book" of PGI for each lesson, then review the flight lessons, then do a flight test. Not a big deal, depending upon how much instruction you did, and how many decades ago. FIG and FTM is the same. CARs are different from the PLH. Biggest difference is probably the changes in the flight test guides - exercises and tolerances. For example, no more spin on the PPL flight test. Got rid of that in the mid 90's.

[dave_091]

I'd consider myself not a brand new pilot but I have no where near as much experience as a lot of people on here. However, one thing I have noticed with a lot of ( definetely not all) schools is that they are thinking first about how much money they can milk and squeeze out of you then its about getting you your ratings, endorsements, etc.

Trey Kule: Perhaps, they looked at you and saw dollar signs. A responsible class 1 would sit down and spend at least 5 minutes to see where you stand, rather than TELL you where you stand before a meeting and a flight together.

my 2 cents

[dave_091]

For example, no more spin on the PPL flight test. Got rid of that in the mid 90's.

I am sure if I dug into it I could find the answer to my question but I am going to ask it anyway. Why did they get rid of testing spins on the PPL flight test? Seems like a fairly important thing to know properly!

[trey kule]

First.. CS...Glad you saw the humour. I hesitated as I thought you might take offense.
Thanks for the advice..Unfortunately they keep changing the regulations and policies on letting the geriatric set keep flying, so it will be a year or so before I plan to get it done now...

Second..Dave...I dont know about the dollar signs...I think maybe it is just a case of being treated like a god by students and instructors for awhile that they believe they have the answers and dont need to ask the questions..True enough, five minutes of asking a few questions might have gone a long way.

Spins...here is the thing about spins..In real life they seldom happen at high altitude, and if they are not intentional, the surprise reaction time and the close proximity of the ground make the outcome pretty much certain...Most stall/spin accidents occur during low level manouevering, and outside the FTU, many many planes are flying that wont recover from a spin...So the real emphasis should be put on low level manouevering safely, understanding of the effect of bank on stall speeds etc..Not on how to horse a poor old 172 into a spin at 2500AGL. Personally I see nothing wrong with spending a bit of time doing them , but the empahsis should be on not unintentionally stalling the plane.
As I understood it, they were removed from the syllabus because TC came to a similar conclusion. But then a blip up in stall/spin accidents and they are back..I sometimes wonder if it is because a great many pilots dont like doing them, and thus it makes them more respectful and aware of getting into one, or because a great many pilots dont like doing them, and the aircraft manufacturers want to sell planes./
Unless you are going to spend time involving yourself in aerobatics, most pilots will never do a spin again once out of training. But they will all get themselves into low level, slow speed manoueveing.

Lastly, the Class 1 rating (instructor) is not what it used to be, and I dont say that as in the good ol' days.(same as the ATPL) The problem , of course is the rating is the prime, and sometimes only criteria for a CFI. Supervisory ability? Management? Up to the company hiring them,, and some companies dont look past the rating as hiring criteria.
A bit of a shortage and it is easy to not look past the rating. I think it is quite possible to get a class 1 instructor rating with very limited real experience, and the best I have seen in my career were those that were ex-military or had experience outside the FTU. Imagine training instructors to teach students when you have only a few hours of actual cross country experience outside the FTU triangle. Talking to CPLs about type conversions when you have never flown a turbine, or even anything over 12,500 pounds. There are class ones out there that fall into these catagories.

[Rowdy Burns]

That's pretty funny ...

But you see what I mean about the quality of class 1 instructors?! They have an awful lot of responsibility, and a lot of them do a pretty crappy job.

FWIW I had an ATPL and 2500 hrs and significant experience outside the circuit before I finally got a class 1 instructor rating, years ago.

Haha that is funny, I got my Class I before my A and had just over the min. 750 hrs instructing (so <1000 hrs total). I hope I didn't steer my Class IV candidates too far off course. Although I sent a few away too so I never had a chance to confuse and mislead them

[Colonel Sanders]

I guess I'm just a slow learner compared to you, Rowdy!

PS I know of a retired 3-leaf (Lieutenant) General, RCAF.
Used to run Fighter Command, was deputy NORAD
commander. He's only a class 2 instructor, and is a current
CFI at an FTU. He's a really slow learner compared to you!
Maybe you could stop by and teach him a few things?

[Shiny Side Up]

Lastly, the Class 1 rating (instructor) is not what it used to be, and I dont say that as in the good ol' days.(same as the ATPL) The problem , of course is the rating is the prime, and sometimes only criteria for a CFI. Supervisory ability? Management? Up to the company hiring them,, and some companies dont look past the rating as hiring criteria.
A bit of a shortage and it is easy to not look past the rating. I think it is quite possible to get a class 1 instructor rating with very limited real experience, and the best I seen in my career were those that were ex-military or had experience outside the FTU. Imagine training instructors to teach students when you have only a few hours of actual cross country experience outside the FTU triangle. Talking to CPLs about type conversions when you have never flown a turbine, or even anything over 12,500 pounds. There are class ones out there that fall into these catagories.

This is where I think you're mistaking the role of CFI and the role of a class 1. A lot of the class ones out there I know aren't CFIs if that makes sense, and if you can stay busy enough as a class 1, I would tend to reccomend getting out of the role of the CFI. You're right in that in many cases they wear both hats. The main problem these day I think is that indeed there are a lot of people pressed into service as a class one who really don't want to do it, but because there is an operational demand to train new instructors. The idea that you can mass produce new class 4s is going to be a poor one, they're more like training children, they need a lot of your undivided attention, though there are advantages to having a cooperative small group of two or three. With the problem of mass producing instructors, I do think transport is not being very vigilant in its testing system, both for new class 1s and of course their products - the system has been corrupted somewhat in that regard. I know from experience that there are a few in TC who got no business testing the class ones or fours - but were former mediocre class ones and previous to that fours themselves.

PS I know of a retired 3-leaf (Lieutenant) General, RCAF.
Used to run Fighter Command, was deputy NORAD
commander. He's only a class 2 instructor, and is a current
CFI at an FTU. He's a really slow learner compared to you!
Maybe you could stop by and teach him a few things?

What, is he crazy? He should be out enjoying life instead. Man should be nominated for sainthood.

[Colonel Sanders]

Man should be nominated for sainthood

Yeah, I know. He is insane, in a good way. Spent a career in the RCAF and rose to Lt-Gen, retired. Got bored, became a CEO of a multi-national corporation. Retired, became C.F.I. and now works sixteen hour days at the FTU. My hat is off to him. And Gerry Younger, who still gives Pitts dual at the age of eighty.

that there are a few in TC who got no business testing the class ones or fours - but were former mediocre class ones and previous to that fours themselves

and the problem is that you simply can't ever get rid of them, as you could at a private sector corporation.

[trey kule]

This is where I think you're mistaking the role of CFI and the role of a class 1

I actually was not confusing the two, but I reread my posts and I understand what gave you that impression.
It had to do with my dealing with CFIs who all happen to be class 1's....and I am not referring to their instructor ratings.

I admire anyone who retires and puts that experience to use passing on their wisdom... Particularily someone with some management experience and an instructors rating

As to TC, I will have to accept others words..My very limited experience with them a year or so ago was very positive. And as I happened to have flown with one of them many many years ago, I know what type of backgound experience he brought to the job.
It may be, like many things in TC, that individuality is crushed like a bug.. Employees must confirm to whatever the official flavor of the month is...Most good people leave. Others buckle under the system..No good can come of that kind of culture.
So many times in my experience I have heard an inspector admit that some new type of implementation or procedure is flawed but they are forced to make it happen. I lose a little respect for a person that thinks like that, but I understand them putting their livelihood ahead of their moral values. And so many time some new type of implementaion being forced upon the unwashed masses for their own good, is not even a regulation at the time..TC is just pushing it pretending it is a law or regulation...Anyone remember SMS in small operations?

Now back on topic..To the OP...If you want to instruct.....then save up, remember the lessons learned, and go for it.
If you are just instructing to build hours as a stepping stone in your career, do the future flight students a favor, and take a different route...I dont buy the whole....Yes it is about hours in the logbook, but I will really do a good job in the meantime...Have not seen that in practice in very many cases.

[Slats]

Seeing as I cannot find a job with just a CPL

Why not?

Single piston day VFR jobs are good for you. Contrary to popular belief, they are very much indeed, real jobs. They tend to improve your flying skills more than ramp jobs. And with the money you earn, you can save towards your MIFR.

And it's fun!

[Beefitarian]

You won't answer questions and took options off the poll? Yeah you'll be a terrific instructor.

[justwanttofly]

I was becoming an instructor because I enjoy teaching, and flying. I was initially in university becoming a teacher and found teaching something I wouldn't enjoy frustrating, so I left university and pursued my CPL. I was actually considering making a career out of it.

One of the poll topics were taken down because I am not considering quitting flying. I am not sure why people would select that as an option without knowing the circumstances.

I think changing instructors would be my best option as I feel there was a major personality conflict. Unfortunately I did not see this until I realized that it was not only me with this problem with this instructor, and ran short of money.

I also wouldn't mind finding a VFR job in the mean time. Does anyone know of any companies that hire VFR guys to fly a 172 or 206?

Justwanttofly

[Beefitarian]

Ok.

Now take down that Flight Instuctor option before it wins the voting and you end up stuck baby sitting some dick like me. Dudes who like to drag you along to practice X-wind landings on gravel because we've got no friends and refuse to study enough pass a simple multiple choice exam.

You pretty much have to be relentless looking for entry level single engine jobs. Are you up for going to the middle of no where and doing some near slave labour?

[Beefitarian]

Seriously, get a job as an apprentice plumber. Do new constuction and you'll most likely never see sewage which surprisingly isn't as bad as you'd expect if you do. Use the money to continue flight training until you get a flying job good enough that you'll take the huge pay cut.

[Slats]

I also wouldn't mind finding a VFR job in the mean time. Does anyone know of any companies that hire VFR guys to fly a 172 or 206?

Justwanttofly

Canada is lousy with such operators. A few minutes spent with the super handy search function over at pilotcareercentre.com will most certainly yield many many dividends.

And yes, hard work and living in out of the way places may be required, but that stuff never killed anyone and the benefits reaped from the PIC time gained will become evident at a later job when you look to your right and see one of your contemporaries who worked the ramp while you were gaining captain experience.

[Shiny Side Up]

and the problem is that you simply can't ever get rid of them, as you could at a private sector corporation.

No the problem was that the system as it is, doesn't weed them out before they get there. The private sector isn't doing its job either, its one of those problems with the free market - the customer in this case isn't concerned enough with quality, or more likely doesn't know how to spot quality (or likely both) so that those who serve up a bad product manage to compete successfully with those who serve a good one. Unfortunately flight instructors don't sink or swim by the quality of their service.

[Sulako]

In answer to the OP's question - how about getting your float rating? You can fly SE VFR til you decide you want something different.

[Rowdy Burns]

I guess I'm just a slow learner compared to you, Rowdy!

PS I know of a retired 3-leaf (Lieutenant) General, RCAF.
Used to run Fighter Command, was deputy NORAD
commander. He's only a class 2 instructor, and is a current
CFI at an FTU. He's a really slow learner compared to you!
Maybe you could stop by and teach him a few things?

Hahaha as if I could! I never pretended to be the most competent to teach students (let alone instructors) even if a peice of paper said I was qualified. But your friend (and yourself) seem to be a rare breed. I have known some very experienced pilots, and some really good instructors, but not many that are both.

[Colonel Sanders]

Off the top of my head, Sean Tucker and Mike Goulian and Rob Holland
are all superb airshow pilots and are current flight instructors and either
currently run or have run flight schools. Mike also competitively raced
Red Bull - not sure if that cuts much slack with your crowd or not ...

My point is that south of the border, there is not the stigma associated
with holding a flight instructor rating that there is in Canada. I do not
know why in Canada it is considered a mark of shame - like having
genital warts, or herpes - to hold a flight instructor rating. Frankly I
do not care. I was told that I have stopped an awful lot of airframes
from being wrecked, and I cannot think of higher praise.

[Rowdy Burns]

My point is that south of the border, there is not the stigma associated
with holding a flight instructor rating that there is in Canada. I do not
know why in Canada it is considered a mark of shame - like having
genital warts, or herpes - to hold a flight instructor rating. Frankly I
do not care. I was told that I have stopped an awful lot of airframes
from being wrecked, and I cannot think of higher praise.

I agree that flight training in Canada does seem to take alot of abuse. I trully admire those who dare to go to the teaching side of it, furthermore those who stick to it, and especially those who return to it when they don't have to.